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Development thread for 1.5

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. jekke

    jekke Warlord

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    This sounds so awfully civ5-ish I don't even know what to say.
    Is there a way to break this scientifico-economical maelstrom, so that techs cost differently to different civs, but civs value those techs exactly the same?

    oh yeah, and for what it's worth, I'm all for tech diffusion.
     
  2. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    It could be done, sure.
    But if I decide to spend energy and time on revising (and rewriting parts of) the tech-trade system, I may as well spend those on changing the whole thing to some kind of tech diffusion system instead.

    EDIT:
    I disagree with the Civ V parallel though, even if the base mechanics are similar.
    The hastly introduced tech rules (much more beakers needed with more cities) ruined the gameplay there, and had totally unintentional consequences. All games ended up with 3-4 cities. Bleeh.
    It was a horrible decision, had no place together with the culture and national wonder system they had there. I still cannot beleive how little most of those devs know they own game...

    On the other hand, I would argue that the tech rule and the connected balance parameters in RFC-type mods are not only necesssary, but makes for a much more realistic gameplay here (with the more dynamic approach on civs and starts). These RFC games are balanced on a very different level, with very different balance "rules".
    Most importantly, these changes and all the most important consequences were absolutely intentional by Rhye and whoever else took part in it, tech progress works as designed.
    My only real issue with the system is the aformentioned tech trade. But actually that's only partly connected. It modifies overall tech progress, sure, but not connected to the actual research rules at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  3. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Two things:

    1, Not only tech trade have problems, but basically all other. ask another civ to: -dow on sby, - ask for a city, - cancel deals ....so all other option is only symbolic. you cant use them. options why it doesnt work is pointless. Fact is, ai does not have a "price" for them or simply dislike me.
    2, in the last few months i had some lategame. Its very annoying to see that certain civs just keep respawning. france, poland and scandinavia r the most common, but others can do that too. On the other hand some civs never collapse: typically russia ottomans or scottish. okey, its ok that they r stable but suspicious.
     
  4. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    1. I don't see any problems with those diplo options. All of them show up when they are supposed to, you can select them, trade for them, etc.
    They are definitely working, and you can use them without any issues as far as I can tell.
    Also I'm not even sure how this is tied to the design problems behind the tech trade mechanics.

    Maybe you are talking about AI behaviour for some of the diplo options?
    If yes, than that's an entirely different thing.
    Probably can be helped to some extent with tweaking some AI values, but don't expect it to behave perfectly rationally.

    2. Why would that be annoying? Some civs might have a high respawn rate, some civs might be harder to collapse.
    It makes for a better gameplay IMO.
    Actually what you wrote here all sounds wonderful. Most of those civs are intentionally set that way.

    Send me a PM if I misunderstood something about your post.
     
  5. El Bogus

    El Bogus Prince

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    I think, you can already be relatively indifferent about researching technologies because of the harsh penalty of research for anachronistic technologies. In the current state of the game, it's not easy to get a huge techological lead. Also, it's not advisable to research technologies that are anachrostic because they are so expensive. Typically, you want to do this to get an economical or a military advantage, or you want to trade the tech with other civs.
    So, without tech trading, research will be even less tactical.
    I'm also against disabling tech trading with the Pope. Firstly, the Vatican had at times pretty large dimensions. So, why don't treat it like any other civ? Secondly, Rome was a hoard of knowledge, so it isn't illogical for me, if I tech trade with the Pope.
     
  6. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Yeah, very valid points.
    But if we decide to switch to a no-trade system, the huge research penalty for anachronistic techs will be the very first thing to go along with tech trades.
    Actually I was in a disagreement in this with 3Miro from the first minute it came up, I was against it even in the current system. While makes tech balancing much easier, I felt that it's way too restrictive.

    On the Pope: the current solution is a quick fix.
    We either need the new trade system, or some special tech progression rules for the Pope if we decide to keep the current one.
     
