[Development] Map Suggestions

Hey Krieger, wonderful as always, I think you made the best out of what was possible with the map, but I'm puzzled why there was so little space for cities in a country that is quite big in real life. So I was checking and, it turns out for some reason Colombia is way smaller than other countries. I think it might be squeezed vertically. It would be easiest if you check (since you have all the continent mapped out with the cultural borders) but, for example, I counted 24 tiles for Colombia vs 50 for Peru, while in reality they're about the same size (1.1 vs 1.2 million km2). Not sure about what's the ratio for other countries in the continent, and I do get that Peru should be bigger because of the Incas, but the ratio seems disproportionate, and, regardless of that proportions issue, as the map is now, a city on the spices would basically cover all the land tiles west of the Andes where 95% of Colombia's population lives, while I guess ideally, Bogotá, Cartagena, and Pasto should have no or little overlap in their city radius.
 
Hey Krieger, wonderful as always, I think you made the best out of what was possible with the map, but I'm puzzled why there was so little space for cities in a country that is quite big in real life. So I was checking and, it turns out for some reason Colombia is way smaller than other countries. I think it might be squeezed vertically. It would be easiest if you check (since you have all the continent mapped out with the cultural borders) but, for example, I counted 24 tiles for Colombia vs 50 for Peru, while in reality they're about the same size (1.1 vs 1.2 million km2). Not sure about what's the ratio for other countries in the continent, and I do get that Peru should be bigger because of the Incas, but the ratio seems disproportionate, and, regardless of that proportions issue, as the map is now, a city on the spices would basically cover all the land tiles west of the Andes where 95% of Colombia's population lives, while I guess ideally, Bogotá, Cartagena, and Pasto should have no or little overlap in their city radius.

Thanks! Yeah, Colombia, in addition to almost everything north of Quito (which is in the Equator line) to the Caribbean are compressed vertically when compared to southern parts of the continent. While most of the area is the Amazon (which is not very populated) and thus this distortion could be justified, the Colombian Andes are affected and we have this problem.

Ideally, I think we would need to add another title roll in the area right north of Equator line (which would give an additional 7 titles for Colombia), but I don't know if this is feaseable given that would affect all Americas and close the Atlantic-Pacific pass in the south. Perhaps we could distort Ecuador one title south, but this would affect the Incas and possibly the shape of South America.

So I don't have an easy solution for this problem I would love some feedback. I will try put Ecuador 1S, but I'm afraid this will make new distortions in the map as well demand changes in the Amazon rivers. As a middle way, we could add additional food resources in Colombia, so the few cities there grow larger.
 
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What about cutting a line out of Patagonia to keep that passage open and/or also moving North America north by one or two tiles? it's not really about having sufficiently big cities for balance purposes, but about having choices as player about how to use the territory. Do you think a single additional tile would be sufficient? It seemed rather like two were missing.
 
Surely two titles would be better, but most of the area would be used for jungle titles in the Brazilian Amazon, so I'd rather add only one line there. Also I'm little reticent to cut one line in Patagonia because I think that it is probably one of the most polished areas in the continent.

I like the idea of cutting a line in North America to add it here, though. I'm not very familiar with North American geography, but I don't think that would have much impact there if we take away one of the northmost lines in Artic zone.
 
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I reread the updates in the Alternative Map thread and collected a number of nitpicking suggestions based on the screenshots (I don't have access to the full map right now and I value posts with screenshots a lot!):
  • Move the marsh tile that is currently 1N of New Orleans to the tile 1W of New Orleans. The bayous of Louisiana are in the southern, coastal part of the state.
  • Add islands 1S of New Orleans to better depict the complicated geography of the Mississippi delta.
  • Add oil to central California. The US has a lot of oil already, but this was a major area of production.
  • Add marshes near the Tigris-Euphrates junction, 1E of Ur (or alternatively 1NE of Ur, i.e. 1W of Shush) to represent the Mesopotamian marshes and provide texture to Mesopotamia.
  • (As an aside: speaking of Mesopotamia, is it feasible/a good idea for the northernmost tile of the Persian gulf to become a land tile at some date, representing the shift of the coastline? Ur used to be a coastal city but is now far inland. The oil would then have to be moved away from that tile.)
I will surely have more eventually.
 
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I've implemented the changes discussed before. Looking at the Artic cycle, I've noticed that it had two lines of ice on top of the map. So I decided to remove one and move all Americas 1N from the Equator (Quito to Amapá) on, adding an land line exactly above it. The results were quite good, as you can see:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG



As you can see, now we are able to reduce the distortion in north South America and also slightly improve the continent shape, although it didn't give that much of land to solve all mentioned issues in Colombia, nonetheless there is now less overlap between major cities.

