[Development] Map Suggestions

[merijn_v1]

Ok, combining the two recent topics here, should Amsterdam (and maybe Rotterdam) be a lagoon tile? I’m not sure, and I assume we don’t want all cities with canals to be lagoons, but Amsterdam is definitely a strong candidate with the Zuiderzee/IJsselmeer next to it. And then the criterion for the delta works could be that the city is on a lagoon. Then it could be built in e.g. Venice, where it would appropriately represent the MOSE project, as well as New Orleans and other cities that are vulnerable to flooding.

I don't think that Amsterdam should be a lagoon tile. I think that this case is comparable to the New York bay. It can be justified to represent the Zuiderzee, but I don't think it fits. The area of Amsterdam is much better represented by a marsh on land than a lagoon tile IMO.

Another thing why I don't like it is that the coastline will look weird. The texture of the lagoon tiles make them look like they belong to the sea. (Only a bit elevated) This often leads to weird graphical coastlines. Making Amsterdam a lagoon tile will create a strange cut in the coastline. Venice, New Orleans (with the river fix) and Tenochtitlan do not have this problem, because they are surrounded by land tiles. But all other locations have strange coastlines because of this.

Yeah, I have a bit of trouble getting a coherent picture of what the lagoon tile should be used for. Outside of obvious situations like Venice, should the tile represent lagoons as geographical features, or cities built on water? My personal feeling is that there should be at least something resembling a geographical lagoon to justify the tile.

On the other hand, I'd like to suggest removing the lagoons in New York, Hong Kong, Porto Alegre, and Maracaibo (if that last one was placed), where we're using the terrain to better mimic the shape of the coastlines, but where I don't think the city's actual geography justifies a lagoon tile. Tenochtitlan, Amsterdam, Venice, New Orleans (perhaps Hamburg and St Petersburg are other good candidates) where all built over water (or at least swamps). I think the bonus (and the graphical use) of lagoons should be restricted to these cities.

I agree. I'm getting the feeling that every coastal city with some kind of waterbody will be turned into a lagoon tile.

 

[Tab911]

NYC should be a lagoon because it actually sits lower on a map. Without the lagoon the placement choice is akin to New Haven or Newburgh. A full land tile would make the coast look wrong and the lagoon is ideal given that other than BX, NYC is built on a collection of islands. Further, lagoon NYC allows for an accurate Boston.

Spoiler East Coast :

The shortlist of the world’s greatest cities is NYC, London, Paris and Tokyo (don’t @ me). I’m open to changes with other lagoon tiles but for my money NYC and Venice are here to stay.

I considered Amsterdam but I think it should be left marsh as it better fits the coastline. It’s a bigger map but we have to remember space is at a premium. I’d worry less about what cities are physically built on water and more about how to get the best mix of important cities and accurate landmass shapes.

 

[Leoreth]

Actual money?

Spoiler :

j/k

 

[TJDowling]

NYC should be a lagoon because it actually sits lower on a map. Without the lagoon the placement choice is akin to New Haven or Newburgh. A full land tile would make the coast look wrong and the lagoon is ideal given that other than BX, NYC is built on a collection of islands. Further, lagoon NYC allows for an accurate Boston.

Spoiler East Coast :

View attachment 532505

The shortlist of the world’s greatest cities is NYC, London, Paris and Tokyo (don’t @ me). I’m open to changes with other lagoon tiles but for my money NYC and Venice are here to stay.

I considered Amsterdam but I think it should be left marsh as it better fits the coastline. It’s a bigger map but we have to remember space is at a premium. I’d worry less about what cities are physically built on water and more about how to get the best mix of important cities and accurate landmass shapes.

I still wish we could lagoon Hong Kong but I can't figure out a way to make it decent.

EDIT: Honestly, that part of China/Southeast Asia really bothers me, the Pearl River comes out right above Hainan on the map, which is incredibly inaccurate.

 

[1SDANi]

Also, isn't a good portion of New York City built on manmade plots of land?

 

[trevor]

Also, isn't a good portion of New York City built on manmade plots of land?

Spoiler Yes-ish :

 

[1SDANi]

Spoiler Yes-ish :

I said a "good portion", not a "substantial portion"

Through 5 minutes of googling, using the sea as a landfill to build more land seems to be a long standing New York tradition.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

I said a "good portion", not a "substantial portion"

Also, Manhattan isn't the only island in New York that's man made in whole or in part.