  8. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Feedback:

    Finished a game with prussia. They are pretty solid option to pick now. But a few thing to mention. Dumping 15 GP in 1 citry still seems stupid. and kills a big part of fun. my advise is to exclude dreat generals and make the number 8 max 10. Also this uhv is the last to fulfill. Imo settle 2 merchant 2 engeneer and 2 artist and a general would be better, some diversity. also in this game it was like 5 engenner+2artist+1priest+5general+2scientist. so if you follow my idea, then you have to "work on it" not just settle any GP on sight!

    Other thing is happiness. Usually I never have problems with happiness ion my games, but Prussia is very war oriented, and that's doesn't help build solid relations. Besides Prussia is very hated by all neighbours by default. that could be improved a bit!?
     
  9. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Ohh, I forgot to switch back the plot coordinates and the city name tooltip in the GlobalDefines_Alt.xml.
    (these were added in the last commit (uploaded a couple minutes ago), both settable with simply putting a 0 or 1 value in the corresponding line)
    So they are both enabled now, while I planned to have them disabled by default.

    With my next commit I will set the plot coordinates to be off by default (they are primarily for modding purposes).
    City name popup should also be off by default, right?
     
  10. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    I'm not against improving the UHV.
    While I do like that it's focused on GP, you are right that it's kinda straightforward and easy (and boring after a while, when you are only waiting for the remaining GP).
    You will reach 15 GP no matter what you do, some time later if you don't switch to GP friendly civics.
    Not sure if mixing the types up is enough.

    Diplo relations should be hard for Prussia, it warred with all it's neighbours after all.
    It's historically fitting, and I don't think it's bad for gameplay either.
     
  11. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Diplo relation is 1 thing, happiness is an other. Sulphur is still very far. If prussia is AI and you agree the flip, then they spawn without any tech! its a long ago reported problem, didnt followed what happened with it.

    other things:
    -12 for close border pic.
    and
    I play this mod for years, but never ever seen this diplo-stuff:

    another screen, france is pleased, after war but wont trade...

    I got this message, before i klicked ok to start the game, how:

    next: it was a regular crusade, but my stack got the wrong taret :D (no save)

    strange bug, the cursor was on the stack over the water...(no save)

    some strange text, i just hope you know what is it


    ps: i hope you can match the pics weith the text
     

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  12. El Bogus

    El Bogus Prince

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    What about a mechanic that gifts available techs to pious civilizations? That would be awesome!
    I think so, too.
     
  13. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Im not that type, but i just rage-quited from my polish game. I allowed the 2. plague to come in (1470~), and still made the first UHV, so i was optimist about the rest. I needed to settle 2 cities + 1 conquer from hungary to be good for second uhv. Then they Dow on me and took 1 city, then i got 2 more dow and cities started to go indy. thats all only because i didn't had enough production to make an army. There was a discussion about the polish UP that how awesome it is. No its not. only theoretically. They cant build all that buildings, especial in all your cities.
     

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  14. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    I remember a report about no techs on flip, but didn't experience it myself.
    But you say it can be reproduced right on the Prussian spawn? If yes, that makes bughunting much easier.