Finally, the impact in North America seems to be minimal (I only removed one tundra title in Alaska to avoid a land connection with Russia) and the area still look like it was before. The only downside that I noticed is that some North American rivers became somewhat weird because they've changed their flow, but I think this could be easily solved.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

 
Looks much better indeed, and the impact on North America is negligible! If you think it could still benefit South America to have a proper shape, there's still room to push NA more towards the North.

Do you think moving Bogotá one tile east would put it out of place (in reference to Maracaibo and Cartagena)? I'd expect everything outside of the Andes to be without cities, so that could make better sense. We could also turn the three coastal tiles west of Medellín (W, NW, SW) into jungles (not rainforests) to hinder any cities there. Colombia doesn't have any cities in the (north part) of its Pacific Coast. Although, if indeed we move Bogotá east, then perhaps it would be nice to be able to found Medellín on the coast. Just throwing thoughts out there.

edit: corrected east of Medellín to west* of Medellín
 
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I am totally digging that lagoon Maracaibo! I also hope this will allow a much bigger Bogota. This is so great, thank you for all the work, @Krieger-FS!
 
Looks much better indeed, and the impact on North America is negligible! If you think it could still benefit South America to have a proper shape, there's still room to push NA more towards the North.

Do you think moving Bogotá one tile east would put it out of place (in reference to Maracaibo and Cartagena)? I'd expect everything outside of the Andes to be without cities, so that could make better sense. We could also turn the three coastal tiles east of Medellín (E, NE, SE) into jungles (not rainforests) to hinder any cities there. Colombia doesn't have any cities in the (north part) of its Pacific Coast. Although, if indeed we move Bogotá east, then perhaps it would be nice to be able to found Medellín on the coast. Just throwing thoughts out there.

I second that, at least the tile 1NW of Medellín should be jungle, it being the Darién Gap specifically.
 
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Today we've got Scandinavia.
Spoiler West :
west.jpg

Resource changes are in pink, tile changes in light green, moorland added in dark green. Cities placed for reference. Oslo, Bergen, Copenhagen, Stockholm, and Trondheim all feel essential to me, others can vary. I think all these cities as well as up the southern coast to Lulea should be core, tundra north coast should be historical along with Finland.
First off, Norway is a huge oil producer, I didn't think that only one offshore was sufficient so another has been added off of Trondheim. I believe the other whale was already there I just moved it. Aluminum added to Bergen as Norway is a exporter today, combined with the one near Sundvall allows trading. I put the silver back north of Oslo, Norway has operated silver mines back to the Viking days and traded with silver jewelry. I placed sheep southeast of Oslo as it could use another food resource and lamb is a prominent feature in some Scandinavian dishes, I believe Oslo had sheep on the old map as well. The copper near Stockholm has been replaced with Iron. Scandinavia has always been famous for metalwork and Sweden is still a big iron producer (and an auto manufacturer) today. South of Sweden are potatoes, they should appear around 1700/1750. Potatoes are important in Scandinavian food and Stockholm could use a third food resource in the late game. Speaking of which, I removed the fish off Copenhagen and added an island. There shouldn't be a way to pass into the Baltic sea without hitting islands. Islands have also been added to the top of Jutland to fill out Denmark's shape though they may not matter as no city can reach them. I moved the cow north to free up Ribe (Denmark's oldest city) while pig has been added 1n of Ribe. Most of Jutland's land is farms and pork rounds out the Scandinavian diet and fills out the removed fish resource. Might make sense to add it back as Stockholm and Copenhagen are about the same size today and each could have three food resources. Perhaps south of Malmo to give options if Kalmar or Malmo are settled.

Spoiler East :
east.jpg

Same rules here, except blue means "added river."
I moved the copper to 2n of Helsinki and changed the old tile to marsh to better fit Finland's interior. I think that Kemi should perhaps be Moorland as well.
 
The copper you removed represented the Falun Mine, one of the most important copper mines in Europe's history; it should definitely stay there! I'm not sure about historical patterns, but today the iron comes from northern Sweden, and there's enough iron there that two resources wouldn't be excessive. I don't know what the copper in the southwest is supposed to represent, if a metal resource has to go it could be this one.
 
Looks much better indeed, and the impact on North America is negligible! If you think it could still benefit South America to have a proper shape, there's still room to push NA more towards the North.

Do you think moving Bogotá one tile east would put it out of place (in reference to Maracaibo and Cartagena)? I'd expect everything outside of the Andes to be without cities, so that could make better sense. We could also turn the three coastal tiles west of Medellín (W, NW, SW) into jungles (not rainforests) to hinder any cities there. Colombia doesn't have any cities in the (north part) of its Pacific Coast. Although, if indeed we move Bogotá east, then perhaps it would be nice to be able to found Medellín on the coast. Just throwing thoughts out there.

edit: corrected east of Medellín to west* of Medellín

I second that, at least the tile 1NW of Medellín should be jungle, it being the Darién Gap specifically.

