[development thread] Dune: The Spice Must Flow
- Thread starter dtumacder
- Start date
Another Idea:
I have been thinking of how to make the spy system a bit more robust and get the feel of the "war of assassins" concept in the Dune universe. As all us Dune lovers know, there isn't really open warfare in the conventional sense. It is more plots, poisons, assassinations, and the climax usually ends in a battle that half the time has plots all its own. Houses have risen and fallen due to these War of Assassins.
Well to get this feel, I want to take the recon units line from FFH, give them new names, spy capablilities and incorporate this great mod Component:
Super Spies
I have been thinking of how to make the spy system a bit more robust and get the feel of the "war of assassins" concept in the Dune universe. As all us Dune lovers know, there isn't really open warfare in the conventional sense. It is more plots, poisons, assassinations, and the climax usually ends in a battle that half the time has plots all its own. Houses have risen and fallen due to these War of Assassins.
Well to get this feel, I want to take the recon units line from FFH, give them new names, spy capablilities and incorporate this great mod Component:
Super Spies
GarretSidzaka
Modder
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2002
- Messages
- 4,700
cool 
ok I did a little messing around and after an hour I came up with a visual look at the Dune tech tree. If you go to the 2nd post of this thread, under the original post, you will see the technology stuff. At the bottom of the list/post there is a spoiler box that has the tech tree drawn out.
Keep in mind there is a few things I may need to add, it is not the finalized design. Also make note that there is a Tier 9 tech, Future Technology, prereq is No-Technology and Synthesis.
Keep in mind there is a few things I may need to add, it is not the finalized design. Also make note that there is a Tier 9 tech, Future Technology, prereq is No-Technology and Synthesis.
Just an update:
I am now working on conceptual Civics, if you notice there are a few already in place in the tech tree, like slavery, and Water Conservation. I am going to look at vanilla civ, and look at FFH to get a feel for balance.
Just a side note, if anyone knows of any other mods out there that are as well developed and balanced as FFH2, let me know. I am using that and the vanilla civ4 BTS package to base most of my designs, I figure the FFH2 team and Firaxis have been doing it long enough that they know what their doing, this is my first big project and I'm not familiar with alot of the mods out there.
I am now working on conceptual Civics, if you notice there are a few already in place in the tech tree, like slavery, and Water Conservation. I am going to look at vanilla civ, and look at FFH to get a feel for balance.
Just a side note, if anyone knows of any other mods out there that are as well developed and balanced as FFH2, let me know. I am using that and the vanilla civ4 BTS package to base most of my designs, I figure the FFH2 team and Firaxis have been doing it long enough that they know what their doing, this is my first big project and I'm not familiar with alot of the mods out there.
maybe check "Rhyes and Fall", also.
Update:
Civics are inputted into the original post. Took from BTS civ4 and FFH2 civics and created a few. I kept only the civics that made sense in the Dune Universe.
I also put alot of the info in spoiler boxes to cut down on the post length and to make things look cleaner. That and those that want to keep a few surprises for when they play it, it allows them to do so
.
Next, I'm going to input the rest of the civics in their places in the tech tree outline and I'm going to start on a civ by civ unit outline. Once that is done and thus finish up the civs section I'll start XMLing.
Once again just a shout out for any volunteers that wnat to help.
Here is what is tentatively needed to make this the mod it can be.
Python coder - for map script, added features/functionality, or xml tweaks (I know nothing about python or c++ but I do know how to script and programing in general. So if it coes down to it I can self teach as I go and keep out things that require python coding until later installments or updates.)
XMLer - To help out with the xml modding.
Writers - When I wish to put forth the effort I am ok at writing but there will be alot of civilopedia content to be written.
Artists - seZereth and GarretSidzaka have volunteered a few things but I know both are busy with other projects and there is a bit a ways till their skills will be needed. So any artists that know how to make buttons, terrain, resources etc are welcome.
Designers - For balancing issues and ideas.
Playtesters - well cause we need a base of players that will report bugs or balance issues
Continueing on, just wanted to do my recruiting spiel again.
Civics are inputted into the original post. Took from BTS civ4 and FFH2 civics and created a few. I kept only the civics that made sense in the Dune Universe.
I also put alot of the info in spoiler boxes to cut down on the post length and to make things look cleaner. That and those that want to keep a few surprises for when they play it, it allows them to do so
.Next, I'm going to input the rest of the civics in their places in the tech tree outline and I'm going to start on a civ by civ unit outline. Once that is done and thus finish up the civs section I'll start XMLing.
