Diplo for MIA

But you defined the line yourselves, it wasn't a joint effort AFAIK. You can't just draw up lines however you please and then use the other team's infraction of YOUR lines as a reason for war. I don't think it was stated anywhere in your treaty that lines can be drawn and crossing them will result in war. You have to wait the 10 turns (until 470 BC).
 
That's fine GA but it's just another reason for conflict if they disagree.
 
Fine by me! I just want to make clear that because you declared an end to the guarantee of peace at turn 94, you have to wait until turn 104 [470 BC] to officially declare war. I think we're clear on that.
 
Bede said:
During this period we will view any incursion of your troops or settlers north of The Line of Demarcation set forth in the attached map as an act of war and will respond accordingly.

Bede of KISS

You will note the "respond accordingly" clause. Nowhere does it say "declare war"....
 
What's not clear is why the rest of the agreement has not been followed. Why is the peace part of the agreement separate from 4 and 4b. This is one of the main bones of contention. If it's due to my words then so be it.
 
Here is the latest on the diplo front. My contention is we agreed to end "our" trading with MIA but nothing was stated about giving techs to other teams (IE monopoly cost and favoured nation would still be active).
RegentMan to Ginger Ale said:
I don't know if you got a copy of this or not. Do you have anything to say?

RegentMan said:
You need to abide by the peace agreement because of this:
Rule Violation said:
1 - MIA will delete the image from email, forums, and wherever else.
2 - KISS receives a rule violation warning.
3 - No punishment for Bede - he was acting on behalf of his team.
4 - The yellow line, because it was established with an illegal map, is now void. It cannot be reestablished.
5 - War cannot be declared by Team KISS nor Team MIA on each other before Turn 104, 470 BC, even if individual MIA units breach the imaginary line created by KISS.
Link. Please, this happened nearly ten turns ago. What would you like Ginger and myself to do?
Whomp said:
That is a completely separate issue and if you're imposing a 10 turn penalty, fine. However, we are talking about two completely separate issues. The reason that happened is because they broke our treaty.

So what I'm asking you is whether they've broke the "favoured nation and monopoly beaker" part of the treaty regardless of whether it was in the past. This is an ongoing problem and will continue to be a problem until we receive what is rightfully ours.

Tubby emailed them prior to the "line in the sand" what they owed us in beakers (techs) after finding out they gifted TNT (under the monopoly beaker clause) techs. They disagreed those clauses were in effect. Again, if that clause is not in effect how is any clause in effect? It's that simple.

Is one part of the agreement in effect (peace) and the other not (monopoly beaker clause and favoured nation)? If your interpretation is they are independent of each other (though they're in the same agreement)then I will accept your decision. If it's no then we have an ongoing issue.

The simple answer, to me, is if MIA follows through on "favoured nation and monopoly beaker clauses" then there are no issues. So either they compensate us like we requested or this agreement is void. Simple as that. Should they be penalized by turning off research for voiding that part of the agreement?

Here's some of that discussion on 1/25/06...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3619695&postcount=302

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3624027&postcount=310
Ginger Ale said:
In one of those threads you said:

"In that conversation Chamnix, Daghdha and I agreed that our current agreement would end after the delivery of techs between the two teams and the techs were delivered. Again I thank you."

Did you void the contract with MIA after you two exchanged techs? If so, then that clause would be out of effect, yet the peace until 10 turns have passed would still be in effect. You can't say one thing to someone and expect another.

But anyway - what do you seek to gain? What do you think would be fair 'compensation'?
Whomp said:
If you recall they didn't want to give poly at the time. My interpretation of this meant that our dealings together would end. This did not mean that dealings like gifting techs would end until the full agreement was satistified.

I would expect an equivalent equal to monopoly cost given to TNT and a 20% discount back to us. For this I think we are willing to negotiate a further extension of peace if they wish.
Today I received this...
MIA said:
Idiot Whomp and all the peoples of KISS

It is with great hope that we respond to Whomp's letter of February 15. Our continent is on the brink of war indeed, and MIA does not want to go to war against our neighbours to the north. With the goal of re-establishing peace, here is MIA's position:

We reiterate our point of view regarding our trade with TNT. Our honour is important to us, and we are insulted by your continuing accusations that we broke our deal:

1. The original 7 Tiers treaty is not crystal clear as to whether the tech trading portion can be broken independently of the peace portion or not. Whomp and Daghda (at least) felt it could be, and apparently some of the rest of KISS did not.

2. KISS sent an official letter to our gmail on January 4 stating clearly that the tech portion was cancelled. This lead us to believe that your interpretation was that the tech trading was independent of peace. This interpretation (of your official correspondence) was confirmed in a chat on January 7.