I think that moving Bogotá 1E would not put too much of out place.

In fact, reviewing the map (and looking specifically to the position of Hispaniola in reference to the Lake Maracaibo, which in my proposal is still identical to the map branch), I think that we could possibly shift everything from the proposed Bogotá title to 1N Vitória (in SE Brazil) 1E. This would not only give Colombia more space, giving a better representation of Magdalena basin (i.e., the Colombian core), but also would to leave Brazilian Amazon/Central-West less compressed and the east coast (from Bahia to Espírito Santo states) better shaped. On the downside, most of these added land titles in inland areas would be jungle and this change would reduce even more the distance between Africa and South America, which would be only four sea titles in diagonal (two oceans and two coasts) in closest distance (Natal-Dakar).

About the Colombian North Pacific coast, I chose rainforests for these titles purely for gameplay reasons, as if they were jungle we couldn't add the resources (bananas, coffee and sugar) nor build improvents. With the possible enlargement of the area, however, we could and surely should switch it to jungles for the reasons mentioned by both you.

I am totally digging that lagoon Maracaibo! I also hope this will allow a much bigger Bogota. This is so great, thank you for all the work, @Krieger-FS!

Thanks! Yeah, I was little reticent to add but it looked quite good. So I would like to thank Soul-breathing for the suggestion!
 
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Oh... well, I'm not sure compressing the Atlantic ocean even further would be good. If we were to choose, I think it's better to get the expansion of the Colombian core at the cost of the Amazon basin. But you should try whichever option you think will work best.

I think you can build improvements on jungle tiles with resources, just not cities though!
 
I'm not really sold to trade the arctic for northern South America, but compressing the Atlantic is definitely not what I want.
 
Not entirely opposed to taking a row from the arctic but I would rather see something that distorts the more and less important parts of the map within the current shape of the continent. At least as a comparison point. In this case maybe something can work at the expense of the Amazon rainforest.
 
I understand and agree with the "distortions policy" in DoC, however I don't think we can make much more room at the expense of Amazon, as it is already compressed in all sides. If we take more, Amazon rainforest might lose its huge scale. Besides, the Colombian issue, as I see, is more vertically related to the larger Andean valleys in Peru (needed for the Inca and which could be optionally compensated by the artic row for a better South American shape) and the need to proper represent, horizontally, the Magdalena basin.

Regarding the last, I think I can come with a solution at expense of the Guianas. JDowling's suggestion of moving the eastern South American coast 1E, which I fully embraced in my proposal, meaned the French Guiana basically doubled her size, and I think we could removed some titles there. Later I will make my post of Venezuela/Guianas with that proposal, which tries to solve at least the Colombian Magdalena area issue.
 
Now, about Venezuela and the Guianas, with the old map bellow:

Spoiler :

V Original.JPG

G Original.JPG



This region was the first mainland American area discovered and colonized by the Spanish. After the founding of few settlements in the area, the Spanish Habsburg crown ceded the colony for Augsburg bankers, who hoped to find El Dorado and its riches. After the failure of this German colony, the area was again Spanish, who limited the colonization mostly to coastal areas as there wasn't any easily source of gold and silver. By mid-18th century, Venezuela was part of the New Granada viceroyalty and some of the earlier efforts for independence began here, resulting in an constant period of warfare that devasted much of the country. By early 19th century, Venezuelan-born Simón Bolívar established the independent Gran Colombia republic, but the country soon divided and thus modern Venezuela emerged. The new country was plagued with political and economic instability during much of the century, becoming also one of the areas where the US and European powers disputed influence when the US was capable to effectively extent Monroe Doctrine to South America. During WW1, oil was discovered and soon became the main product of Venezuela, but most of the extraordinary riches were concentrated in the hands of few, usually the allies of the caudillo in power. Thus, during much of 20th century Venezuela continued to suffer from instability, with periods of growth and peace under a strongman or democratic government followed by crises, coups and armed insurgency, a pattern that seems to continue nowadays given the current crisis.

The Guianas are quite different in many senses from the other South American countries. While initially claimed by the Spanish, the area was largely left unoccupied (given the lack of accessible mineral wealth and indigenous hostility to Europeans) and the colonization really began in early 17th century, when the Dutch established the first colonies near the Essequibo river. In the following centuries, Britain and the Dutch fought and divided the colony between them, while the French successfully established their presence in the eastern region. The workforce was provided by African slaves, however after the abolition of slavery, the Dutch and British brought large number of Southeast Asians to work. This created an unique colonization in the Americas, and still today these countries have a large number of Indian, Javanese and other Asiatic populations, giving also a great religious diversity (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, African religions and Christian communities). The area only became independent with the decolonization process in mid-20th century with British and Dutch Guianas independence (respectively, modern Guyana and Suriname), while the French Guiana is still part of France (fun fact: the largest land border of modern France is with Brazil precisaly for this reason).

