Diplo for MIA

[Sir Bugsy]

We need to get some workers hacking out jungle and marsh. I think 1000 or so may get that cleared by the time 2050 AD rolls around.

 

[grahamiam]

I don't get why spot 4 is given priority over #5. #5 can have decent corruption due to the FP nearby (once it has a court), is on a river, is in range of a whale, and should be settled 1st as it will be more productive than the jungle-locked #4 location will be for a long freakin' time. #4 is just a land grab for sh!tty land, imho

 

[scoutsout]

I don't get why spot 4 is given priority over #5. #5 can have decent corruption due to the FP nearby (once it has a court), is on a river, is in range of a whale, and should be settled 1st as it will be more productive than the jungle-locked #4 location will be for a long freakin' time. #4 is just a land grab for sh!tty land, imho

grahamiam: I do not disagree with anything you say. I put #4 in there as a "fait accompli" in the land grab scheme... beating MIA to the punch and negating the "negotiations".

We're about to punch another settler out of our capitol... and we could settle #5 shortly afterwards in "land grab" mode.

OTOH, if we agree to this little "50/50 line"... we can settle #4 at our leisure, and settle #5 first.

Or we could just cede #4 to MIA...

Anyway... my thought was to grab some land south of the marsh...which we can later clear and develop.

These are my thoughts... I'd appreciate more of yours.

 

[Daghdha]

My thought is the game will not go on long enough to ever make use of that cleared jungle. As soon as cavs are up we will hit MIA and clear the continent and I'm sure the battle islanders will not stand there, gazing over the ocean and say "cool, KISS has a continent for themselves". I'd say we focus on trimming the core real hard and work outside it only to raise pop/specialists.

 

[scoutsout]

Okay - here's another proposal for this silly 50/50 line:

----- Draft Cover Letter -----

Team MIA:

We reviewed the latest proposal for the "50/50 Line", and would like to submit the proposal below as an alternative for your consideration.

There are three things you should note about this proposal:

• The "Western Border" is exactly the one proposed by your team in an earlier communication.
• The "Eastern Border" makes minor modifications to the Eastern Border previously proposed by Team MIA, and gives MIA control of East Mountain.
• The treaty language is identical to your team's most recent proposal.

We are certain that you will find this proposal reasonable.

Spoiler :

The Green Split

A. The Border Line

I. Beginning Point of the Eastern Border
Start on East Mountain tile ... then tile jump to E, NE, which is designated the Eastern Tile.
Check that the Eastern Tile is a jungle on the coast ... NE x 1 is a Fish ... SE x 2 is a Whale.
The Northern tip of the Eastern Tile is where the border line begins.

II. The Eastern Border

1. From the Eastern Beginning Point draw a line SW x 2, the Northern tip of the East Mountain.
2. Then go NW x 3, ending at the Eastern tip of Senilityville.
3. Then go SW x 3, ending at the Eastern tip of the Unclaimed Spice tile.

III. Western Beginning Point of the 50/50 Border
Start on West Mountain, the peak closest to Cyprus Creek ... then tile jump to S, S, S, W which is the Western Tile.
The Western Tile is a jungle on the coast ... NW, NW is a Whale ... N is a fish.
Western Beginning Point is the N tip of the Western Tile.

IV. The Western Border

1. From Western Beginning Point go SE x 2.
2. Then go NE x 2, ending on Effing Whomping Rower city radius.
3. Then go SE x 2, along city radius to N tip of KISS' northern Dye.
4. Then go NE x 4, which is N tip of Chuck Norrisville city radius.
5. Then go SE x 1, along city radius.
6. Then go NE x 2, ending on the W tip of Unclaimed Spice.

V. The Forbidden Tile
The tile which contains the Unclaimed Spice will be labelled the Forbidden Tile.
This tile will remain forbidden to unit entry for the duration of the Peace. A colony may ONLY be built if both teams agree to terms of compensation negotiated in the future.

B. The Rules of the Split

The below conditions are to be honoured for 50 turns on the signing of the agreement.

I. Both MIA and KISS agree to recognise the Green Line which is defined as the meeting of the Western and Eastern Borders at the Forbidden Tile. KISS will control the territory north of the Green Line and MIA will control the south.

II. To ensure that there are no cultural encroachments into the other's territory, both teams agree that any new cities may not be founded any closer than 1 tile from the Green Line.

III. To ensure that cultural expansions do not violate the other's territory, both teams agree that every city that is less than or equal to 3 tiles away from the Green Line is forbidden to have completed any cultural buildings for the duration of the peace.