Once again just a shout out for any volunteers that wnat to help.
Here is what is tentatively needed to make this the mod it can be.
Python coder - for map script, added features/functionality, or xml tweaks (I know nothing about python or c++ but I do know how to script and programing in general. So if it coes down to it I can self teach as I go and keep out things that require python coding until later installments or updates.)
XMLer - To help out with the xml modding.
Writers - When I wish to put forth the effort I am ok at writing but there will be alot of civilopedia content to be written.
Artists - seZereth and GarretSidzaka have volunteered a few things but I know both are busy with other projects and there is a bit a ways till their skills will be needed. So any artists that know how to make buttons, terrain, resources etc are welcome.
Designers - For balancing issues and ideas.
Playtesters - well cause we need a base of players that will report bugs or balance issues
Continueing on, just wanted to do my recruiting spiel again
.
Jeckel
Great Reverend
You might be able to move some of the writing load off the writers. There is the Dune Encyclopedia that has TONS of background stuff on the Dune universe. I think it is linked in the old Dune thread, but if you google it should be easy to find the pdf. With that it would be more data entry then writing lots of new stuff.
oh very sweet, I actually use the wiki as a kinda of a check list and to fill out alot of the small things in the tech list, civics and civilizatoin themes. Very good page on bene gesserit there and they have pretty much all aspects of the dune universe on there. One thing I don't like is their Arrakis page. Most of it is describing Arrakeen in its many forms and notable buildings. They don't mention much of the deep desert, survival traits used by the enhabitants the water sellers, the botanical testing stations, views on shield use and consequences, all very detailed and several examples throughout the books.
I wasn't thinking extra added content as you said, though there will be some of this for the writers. it will be more a process of determining the best quote for....say ...the Bene Gesserit as an example, filling in all the civilopedia entries...if multilingual fill in other languages, coming up with material for DSMF (Dune: the Spice Must Flow) specific events etc etc. So it will be alot of data entry but I give over the process of determining what to enter to them, of course reserving final approval, and there will be some excercise in creative writing with stuff like civic descriptions in relatin to Dune and arrakis, events, and descriptions of stuff lke promotions and the like.
A note on the Dune Encyclopedia, that the wiki does point out and I've compared.....it is not concidered cannon. There are several inconsistancies in the Encyclopedia that are contridicted in the actual novels. Just as one example the encyclopedia attributes the drastic change from a wet environment to a dry desert planet to the impact or near miss of a large comet or other large quasi-stellar object. When in fact in Children of dune Leto II clearly outlines the process and reasoning that it was the sand trout that encapsulated alot of the planet's moisture on a vast scale, and they were introduced to the planet's eco system, they were not a natural species of the planet.
Alot of little mis information as this makes the encyclopedia non cannon. True there are alot of good true facts one can use. The best source are the books or quotes directly out of the books in the wiki.
I wasn't thinking extra added content as you said, though there will be some of this for the writers. it will be more a process of determining the best quote for....say ...the Bene Gesserit as an example, filling in all the civilopedia entries...if multilingual fill in other languages, coming up with material for DSMF (Dune: the Spice Must Flow) specific events etc etc. So it will be alot of data entry but I give over the process of determining what to enter to them, of course reserving final approval, and there will be some excercise in creative writing with stuff like civic descriptions in relatin to Dune and arrakis, events, and descriptions of stuff lke promotions and the like.
A note on the Dune Encyclopedia, that the wiki does point out and I've compared.....it is not concidered cannon. There are several inconsistancies in the Encyclopedia that are contridicted in the actual novels. Just as one example the encyclopedia attributes the drastic change from a wet environment to a dry desert planet to the impact or near miss of a large comet or other large quasi-stellar object. When in fact in Children of dune Leto II clearly outlines the process and reasoning that it was the sand trout that encapsulated alot of the planet's moisture on a vast scale, and they were introduced to the planet's eco system, they were not a natural species of the planet.
Alot of little mis information as this makes the encyclopedia non cannon. True there are alot of good true facts one can use. The best source are the books or quotes directly out of the books in the wiki.
most excellent Ajidica, I have the feeling I will need the help with the xml and writing. There will be alot of data entry and testing, data entry and testing data entry and testing, and gettitng the civilopedia fully completed will be a task of multiple people.
I will, once the actual developement stage hits which will probably be next week, I will have a repository type thing set up somewhere for those taht want to help.