Even so, using that criteria to determine where lagoons should go could include quite a few cities. For example, a lot of the land in the Vancouver area is reclaimed from the sea or marches. The airport is on a completely man-made island. But I don't think it would be appropriate to make the Vancouver tile a lagoon. There are a lot of cities that have reclaimed land, especially in the past century. Check this out: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...-of-reclaimed-land-asia-malaysia-penang-dubai

So I think there would need to be more to the criteria than just having a good part of the land man-made.

 

[trevor]

I said a "good portion", not a "substantial portion"

Through 5 minutes of googling, using the sea as a landfill to build more land seems to be a long standing New York tradition.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm fully on-board with an extra tile for NY: a lagoon works as the Hudson estuary is very much a place where land & water meet with relatively light tides. I'd also be fine with, as I already do on my local version, a grassland tile with a 1 tile Hudson River extension & another 1 tile river to represent the Long Island Sound.

 

[soul-breathing]

Likewise, New Orleans can currently build the Delta Works on the current map, just like Amsterdam. Just like Steb I feel that it's appropriate for that to remain possible in the new map (also so that the wonder isn't restricted to one city).

Ok, my fault. Just now I've taken a closer look at the map, find there're plenty of cities can build Delta Works, such as Buenos Aires, Perth, Dhaka, Alexanderia, Copenhagen and some other cities in East Europe and Arabia.

 

[Crimean Lord]

SOUTH PART of SIBERIA

ECONOMIC and HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

Until beginning of XX century it was unsettled area, the biggest city of Siberia NOVOSIBIRSK (1 500 000) founded only in 1890-s and it convert into really important city in the second part of XX century;
(except one important case - Mountain province of TUVA was part of Emperor's CHINA and conqured by USSR in WW II;
In Soviet Times and also nowadays two factors assosiated with South Siberia:
1) Aluminium's Mines of Hakasia (plains and semi-desert area)
2) Powerfull Coal Deposites in Kuzbass (main local city is Kemerovo)

SOME SUGGESTIONS (Resources + Terrains)

* One ALUMINIUM near Novosibirsk (two tiles SW Novosibirsk) - it represents famous symbol of aluminium industry of Siberia - city ABAKAN;
* A least one (or even two) COAL (two tiles NE Novosibirsk) - it represents MAIN source of Coal in USSR and also modern Russia - area of KUZBASS and its center - city KEMEROVO;
* Two new marhes near Kemerovo's COAL - perhaps it's not geograficaly accurate but it could nerf mega city in this part of the World*
* Siberian Sheeps removed from River to Western Sajan's Mountains (which illustrated as semi-desert Hills and Rock) - I think it's not very important;
* One INCENCE and one CAMEl in TUVA (unpopuleted mountain land between South Siberia and Mongolia, de-facto key-area of the Russian Buddism) - not so important for huge Russia but perhaps it will be usefull for Mongolia;

P.S. I don's know any reasons why there was one Сoal near Irkutsk - so I propose delete this Coal (at least area of KUZBASS more important);

SOUTH/CENTRAL PART of SIBERIA (part II): area of Krasnoyarsk

ECONOMIC and HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

The same as city Novosibirsk - Krasnoyarsk is famous industrial zone in Siberia;
Krasnoyarsk built as cossaks's fortress in the mid of XVII century BUT only in the second part of XX century Krasnoyarsk transformed into developed city;
In the South part of Krasnoyarsk's area there are a lot of deposites of copper and gems // North part of this area have powerful deposite of rare earths;
Eniseysk - is also famous sity in Siberia but not so much important as for example Krasnoyarsk - in USSR and modern Russia its city have strong reputation as center of Uranium's industy;

SOME SUGGESTIONS (Resources + Terrains)

* A lot of small changes of terrains: more forests/hills and marhrs in 2/3 circles of city and more good/productive tiles near the main local city;
* Shushen's Gems (2S than Krasnoyarsk) - techniccaly it's not so big as Yakutia' ones but this deposite of gems- one of the biggest in Siberia;
* Caratuzz's Copper Mines - (2E or 1E than Krasnoyarsk) - there are a lot of Copper in this area, as I read about it - Krasnoyarsk's area have more Copper than other lands of Siberia;
* Uranium removed one tiles - not so important suggestion BUT - it's give opportunity use this tile by Krasnoyarsk;
* In XX century Krasnoyarsk converted into huge industral city (1 100 000) - so I think it's be correct to give POTATO or/and DEERS - which stimulate growth of city in difficult area;

P.S. (about previus post' ideas)
1) Coal of Kuzbass/Kemerovo removed one tile east - it's more geograficcally correct + it's simple way how to decrease production potential of Krasnoyarsk;
2) Abakan's Aluminium removed one tile west - it's aslo a little bit accurate;

 

[merijn_v1]

2 ideas for bonus variants that could possibly belong to the dumb ideas thread.