IV. During the peace any Land unit must be granted permission prior to entering any tile controlled by the other team.

V. Naval units must be granted permission prior to ending their turn if they are closer than one tile from the other teams cultural border.

VI. restrictions on Air units must be discussed when one team has discovered the technology required to build them.

 

[gmaharriet]

Is this a serious proposal or just a stalling tactic? Seems like I read in one of the threads recently that we didn't want to agree to any border restrictions, but maybe that's changed.

 

[scoutsout]

Is this a serious proposal or just a stalling tactic? Seems like I read in one of the threads recently that we didn't want to agree to any border restrictions, but maybe that's changed.

I don't object to signing a peace accord...and I don't really think we could claim much beyond these lines. Even if we could claim it, I don't think we could develop it. Though it may sound restrictive to agree to 50 turns of peace, we'll be able to do a lot in that time...

We'll be ready to fight them when the time comes. For the moment, I'm going to dispatch a couple of Gallic Swords to The Other Continent to investigate the cause of the Doughbolt Explosion. I suspect TNT sabotaged our Doughtbolt Bakery, and we must bring them to justice for this atrocity!

 

[Whomp]

Fe liked the idea of slave trading. I convinced him that unit support costs are a bear and all. Stay tuned.

 

[Daghdha]

Edit: Gone gone gone

 

[scoutsout]

This was in my PM box a moment ago. I'll just throw this out for the team's consideration. I won't do anything (respond, or play turns) until after 8pm EST tonight. In fact...I'm up in GMA1...so I'll probably do that first...I think AdmK left me a..."tactical situation" that has piqued my interest.

@Daghie: What Cavs? And another thing... I'm not seriously p!$$ed at fe. I just want 'em to think I am. My next planned piece for The Crazy Eye: How to build leaflet bombs when you have neither printing press nor airplanes.

...and I submit that my pace-of-play (and a little luck due to the geography between me and Kuningas) has had one desired effect: "Feet, meet fire".

Greeting Scoutsout and the KISS

I trust that Daghie posted a chat that him and I had earlier ...

I was concerned that the last pigeon post we received from Whomp was extremely reactive, and although I could have (and perhaps in hindsight, should have) reworded it to be more ... ummm ... diplomatic ... I do stand by what I was relaying.

I was expressing my frustration in the fact that lately the turns have been flying past and that although we are very close , we are still no nearer to finalizing the border. We sent a fair scenario and you responded with another that did not even address the one we sent and to make matters worse we could not even draw your proposed border due to errors in the instructions that you sent ... If the wording caused offence I humbly apologize, however we feel that both teams being able to fully access the eastern and western fisheries is important.

We are concerned at the rate of turn cycle and request that you take the full 24 hours to take yours, this will enable time to finalise the Peace agreement by turn 112.

We respectfully want you to address the issue as a matter of the highest priority ... the Gentleman's Non-aggression Agreement has run out this turn and we are uneasy floating in this limbo.

We require something more concrete than a nebulous peace ... please respond to this with a rejection or acceptance of our last border proposal ... OR submit one of your own that has been checked for errors.

Surely you can see the importance of finalising the border and sincerely wish you to address this important issue by your next turn. Peace is in our grasp, let us not throw it away!


Respectfully yours

Feaurius III of the MIA

 

[Tubby Rower]

They have asked for us to delay our turn before and we have complied. Their version of government requires time to propose debate and poll the 5 or so players that are active.

I say run as fast as you can with it scout and reply back to him that it's the only time you have to play

 

[Daghdha]

@Daghie: What Cavs?

The ones we will have when we have upped the horsemen we will build during our GA

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I just reread that last PM. They want a delay to discuss their moves? Let them ask for a delay. I see no reason to reduce our speed for them.

Draft Message for me to send to MIA:

Hi Fearius III

Whomper asked me to fill in a bit while he's off doing POTKISS type stuff.

Scout has forwarded the border PM to me and I looked at the pictures.

Seems a tad unfair to ask us to prolong our playing time to the full 24 hours. In fact, a paranoid idiot might get the idea that MIA is using all that time to relay our messages to the other teams to strategize.

We're not excessively concerned with having access to both fisheries.

Peace for thirty turns, no enroaching upon existing borders (the ones that show on the map) is pretty concrete in our my strange little world; would make things very simple to determine if there's been a violation of the treaty.

Since control has temporarily passed to an idiot, we're pretty comfortable watching this important issue float in nebulous limbo until whomper gets back.