As far as python, I've never programmed it before. But I have programming experience, mostly with scripting languages. i've been examining the python and SDK forums and I can follow the logic and the language well enough. Will be slow for me at first but I don't see an issue in that regards. I would love to get someone that is familiar with python and scripting for BTS, but we'll manage through it
.
Only thing I have left is Unit structure, completion of civs once that is done and filling out the tech tree outline once those components are done.
I do ask those that read this thread..please PLEASE, even though I am tackling the concept and design of all this solo like, I need input on what I've put out. Good? Bad? specific improvements or cutting of unnecessary stuff. if you have an idea for the modpack...please feel free to share. I want to put as much flavor as we can into this as I can without taking away from functionality. If you have ideas for a new feature that would perfect for the setting please speak up.
I can't guarantee I'd use the ideas but it will help with my creative process and if it is an excellent idea, it will be used in one form or another. I'm basically asking you to help me keep my momentum going. I've modded stuff personally for myself in the past, xml tweak here, xml tweak there for BTS, but this is going to be a shared mod, that means I need feedback lol.
Thanks
I will, once the actual developement stage hits which will probably be next week, I will have a repository type thing set up somewhere for those taht want to help.
As far as python, I've never programmed it before. But I have programming experience, mostly with scripting languages. i've been examining the python and SDK forums and I can follow the logic and the language well enough. Will be slow for me at first but I don't see an issue in that regards. I would love to get someone that is familiar with python and scripting for BTS, but we'll manage through it
.Only thing I have left is Unit structure, completion of civs once that is done and filling out the tech tree outline once those components are done.
I do ask those that read this thread..please PLEASE, even though I am tackling the concept and design of all this solo like, I need input on what I've put out. Good? Bad? specific improvements or cutting of unnecessary stuff. if you have an idea for the modpack...please feel free to share. I want to put as much flavor as we can into this as I can without taking away from functionality. If you have ideas for a new feature that would perfect for the setting please speak up.
I can't guarantee I'd use the ideas but it will help with my creative process and if it is an excellent idea, it will be used in one form or another. I'm basically asking you to help me keep my momentum going. I've modded stuff personally for myself in the past, xml tweak here, xml tweak there for BTS, but this is going to be a shared mod, that means I need feedback lol.
Thanks
Update:
Uploaded a rough look of what the map will look like in the terrains section in the original post. It is a huge 90x56 map with 70% of the map is desert and I put 30% of the map is "basin" (I used the tundra terrain just as a visual reference). I outlined the top with a Shield wall mountain range.
Again this is a rough outline and if someone else does do the map this is simply a guideline.
Uploaded a rough look of what the map will look like in the terrains section in the original post. It is a huge 90x56 map with 70% of the map is desert and I put 30% of the map is "basin" (I used the tundra terrain just as a visual reference). I outlined the top with a Shield wall mountain range.
Again this is a rough outline and if someone else does do the map this is simply a guideline.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
- Messages
- 22,475
What you might want to do is have the desert good yeilds for the Fremen. This will encourage desert cities. Later on in the mod, when you are looking at desert cities, I would recomend looking at Gordon Farrells Ledgens of Ancient Arabia mod. It is really good.
Will look at that mod, if they have something excelent, why reinvent the wheel.
What I had planned on doing, concerning desert and desert cities, is Neither basin nor desert tiles wil produce water (replacement for food yeild) Windtraps built on any tile will give +1 water yield, water seal buildings will add +1 water to city tile and cistern buildings brings 20% of water over each growth. Growth would of course be limited, which is ok as this is not only a civ building mod but a desert survival mod of sorts.
The Fremen would get Deathstills and the Fremen Stillsuits as the their extra bonus to this survival aspect of the game. Basin tiles will produce 2 gold yield and 1 production, where hills wil produce 2 production. Desert yields nothing and acts as jungles with +1 sickness. Fremen are immune to the desert sickness, didn't think to add this till now based on your suggestion.
The incentive for the desert cities, as in the books, will be the spice. Though civs can stay in the basin and fly and get the spice, the distance, inferiior stillsuits, and maintenance for having to build Ornithopters to transport workers to spice locations is vast incentive to get the the spice resource that only grows in the desert. Thus encouraging expansion into the desert where the fremen get the natural advantage of location, being the only civ that starts in the desert.
Why would someone want spice? Well the spice acts like gold, that is accumilated. The more spice one hoards, the more gold one produces, the more production one produces, and the more water one produces (to a lesser extent than gold and production). Spice is life and one can trade it for gold and water and produce lots of stuff from it, to include clothing and liqour. There will also be events based on the amount of spice one gains. Once one gets a certain amount of spice, they get a CHOAM Directorship. More on that later, but to balance Fremen's natrual headstart and to keep with cannon, Fremen can not get this Driectorship.