3. At no time did anyone from KISS tell us that this was not the correct interpretation. Over a week passed between the official correspondence, the follow-up chat among Chamnix, Whomp, Tubby and Daghda; and the completion of the deal between MIA and TNT. If anyone from KISS wanted to disavow the official correspondence of January 4 or the statements made in that chat, there was ample opportunity to do so. It is beyond our control if the text of the chat was not made available for the other member of KISS to read and respond to.

4. Though the 7 Tiers contained different possible interpretations, it was obvious to us which interpretation KISS had chosen because the tech trading portion was cancelled by the leaders of both teams in official correspondence. We acted completely honourably in pursuing the trade with TNT.

We are indeed disappointed about what our relationship has come to. We are glad in our hearts when we think back on how much stronger KISSMIA was becoming compared to BattleIsle before things went wrong. We have no desire to see war on our continent and remain very hopeful that it can be averted, especially since DNUTS (now under Kuningas) and TNT have declared an end to hostilities. An open dialogue would be in both parties' best interests and MIA wants to discuss how we can work together and work at peace.


Unilateral Oath of Peace:


We are willing to make the first step towards peace by declaring that MIA will NOT attack without giving you 5 turns warning. As a sign of good faith, we will not expect a similar promise from you: KISS is not bound in any way, shape, or form; this is a one-sided Promise.

Conditions:
> As long as you refrain from sending any units (or boats) south of the jungle (and turn around the units that are already south) then we will make good on our promise not to attack without warning.
> We will also reciprocate, and will refrain from sending any units or boats north of the jungle.
> This promise may only be honourably revoked with 5 turns official written notice.

We hope this will not be the new permanent state of our relationship – but rather this will serve as a good faith starting place for us to begin talking again.



Respectfully,

Feaurius III
 
Are they saying "please do not continue with your GS's on the wings because they will be able to walk right into undefended cities"? That is a big commitment just to have us move some stray units off their area. :D
They are obviously not ready to compensate for any of the TNT-dealings so that seems a dead end unless admins rules to our favour. I see nothing in that direction ATM.
My guess is we will be able to do some real damage if we keep our GS's E and W to draw attention and follow the Bede-plan. Maybe we shouldn't even wait until 110 but go ka-boom on 104 by the looks of their proposal.
 
Thoughts? Comments? OK to send? As someone said recently this game will be won as much out of game as in game so tell me to shut up if you think this is not a worthwhile pursuit.
MIA said:
We reiterate our point of view regarding our trade with TNT. Our honour is important to us, and we are insulted by your continuing accusations that we broke our deal:

1. The original 7 Tiers treaty is not crystal clear as to whether the tech trading portion can be broken independently of the peace portion or not. Whomp and Daghda (at least) felt it could be, and apparently some of the rest of KISS did not. .

2. KISS sent an official letter to our gmail on January 4 stating clearly that the tech portion was cancelled. This lead us to believe that your interpretation was that the tech trading was independent of peace. This interpretation (of your official correspondence) was confirmed in a chat on January 7th.

3. At no time did anyone from KISS tell us that this was not the correct interpretation. Over a week passed between the official correspondence, the follow-up chat among Chamnix, Whomp, Tubby and Daghda; and the completion of the deal between MIA and TNT. If anyone from KISS wanted to disavow the official correspondence of January 4 or the statements made in that chat, there was ample opportunity to do so. It is beyond our control if the text of the chat was not made available for the other member of KISS to read and respond to.

4. Though the 7 Tiers contained different possible interpretations, it was obvious to us which interpretation KISS had chosen because the tech trading portion was cancelled by the leaders of both teams in official correspondence. We acted completely honourably in pursuing the trade with TNT.
This is why we've tried to get clarification from the admins. Our interpretation was that the tech discussion was between usand we would each research independently from each other. You go your way and we go our way. Each keep our tech leads.

This did not include giving "our" research away. Our view is the moment you "gave away" techs the two clauses "favoured nation" and "monopoly techs" kicked in. Our view is the agreement would be over the moment all terms were complete (turn 104). After that anything goes. This did not happen.
MIA said:
We are indeed disappointed about what our relationship has come to. We are glad in our hearts when we think back on how much stronger KISSMIA was becoming compared to BattleIsle before things went wrong. We have no desire to see war on our continent and remain very hopeful that it can be averted, especially since DNUTS (now under Kuningas) and TNT have declared an end to hostilities. An open dialogue would be in both parties' best interests and MIA wants to discuss how we can work together and work at peace.
If we are made whole on our combined tech lead we are willing to discuss things further. If not let the cards fall where they may.

Until this occurs your oath of peace is simply not necessary nor in our best interest.
 
It sounds good to me. They have attempted to take the high moral ground. I'm not sure they have that. Although GA & RM seem to side with them that everything was done on the up and up, I think that your comment here says it all
Our interpretation was that the tech discussion was between usand we would each research independently from each other. You go your way and we go our way. Each keep our tech leads.

