Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by Crimso, Jan 17, 2005.
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Skipping the first page of discussion, count me in on helping the newbies.
I am curious if it is also possible for me to join in with helping out with the newbies, if so count me in.
I do would be better in the guide persion and someone to answer questions. Since College has gotten back, Ill post up a scedual so that any newbie that I am guiding can contact me via #civfanatics in the times that I am free (For PMs, its 24/7).
I have pictures in my sig. Well; links to pictures as the sig-code doesn't allow [img ] tags.
Hmm. So i guess the best we can do is have large flashy text advertisements in our sigs with links to the DG forum.
↓Take mine for example ↓
Ok! This has sort of lost some steam. I blame myself for being away. So, the current roster is:
I think we have enough guides already, so the I think three of ya who don't got no positions yet should join the lonely advertisers, but whatever you choose will be cool.
The reason I haven't been pushing this as hard as I was last week is that DGVI may be pretty far away. I wouldn't want to get people over here now because there isn't really a lot going on. Maybe after we decide our system of government, the 'ruleset' and all that, then we'll kick it into full gear.
Here is what I think we can do now, though:
1. Sig advertisement. Let's get every current citizen to reference DGVI in their sig. How? If you are reading this right now, change your sig so that it advertises the DG. You do want to attract more people, don't you? I think it would be cooler if we all had different ways of advertising DGVI, but for the basic idea, look at the post above mine.
2. Update/make new "Newbies Society" thread (I think we'll keep the name). Maybe tonight I'll post a new thread, but I don't know if I'll have time. I mean, I came to the library to study, but instead logged right on to the forum!
3. Start rounding up adopters. I will... go post a poll right after this!
Ok, so, for the nine of you who are 'in' or 'on board': what I need from you are suggestions and discussion, for the umpteenth time. C'mon! I know you got ideas! POST 'EM!
Get CT or another mod to advertise for us on the main pages, have someone pay to advertise in one of CFC's advertising slots, etc.
Umm, Crimso, you forgot about me . I would like to sign up as an advertiser.
I'm already advertising. Why don't we just start a newbie help center thread?
If you haven't noticed yet, I posted this thread in the main forum to created interest in the DG.
You might want to change DGIV to DGVI in the first post. Demogame IV is dead and gone...
Why has my leadership in this venture been so crappy since I posted the thread? The simple answer is real life. I don't have the time for this anymore. This has lead to a lack of discussion, planning, and organization, which has given birth to this. But I'm not so concerned with that right now as much as I am with the DG as a whole.
There are two serious problems with the DG that I think need to be fixed. First of all, the vibe has been oppresingly negative for a while now. People are tearing at each-other's throats constantly. Many are on edge, and not having fun. Second,
I really don't think I need to elaborate on this because (1) we all know about, and (2) every time I've brought it up people get very *hush hush*.
I saw these two problems, and the seemingly endless sub-problems that stemmed from them, and I tried to solve it. How? With this whole newbies thing. I thought that if I could bring a lot more people to the DG, I could alleviate the burdening tone. I also thought we could change this "aristocracy" aspect if we just had a lot more citizens. I couldn't follow up because RL kicked in real hard beginning in January, but even if I did, I don't think I could have changed things much.
I realize now that there is really very little hope in the DG if it continues in this way. The problems I mentioned before will not be solved by increasing the number of citizens, and I regret ever thinking so. There are discussions going around for what the government should be, what the map will be like, etc. while what we really should be discussing is how we can solve the real problems of the DG before VI starts.
First, we have to realize that these problems exist, but I have little faith that will happen. We plod on and on while personal grudges and general animosty between citizens plays out in our discussions. A ****ing CC was filed just because one player just wanted to drag another through the mud. That's pathetic. When some mention that certain people are controlling the game, they are ignored, insulted, and shut up. We are pinned "conspiracy theorists" and our threads are closed, our simple and obvious claims denied. "There's nothing going on! Everything that's about the DG is on the board or in the chat!" Then we turn and sign "seceret petitions" to have mods' powers revoked. That's pathetic.
Right now, DGVI is looking to be a nightmare. Our list of citizens will shrink and shrink as people leave from pressures of RL and/or the realization that the DG has basic problems which are being ignored. I wouldn't have written this much if I didn't think the DG was worth something, but I won't bother to mention this outside of this thread. I have a good feeling that this has been going on since the first DG, and instead of tossing this stone off their backs many of the citizens will let it continue to wear them down.
I don't have the interest, let alone the time, to participate in this. I'll be checking into the DG once a week or so, and I'd like to know if anyone would like to solve these problems. If you think that DGVI is looking to be a very hellish experience, and think drastic change is needed to salvage it, then drop me a line.
Snipelfritz, you run the Newbies Society now. I bestow it upon you, because I know you'll do a great jaaaaeeerrrb.