Of course if this turns out to be overly complicated it will definetly need to be reworked. But I think alot of the complexity will be behind the scenes. And the Balanceing of it all will determine if all tis will be kept or some of it taken away.
So what do you think?
On Worms:
I mentioned worms as a mechanic in the beginning of the ths thread. What I intend to do is make them territorial. Divide the desert map areas into sections. Put perhaps 2-4 normal worms in each sectoin, 1-4 little makers in each section and 1 Old man of the Desert in each section. the desert area will be divided into 6 sectoins with 2-4 subsections each.
Worm Attraction:
there will be several ways to attract a worm. Thus making it dangerous to mine spice.
Mining spice - depending on wether it is a scarce, normal or rich patch determines the time frame a worm comes. Once it comes, if the player wishes to automate spice production it will "destroy the crawler" but the worker will reappear 2 tiles away from the worm. There will be a slight percent chance that it will be consumed by the worm and a percentage of the spice mined with it. If no Ornithopter is near to pick up the worker, then the worker must fend for itself normally on desert terrain with worm danger near.
Units on Desert - If a Unit does not have teh Unrhythemtic walking promotion then a worm will become attracted to the unit. Worm sign a turn before it attacks will reveal the worm. Worm attractoin can be deviated two ways without the walking promotion. Both are divertions so the unit stack can travel without attracting attention using Shielded units and units with thumper promotion (see below).
Thumber Promotion - Will enable a button on the unit, once pressed it will drop a "Thumper unit" this will bring a worm, it will ignore all other distractions beside crawlers and shields. And even then at least one worm will come. This can be used by fremen and atreides to call a worm for worm riding, or as a distraction for units to travel unpeded through the desert until the worm destroys the thumper unit.
Shield Promotion - Will instantly attrace a worm, calling all worms within that territory to the Shield.
Worm behavior
As mentioned before there are a few different ways of attracting worms. What worms won't do is attack ornithoptors (cause their flying), Seitches or cities on hill terrain, and Windtraps and various other improvements.
Worm strength
I am going to make Old Men of the Desert and Normal Worms extremely hard to kill. The only easily killed worm will be the Little Makers. As the game progresses you will be able to kill or "capture" worms. This will be required for the Off World Worm Cycle Victory.
That is it on worms for now.
I mentioned worms as a mechanic in the beginning of the ths thread. What I intend to do is make them territorial. Divide the desert map areas into sections. Put perhaps 2-4 normal worms in each sectoin, 1-4 little makers in each section and 1 Old man of the Desert in each section. the desert area will be divided into 6 sectoins with 2-4 subsections each.
Worm Attraction:
there will be several ways to attract a worm. Thus making it dangerous to mine spice.
Mining spice - depending on wether it is a scarce, normal or rich patch determines the time frame a worm comes. Once it comes, if the player wishes to automate spice production it will "destroy the crawler" but the worker will reappear 2 tiles away from the worm. There will be a slight percent chance that it will be consumed by the worm and a percentage of the spice mined with it. If no Ornithopter is near to pick up the worker, then the worker must fend for itself normally on desert terrain with worm danger near.
Units on Desert - If a Unit does not have teh Unrhythemtic walking promotion then a worm will become attracted to the unit. Worm sign a turn before it attacks will reveal the worm. Worm attractoin can be deviated two ways without the walking promotion. Both are divertions so the unit stack can travel without attracting attention using Shielded units and units with thumper promotion (see below).
Thumber Promotion - Will enable a button on the unit, once pressed it will drop a "Thumper unit" this will bring a worm, it will ignore all other distractions beside crawlers and shields. And even then at least one worm will come. This can be used by fremen and atreides to call a worm for worm riding, or as a distraction for units to travel unpeded through the desert until the worm destroys the thumper unit.
Shield Promotion - Will instantly attrace a worm, calling all worms within that territory to the Shield.
Worm behavior
As mentioned before there are a few different ways of attracting worms. What worms won't do is attack ornithoptors (cause their flying), Seitches or cities on hill terrain, and Windtraps and various other improvements.
Worm strength
I am going to make Old Men of the Desert and Normal Worms extremely hard to kill. The only easily killed worm will be the Little Makers. As the game progresses you will be able to kill or "capture" worms. This will be required for the Off World Worm Cycle Victory.
That is it on worms for now
.