1. White whale (Moby Dick). This could be connected to a new random event. There are 2 possible events that I think are suitable
- One of your whale resources is changed to the white whale variant and the yield increases a little.
OR
- A random whale on the map changes color and you have to find it. (Similar to the holy mountain event)

2. Black sheep. One random (non llama) sheep resource changes sheep in the flock black. This only serves as a "Where's Wally" easter egg game. (and link it to the exploring mechanic )

 

[ozqar]

I mean... what about adding the ruins of El Dorado somewhere random in Latin America? Could be treated in the same category as Stonehenge and the Nazca Lines, and serve as a holy quest as well.

 

[Orbii]

I think this alludes to expanding on events, which has been something long needed and which probably deserves its own discussion. Don't know where it falls in the priority list though.

As is always said about this, SoI has amazing events.

 

[stormogulen]

Now, a few ideas about Anatolia. Ankara spawns 1E of the marked location IIRC, so maybe that is its intended location.

Spoiler Anatolia :

Terrain changes:

More grasslands along the humid black sea coast. Ankara and 2 tiles south of it changed to flat semidesert tiles. Also heavy changes regarding forests. In reality the black sea coast is the most heavily forested area, while the dry interior is more barren. I went with broadleaf forests on the grassland tiles and generally brodleaf/conifer hybrid forests otherwise, which should be fairly accurate.

Resources (maybe too many and a bit too dense in some areas):

Silk (1W of Istanbul): Would spawn in about 550 AD, representing the smuggling of silkworm eggs from China into the Byzantine empire, giving it an economically very important monopoly on silk production in Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_into_the_Byzantine_Empire). Thrace was an important silk production center into modern times.

Wheat (1NW of Istanbul): Could spawn along with the Byzantine civ in 330 AD and represent local farming as well as grain imports from primarily Egypt (which stopped with the Sasanid and then Arab conquests of it around 620 AD, but after that farming increased in Thrace).

Stone (1SE of Istanbul): The idea is to give at least a little Production to Constantinople. The Romans quarried granite from Kozak, which is fairly close by. A reasonable alternative is marble, representing white marble from Marmara Island (heavily used in Hagia Sophia and the city itself).

Coal (1NW of Ankara): Moved closer to Zonguldak/Eregli area, Turkey's major coal mining area and a center of its heavy industry.

Opium (1SW of Ankara): Moved towards Afyonkarahisar, traditional center for opium cultivation and current supplier of a large portion of the world's morphine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afyonkarahisar).

Cotton (1NW of Antakya): Turkey is a major producer of cotton, and it has been historically important both as an export product and a basis for its textile industry. I don't know much about its history in Turkey, but have read that it has been present since at least 400 AD. Adana is a major cultivation center since the 19th century; it is also grown around Izmir and Antalya.

Tobacco (1S of Samsun): Tobacco was introduced to the Ottomans by the Spanish around 1600 AD. In the beginning it was mostly grown in Thrace and Macedonia. Today, coastal areas around Samsun, Trabzon and Izmir are major areas of cultivation.

Tea (1E of Trabzon): Represents tea plantations in Rize and also in western Georgia. Georgia started serious tea cultivation around 1890, which might be a good spawn date (the first tea plantations in Rize seem to have been set up in 1924).

Obsidian (1W of Yerevan): The areas around Lake Van and Sevan have been major sources of Obsidian. Would probably have been an obligatory inclusion if the mod started a few thousand years earlier, but maybe not so important now.

Citrus (1N of Antakya): Turkey is a major producer of both lemons and oranges, and Cilicia is the area where most are grown. According to some sources citrus fruits were introduced to Anatolia by Alexander the Great, so I'm not sure whether should be present from the start if included.