Regards,
the eldest

comments, suggestions?

 

[Bede]

That's the ticket, Adm. Keep 'em guessing!

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

@scout - keep up the pace of turnplay until otherwise notified

 

[gmaharriet]

Since control has temporarily passed to an idiot, we're pretty comfortable watching this important issue float in nebulous limbo until whomper gets back.

That ought to drive them totally up the wall. I love it!

 

[Tubby Rower]

Good to have you back AK. Now press send on that PM. and I agree that speed of the game should not be slowed.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

scout came up with a better response. details to follow. something about "swish and spit"

 

[Whomp]

lurker's comment: hehe...snuck into the internet cafe´ for a moment before dinner. You guys are doing marvelous. As far as you know, you didn´t see me. Tell them to make a stupid border and end the dang thing or spit and shake or swish. If you need me I have 45 minutes over the next couple days so pm me.

 

[scoutsout]

Okay... This is bound to be the the biggest diplomatic nutroll I have ever messed with. I believe I posted a recent dispatch from fe to me in a PM. This is the response I crafted to that note:

Spoiler :

To Chamnix, Team MIA Turnplayer
From scoutsout, Team KISS Turnplayer
Copies to: fe3333au, Team MIA Diplomat, RegentMan and Ginger_Ale (Game Admins) and Admiral Kutzov, KISS Stand-in Diplomat

Chamnix,

Please accept my apologies in advance for the extensive "cc:" list. I hope as you read this you will understand why I have chosen to include the moderators as well as our stand-in diplomat.

I would much prefer it if this was a "Player to Player" note.

[speaking as a person]

I am writing to you in more than one capacity; as turnplayer for Team KISS and as a real person, with real committments in the real world. I am writing about my real world committments only because your team's diplomat has made a request that places an undue burden on me as a real person.

I have committments that make it difficult for me to schedule my play in such a way that I can "...take the full 24 hours" to play my team's turn. My home is 100 miles from my office. I took this job last year, and it took me away from Civ for nearly a full year. On Wednesdays I happen to attend church with a friend in "The Other City". Your 7pm post tonight happens to coincide nicely with tomorrow night's church service/potluck dinner. (A regular church...not some Celtic Temple in a Civ game.)

Though I have not read all of the details of the 24-hour rules and rulings...the intent seems quite clear: Keep the game moving. It is for this reason that I have involved a moderator and an admin.

If your team wishes to insist that we take the maximum time allowable to play a turn, I think it only fair as both a player and a person that others who might be affected are made aware of this discussion. Abiding by such a requirement might force us to request extensions beyond 24 hours.

[/speaking as a person]

[speaking as a player]

In reading the dispatches, I think there may have been a misunderstanding about our latest proposal to your team. Our latest proposal described an "east tile" that was different from the "east tile" described in your ealier proposal. Ah, the difficulties of dotmapping before Navigation..

As my team's (current) designated turnplayer, I offer the following:

1. Peace. I offer you the same "spit and shake" non-agression pact that Whomp offered Fe. I offer your team this peace for up to ten turns, that we might proceed in our current negotiations in good faith. I trust you have witnessed nothing dodgy in my play of late. Grinder went where you told him he could.
2. Another "50/50 proposal. This proposal will include no fewer than two options for your team's consideration.
3. Though I shall not delay turnplay, I will send you these proposals before forwarding the game to Team Doughnut.

For your reference, I have attached the "Urgency for Peace" dispatch I received from your diplomatic corps this morning.

[/speaking as a player]

Turnplayer to Turnplayer

Please understand that I intend to proceed with the game tonight; please do not mis-interpret this as a sign of outward agression. I hope you understand that I also intend to do my part to proceed with the present negotiations "in good faith" with you and your team. If you take the "spit and shake", I will honor it. And I know the "Grumpy's" well enough to know they will honor it as well, should we change turnplayers.

I hope that this is received in the spirit sent: Honest, straight diplomacy (albeit on in- and out- of-game levels).

Yours in Green (continent) peace,
-scoutsout

Here is fe's (uninvited) reply:

Spoiler :

Dear scoutsout

Thankyou for responding in a timely and constructive manner.

I again apologise for my over reaction, in hindsight it was more due to frustration of the recent acceleration in game speed.

I agree to the extension of the Gentleman's Non-Aggression Agreement on the proviso that you do take time with your turns and if possible take as much of the full 24 hours before sending off the save to the next team.

Now that we are both aware of the issues I would like to propose that MIA send you a number of options for you to consider, they will be fair in tiles and will divide and give full access to the eastern and western fisheries.