Sorry, Crimso. I don't have the time or patience to solve the problem in this game anymore, especially since I was stiff-armed by Thunderfall himself. So the CFC establishment does not want to admit there is a problem either, or hear the objective pleas from more "reasonable" citizens than myself.
Whaddaya gonna do? We just have to make the best of what we've got.
There was an attempt to help the problems of the game in DG2 when we structured the Constitution and supporting Laws to setup guidlines for gameplay. With those guidelines established and followed, figuring out how to alleviate the current social problems you speak of would be a lot easier. But we threw out those guidelines and decided to re-invent the wheel every game. This was an open invitation for more of the problems that you want us to cure. Because a certain crowd of veterans wanted to eliminate the rules for a much easier game, which actually translated to them not being held accountable for their actions, these social problems dominate the game. Its an endless cycle. People need these laws to have a friendly game, but people don't want these laws so they can do what they want, when they want. But that usually leads to the social problems you speak of. Go figure.
I don't know what to tell you, except you can't solved the screwed up social problems by getting rid of the rules. We have to quit starting over each game, but who knows, the Alternative Government idea may just be the new drug we all need. Maybe we just need a new drug to carry us over through the next game...maybe not.
Oh, and another thing. One major factor for having a supposed empty shell of a game is because there are people that earnestly come in and start projects like "I want to help the newbies", and then come back and say "Sorry, I don't have time for this", and split. It happens a lot. RL is a Demogame killer.
You hit the nail on its head Cyc, the game will see flagrant abuse of power, as a lack of rules and presence of laws reinforces the information gap, and players waste time on initiatives shot down by seasoned veterans. Personally, I played the game pretty nice out Term IV in DGV, then I turned nasty as I was put under siege and an avalanche of insults, with few players and no mods coming to the rescue. What could the perpetrators expect, that I would sit down and cry, simply leave the game, call for moderator support, call for other citizens intervention or to give them an easy fight for their entertainment? Well, the lack of pace with a marginal turn progression rate in a very slow term gave people energy to develop personal smear campaigns, on all sides.
There was no external opposition to unify us. In this environment conducive to high intensity conflict, I decided to direct the heat against these who did nothing but insult, insult and yet insult more, with me as a passive observer for a long while.
Yeah, I was bellicose on the strategy issues, jesting with terms as Embryon, China-friends and so on, but that was all game related, not person related. Anyways, most players had their rough statements either way.
But the darn rules and enforcement of these were not strong enough, so the laws and enforcement mechanisms, and in particular freedom of speech became instruments of destruction, and in this high octane arms race, you could decide to napalm or be napalmed. With a more stringent rule-set, and less Mickey Mouse Anarcho-syndicalism,
several of these conflicts could have been averted, since then the question of right and wrong was publicly defined, and everyone could refer to these.
But with no code in place to cover these eventualities, we got a situation of free for all, and do not tell me anyone was better than anyone else. Maybe some smears was done more effectively at stages, but cruel intent is cruel intent, regardless of capacity for destruction. Well, the result was utter depopulation and bitterness in the endgame.
Several of us are to blame, me included, but also those who failed to intervene when they saw a mounting conflict, or failed to reapproach when the dust settled.
Yet, we need to put this behind, and focus on stricter, yes easily understood rules, and no last minute surprise rules kept away from the laws.
I know some people see the rules as a problem, but the alternative, no rules and pure anarchy, has proven again, again and again to cause serious conflicts.
We see some want no rules, no quotas, hardly any government, no structure, minimum of laws, absolute minimum of standards and so on. What is left, yes, a flame-feast, and we all know that is the alternative if do not manage to build a solid structure, a structure that includes new players to the maximum.
Provo, look at me.
Except for the part about quotas, you're right. Now let it go. I don't want to hear about the personal crap that went down in DG5. I've heard your personal quips over and over. I know them by heart. Just stop. You are a grown man who created your own life before you came to these Forums. You don't need to base your happiness on these things you are taking so seriously. It's done. Let It Go!
Thank you for agreeing with me on this issue,but I don't want to read about how you were wronged anymore. You can not base any of this crap on legal issues. It's all personal. Keep it personal. What you fail to understand is that by putting this stuff in every post you make, you are just throwing gasoline (petrol) on the fire. Just stop and walk away from it. Don't let it influence what you do in DG6. Let It Go.
Ok, from now I will not make any reference to this, so please now let us work on the rules. I will let it go.
That's great news, Provolution. Thank you. It will certainly make my game more enjoyable to see you back to your old self.
Even though snipelfritz was put in charge of this project by Crimso I believe I will start a new thread called "Introduction to the Demogame". I will use the Lowdown Introduction in the first post, but will modify it to include links to appropriate threads. Then we can build on that until it is ready to be move to the new forums. Discussion should take place here, in this thread, for any items or posts that will follow the "Lowdown". If an item gets general approval, it can be copied to the Intro thread. This way we'll have a better idea of how we want to structure the Intro thread and better control over what goes into it.
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