Gold (1NE of Thessaloniki): The gold mines at Mount Pangeo were very important for financing the exploits of Philip II and Alexander the Great (https://www.miningreece.com/mining-greece/mining-history/the-goldmines-of-alexander-the-great). Gold mining in the Chalkidiki peninsula close by was important during Byzantine and Ottoman periods (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siderokausia), and there has recently been a revival of gold mining there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias_mine and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skouries_mine).

The wine in the southeast got lost, but maybe with the Levantine dye moved into the water, there is now space for wine in Lebanon? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_wine

 

[Leoreth]

Thank you for this, I didn't realise that nobody had revised Anatolia yet. The current distribution of forests always felt wrong to me. A couple of points:
- where do you think Konya is then, 1S of your Ankara? I guess both cities are mutually exclusive.
- do you think we could represent Lake Tuz as a salt lake or salt flat?
- I would kind of like to keep the Tarsus spot open because it was an important city in antiquity and the middle ages

 

[stormogulen]

Yeah, I would put Konya 1S of the marked Ankara. BTW, I've seen a proposal in the "canonical cities" thread putting Ankara 1N of mine and initially had it there myself. But giving it coastal access just didn't seem quite right.

I thought about including Lake Tuz but didn't feel really sure where to put it. Probably 1SE of the marked Ankara? In that case I guess a salt flat is the only alternative due to mobility reasons.

I would actually also prefer to have Tarsus open (since additionally Adana is quite large today); this was actually part of my proposal at one point.

 

[Steb]

What do the spices in northern Anatolia represent? It sounds like they could be removed to reduce the resource density a bit.

 

[SBlack]

Im against wheat in Thrace, it was battleground devastated by Goths, Slavs and Bulgars by the times Constantinople became city comparable with Antioch and Alexandria.
Stone is placed on the spot where both Nicea and Nicomedia (for a short time Roman capital) could be settled so it could be moved somewhere else (maybe instead of coal, to force Ottoman late industrial cooperation with Europe),
Same point with olives and Halicarnassus (edit: it was Miletus) which was the largest greek city before Persian conquest, horses could be moved somewhere to Cappadocia ("The main imperial horse breeding ranches in the Middle Byzantine period were located in Malagina, Thessaly and Cappadocia." quote from "Tracing the Hoof-Prints of Byzantine History: Horses and Horse Breeding in the Middle Byzantine Period") which would improve production of Iconium or Angora (from what I remember most of greek element of Byzantine army was usually recruited from Anatolia, where most powerful military nobility resided and Armenians living in eastern reaches of Asia minor were also over represented in millitary) and make coastal Asia Minor more focused on culture and economy.
I hope Attalia doesnt become supercity with these resource placement and in mine opinion while Tarsos was very important city, it fades compared to Antioch (3rd largest and wealthiest both Roman and Byzantine city) which should be better (and more risky I guess) city for player and AI to settle.
Dont know enough about Turkish history of Asia minor so I might be wrong about some of these

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I would put Konya 1S of the marked Ankara. BTW, I've seen a proposal in the "canonical cities" thread putting Ankara 1N of mine and initially had it there myself. But giving it coastal access just didn't seem quite right.

Yeah, don't feel constrained by existing proposals and especially not city spawns, which are mostly ad hoc to satisfy code compatibility with the new map. I agree that the map is large enough to make it accurately landlocked.

I thought about including Lake Tuz but didn't feel really sure where to put it. Probably 1SE of the marked Ankara? In that case I guess a salt flat is the only alternative due to mobility reasons.

Makes sense.

I would actually also prefer to have Tarsus open (since additionally Adana is quite large today); this was actually part of my proposal at one point.

I agree, let's see what is possible.

What do the spices in northern Anatolia represent? It sounds like they could be removed to reduce the resource density a bit.

That's Safranbolu, an important historical saffron producing site. Its importance declined over time so we could remove it simultaneously with some of the later resource spawns (tea, tobacco) to keep the resource density reasonable.

Im against wheat in Thrace, it was battleground devastated by Goths, Slavs and Bulgars by the times Constantinople became city comparable with Antioch and Alexandria.

Okay, but Constantinople is definitely a 4x food city.

I hope Attalia doesnt become supercity with these resource placement and in mine opinion while Tarsos was very important city, it fades compared to Antioch (3rd largest and wealthiest both Roman and Byzantine city) which should be better (and more risky I guess) city for player and AI to settle.

I agree but the option to do so should exist.