I have time to write up and check the instructions required to draw the dividing border and am prepared to do this. We will also indicate which is our preferred option. This will speed up the process and ensure that we are all looking at the same proposal.

Yours sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA's sometimes loose cannon Foreign Minister

My response to that response (I am starting to really prefer warmongering to diplomacy...)

Spoiler :

Fe,

I am encouraged that you appreciated my prompt reply. I wholeheartetdly accept your apolgogy. I "suspect" that you and I were speaking of different "east tiles" in our earlier correspondence.

Although I appreciate your willingness to accept my "gentleman's proviso" regarding the "non agression pact"....I regret to inform you that you are not in a position to accept the agreement as offered.

While I will accepted (and honored) our diplomat Whomp's "spit and shake" agreement with you.... that was not the offer I made to your team.

I offered that "turnplayer to turnplayer" to Chamnix. Although I consider you a friend "out of game", in this game, I will accept nothing less than the word of honor of your team's designated turnplayer with respect to the renewal of the non-agression pact on a "spit and shake" deal.

A simple PM from Chamnix with the words "spit and shake" is all it will take to seal the deal on a mutal non agression pact.

I shall make this very simple for team MIA: I welcome the handshake of the Team MIA turnplayer. As the turnplayer for Team KISS, I shall accept nothing less than the handshake of the Team MIA turnplayer. Let Diplomats deal with Diplomats. Turnplayers are entitled to more (or less bother).

And yes, my friend, the non-agression pact is just that simple. I want Chamnix's "spit and shake" handshake for the non-agression pact to continue this dialog. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now that we are both aware of the issues I would like to propose that MIA send you a number of options for you to consider.

fe, my friend.. I must bind you to your own words:

We require something more concrete than a nebulous peace ... please respond to this with a rejection or acceptance of our last border proposal ... OR submit one of your own that has been checked for errors.

In my last message to you and your team, I made certain commitments. Among those comittments, I promised I would not forward the game to Team Doughnut until I had proposed a map. (Hint: I have already played the turn...and Doughnuts are sleeping)

I also promised I would send your team a proposal before I forwarded the save.

In all fairness, you owe it us to hear our propoasls, and consider them FULLY, before making any new proposals of your own. Anything less would make you appear insincere in your earlier proposals.

In closing, I offer thie following:

• Peace. At the cost of a handshake from your turnplayer to ours. Chamnix must "spit and shake" with me.
• A forthcoming proposal for the "50/50 line".

isupsect that there will be those on both of our teams who will not like it....which is a good indication of "fairness" as I can devise.

In a moment, I will request a 24 hour extension on the current turn. Please accept this as an act of "good faith" on my part...an extra 24 hours for Chamnix to offer a handshake.

...as the turn has already been played.

Yours very truly,
-scoutsout

Here's something Fe sent me that I didn't bother to read. I only now forwarded it to Whomp and AdmK.

Spoiler :

no worries friend

what a great game this has become, while i was experienced in pbem and discouraged by the standard Demogame ... the exciting element of team dynamics is an unexpected delight.

I liked exchanging recipes with you

cheers

Werner

Now here's the one I was looking for. From Chamnix. I hope his feet are nice and toasty after being held to the fire for an evening.

Spoiler :

Scoutsout,

I gladly accept your offered 10-turn extension to the "spit and shake" peace agreement on behalf of Team MIA. I believe both sides have shown a genuine interest in peace, and we can continue to operate under "gentlemen's agreements" until we can get a formal deal ironed out.

I recognize your real life concerns as well. When Fe3333au first mentioned that he wanted me to take the full 24 hours to play our turn, I wasn't sure I would be able to comply depending on when we received the save. While it worked out fortunately for my schedule, I could just as easily have been forced either to play earlier or to request an extension as well.

That being said, I believe Fe3333au's main concern was that we no longer had a peace deal in place. Given our agreed peace extension so that we now have 10 additional turns to work out the details, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't send the turn on to the Doughnuts at your earliest convenience. It does not seem worthwhile force you to delay the game right now. If Fe3333au disagrees, then he will have nobody to blame but me.

Sincerely,

Chamnix

...and of course... my obligatory reply.

Spoiler :

Chamnix,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I consider our "Spit and Shake" non-agression pact renewed for 10 turns, and will inform Team KISS.

Now ...back to my mapping. I shall do my best to get a proposal in your team's hands before I forward the game to Team Doughnut.

Best regards,
-scout