    About the pics:
    - Diplo penalty from close borders is unintentionally high there, you are right.
    - The diplo penalty on the Venetian diplo screen is rare, but it's in the mod for at least a couple years.
    - The 3rd picture is the same as the 1st if I'm not mistaken
    - Somehow you managed to have pleased relations with France, while being it's worst enemy. Most AI leaders cannot trade techs if you are their worst enemy, no matter how good your relations otherwise. If I have to guess, in this game it was a rare case where France has only met with the Papal States and you, Byzantium (it's safe to assume they haven't met Arabia, and not that uncommon that they don't get a diplo contact with Venice either by that time). They were probably friendly with the Pope, that leaves Byzantium as their worst enemy until they meet another civ. A strange situation when they are pleased with them otherwise.
    - On the 5th pic, the attack is possible because Byzantium is earlier in the turn than Bulgaria. I do not consider that a bug. Also, this couldn't affect your spawn stack (units are moved from that area), but a flipped horse archer unit somewhere close to the Byz border. So I don't consider it bad for gameplay either. Just imagine that there was an initial clash between one of your scout units, and the Byzantine defences, foreseeing the long wars to come :)
    - The one with the units on the Sea is very strange. Especially since the stack has some Portuguese unique units, and a settler. Maybe there was an issue with the defensive crusades? Or a wrong flip... Was investigating the related codes for a while now, but so far do not have any ideas... How long were those units there? Were they be able to move?
    - The crusading stack in Anatolia wasn't targeted on that city. Probably the target was still Jerusalem, but it changed ownership right before your units supposed to arrive. So your units was placed to a close territory where you had access to, either by war or by open borders. I would need savegame to investigate it further, why were they put exactly there. Btw, what's those buildings on the right side of the picture?
    - The last one is a sound entry issue. Are you sure it's from the latest version? I remember fixing some of those a couple commits ago.


    EDIT: Oh come on. Just noticed that the bug with the units in the Ocean is from a modified game.
    Hanseatic League wouldn't be able to spread to Iberia normally.
    Please do not post "bugs" from saves where you manually modified stuff.
    In many cases I can't possibly tell if there is a real issue in the mod, or if it was only a strange consequence of some of your edits.
    In this case I'm pretty sure though, that something messed up some python processes in the background, that's why those units happened there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  15. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Well, no they could not move, half stack died when portugal was wiped, i killed the rest with WB after it. It wasnt a bugged game, didnt notices hanestic at all. It was before company system change.

    Misguided crusade, i dont remember what happened, but anyway crusade should land near jerusalem in all cases imo, not in anatolia or egypt.

    Ps: on all screenshots i emptied my ss folder, they were collected since you picked up the trail this year. And i posted them in reversed order.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  16. The Turk

    The Turk Deity

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    I haven't been following development, but is 1.5 released yet? Or is there an ETA on its release? Looks cool!
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Nice idea, would be great fit while we have the current system.
    Will look into it.
    Yeah, probably that's the more-RFC-way to have it.
    Don't worry, no harm done.
    Next time please try to document your screenshots better though.
    Even better if you report an issue right away. It's much harder to investigate stuff from 20 revisions ago, even if it wasn't directly changed in those updates.
    Not yet, but it's very close. Actually it's more or less complete feature-wise for a while now, in the sense that I don't plan any more major changes for 1.5.
    In the past 2 weeks I was mostly adding stuff for enhancing user experience (UI improvements, text and art updates), trying to tweak AI behaviour, adding minor fixes and balancing changes based on user feedback.
    I won't say an ETA for the release, but it's entirely possible that it will be released on the next weekend, maybe even on Friday. Depends on how much work I manage to do on the mod in the next few days.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  18. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Can you extend settlers toolpit, and add the next name, if there is no map-name. In my last game I settled a lot on foreign lands, where i did not had pre-set names. so instead of nothing it could show the next civ-default name.

    Another case: its annoying if you get different religion in 1 city, (usually catholicism) Then every civ with that religion is demanding that you switch. Then go angry if you dont :D So pls If player is above 80 faith point, then make it safe from these demands. If France take barcelona with orthodoxy I can not ask hit to convert. so why he can ask me to change?
     
  19. The Turk

    The Turk Deity

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    So I've been playing around as the Norwegians and French: How do you complete both of their UHV? Specifically the Norwegians it is very hard to keep together your entire Empire without it collapsing into Civil War. And recreating Charlesmagne's Empire in the given time is near impossible, just the vast stretches of territory you need to conquer/settle, means that transportation times take up most of your time.
     
  20. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Deity

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    Are you playing on 1.4? The French got a buff to their starting army on one of the recent revisions that makes the first French UHV much more feasible now.
     

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