The new map:

Spoiler :

C enlarged.JPG

V.JPG

G.JPG



1) added a vertical roll of land 1E from Magdalena river mouth to Bogotá (Colombia), moving everything east at the expenses of French Guiana. The latter area, represented by four titles since TJDowling proposal (which moved all Brazilian coast 1E to better represent it) and with identical size to Suriname, is considerable smaller in real world (85.000 sq km to 165.000 sq km). As such, French Guiana became represented by only two titles, Maracaibo lake became directly south of middle Hispaniola (like the real world counterpart) while Colombian core was enlarged, allowing also a better representation of Magdalena.
2) turned Maracaibo lake into a lagoon. Changed the rivers to better represent the Orinoco basin, the most important in the region. Also removed the eastern lake, which in real world is the Guri Dam (built in the 1960s).
3) removed several marshes, so we can better represent the Venezuelan Llanos and Amazon.
4) placed several jungle/rainforests titles in the Guianas. These are remote regions in Amazon rainforest, that are mostly untouched by human activities even nowadays.


Resources:

Spoiler :

RV.JPG

RG.JPG



As an initial note, I should stress that I rearranged the resources in Colombia, putting them in the Magdalena basin (which was the area where most of the resources mentioned were cultivated in real world). The coal originally in Venezuela is also moved inside Colombia, as represents the major coal deposits in the north of the country.

Pre-colonial:
Pearls (1NW of Caracas): the Venezuelan Caribbean area was one of the most known pearl hunting area since colonial times.
Clam (1N of Caracas): fishing was important in the Caribbean since indigenous age and it is still an important sector of Venezuelan economy. I think that the clam is meant to represent its exploitation, but it could be alternatively any other sea food resource.
Potatoes (1W of Caracas): another resource exploited since the indigenous era. Alternatively could be a corn, as nowadays corn production overshadow potatoes in Venezuela.
Tobacco (1E of Caracas): Venezuela, like Colombia, had its agricultural production focused in cash crops during colonial age. The main economic cycles in Venezuela before oil were Cocoa beans (in colonial times) and coffee (19th century). Tobacco was actually the second product in these periods, however I chose it to be represented because I felt that these resources were already abundant in Colombia while there was quite little number of tobacco in South America that didn’t really represented its production importance in the whole continent. Alternatively, we could also add both cocoa and coffee, possibly spawning near Caracas in colonial/post-independence era.
Crab (1NW of Georgetown): represents the important shrimp fishing in Guyana.
Whales (1NW of Cayenne): I didn’t found many information about whaling in the Guianas, but what I could find was that the Guianas coast are often visited by whales in mating season and nowadays there is some concerns about their protection from human activities (like the use of fishing nets and pollution). Either way, I did maintained the resource here.
Spice (1S of Cayenne): during the colonial times, spice was an important economic product of the Guianas. The one here represents the Cayenne Pepper.

Colonial:
Cow (2S1W of Caracas): cattle was introduced by the Spanish and widely exploited in the llanos region.
Sugar (1E of Paramaribo): the main colonial product in the Guianas, since Dutch colonization, was sugar. In fact, apparently the Dutch ceded New Armsterdam (New York) for Britain because they considered the sugar plantations here more profitable than the fur commerce there.

Post-independence and modern:
4 Oil (1S of Maracaibo, 1SW and 1S2W of Caracas, Trinidad title): oil is, by far, the most important resource in modern Venezuela. The large number of resources are meant to represent its huge reserves, the largest in the world. I included another one in Trinidad because it also has substantial oil production.
Gold (1S of Georgetown): while initially the Spanish left the area unoccupied because they couldn’t find gold, nowadays the area is known for its mineral wealth. That’s why these resources only spawn in post-independence period. Guyana and Suriname have large gold mines in nowadays, which is their main exports and represented by this resource.
Aluminium (1SW of Paramaribo): the Guianas shield have large aluminium reserves and Suriname’s economy was quite dependent on bauxite mining during much of 20th century.


Finally, I will make some adjustments on the map and soon will include the map save here, so you all can better see and fully access the changes I've proposed. Also I'd like to thank you all for the suggestions and feedback, which greatly contributed for this final version of the South American proposal.
 
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(As an aside: speaking of Mesopotamia, is it feasible/a good idea for the northernmost tile of the Persian gulf to become a land tile at some date, representing the shift of the coastline? Ur used to be a coastal city but is now far inland. The oil would then have to be moved away from that tile.)
As far as I can tell, the current map is laid out based on the modern coastline, so if anything we should take away a land tile to return later. I see two problems with this: it reduces the space in Mespotamia when you need it the most (if you really want to represent a Sumerian city), and I am hesitant to dynamically change coastlines because there are graphical artifacts until you force the map to rerender by reloading etc.
 
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