This did not include giving "our" research away. Our view is the moment you "gave away" techs the two clauses "favoured nation" and "monopoly techs" kicked in.

I would try to hold off on sending it until their turn comes to us. That way they have less turns to react to our saber rattling before the sabers are in a gut or two.

I have an unrelated question.... What happens if we are on their lux road? can we cut it or is that an act of war forbidden by the admin's ruling?
 
Tubby Rower said:
I have an unrelated question.... What happens if we are on their lux road? can we cut it or is that an act of war forbidden by the admin's ruling?
There is nothing to stop us from cutting off their roads as long as it's outside of their cultural borders. Remember the "line in the sand"? They can not draw the same line. ;)
 
Whomp said:
There is nothing to stop us from cutting off their roads as long as it's outside of their cultural borders. Remember the "line in the sand"? They can not draw the same line. ;)
I discussed this last week and we got an email from Ginger saying it was cool. However we are subject to the same insidious dealings from them. When we do it we must be prepared for war as soon as they show up to cut ours. Beginning turn 102 I would start cutting. By the time they get a hoplight up to do the same, and they will go for pillaging, we will be at 104 and be able to declare and take down thier attempt at cutting our roads.
 
this is all I have to say on the matter:

I am writing this letter because I take issue with some of Team MIA's memoranda. Unless you share my view that failure to define our terms more clearly will lead to a deluge of complaints by Team MIA's intimates, there's no need for you to hear me further. For one thing, Team MIA's teachings emphasize the formation of small units of drugged-out cohorts that can avoid detection by authorities, strike quickly and disperse, and, to some extent, defy the law of the land. But more important, Team MIA maintains that the health effects of secondhand smoke are negligible :smoke: This is hardly the case. Rather, there is growing evidence that says, to the contrary, that a great many of us don't want it to bar people from partaking in activities that cannot be monitored and controlled. But we feel a prodigious societal pressure to smile, to be nice, and not to object to its crass catch-phrases. The largest problem, however, is that if you've never seen Team MIA work both sides of the political fence, you're either incredibly unobservant or are concealing the truth from yourself. :mischief: The recent outrage at Team MIA's editorials may point to a brighter future. For now, however, I must leave you knowing that Team MIA goes ballistic every time I so much as hint that it has never seen a statistical correlation that it couldn't somehow turn into a causal claim fitting its directionless ideology.
:hammer:
 
What I'm basically saying is that if you feel they twisted the treaty, punish them for that in game. Raze their cities, declare war, don't trade with them, ally people against them, etc. Revenge will surely feel better that way too...
 
Here's a conversation with Fe. I didn't say when but also gave them no guarantees. Honestly cutting roads is not a declaration and I'd prefer to have them declare. Interesting times indeed.
Spoiler :
fe3333au (9:14:55 PM): Oh ... I'd like a quick chat KISS MIA ... regarding our last letter
bawhomp (9:15:05 PM): ok
fe3333au (9:15:45 PM): so you obviously got it ... and we have not seen any withdrawal of grider
bawhomp (9:15:58 PM): we got it
fe3333au (9:15:59 PM): are we to assume that that is an answer?
bawhomp (9:16:43 PM): we don't feel we've been satisfied by the way it's been handled
fe3333au (9:17:51 PM): fair enough ... and unfortunately nor do we ... so it seems that things are going to spiral into a scenario where neither od us, and indeed Nuts benefit
fe3333au (9:18:01 PM): *of
bawhomp (9:18:10 PM): could be
bawhomp (9:19:07 PM): unfortunate
fe3333au (9:20:39 PM): oh well in the words of Doris Day kay sera or how ever it is spelt
fe3333au (9:20:58 PM): sorry plumber finally came back LOL
bawhomp (9:21:10 PM): that's good. is it done?
fe3333au (9:21:35 PM): no he disconnected and drained it then left ... 10.30ish
fe3333au (9:21:51 PM): now 2.15pm and back to install the new one
bawhomp (9:22:09 PM): finally...eh
fe3333au (9:22:15 PM): but at least I got him to bring me milk ... as it is raining outside (and inside LOL)
bawhomp (9:22:18 PM): can i ask you something?
fe3333au (9:22:22 PM): sure
bawhomp (9:22:44 PM): why would should we make peace? What's the upside?
fe3333au (9:23:22 PM): Hmmm ... well the upside is that in war you will also hurt
fe3333au (9:23:36 PM): sorry that came out wrong
fe3333au (9:23:45 PM): but no one wins in war
bawhomp (9:24:06 PM): we can switch to monarchy
fe3333au (9:24:39 PM): sure ... but you will still be concentrating energy into war
fe3333au (9:25:00 PM): and in the interim D-Nuts leap ahead
bawhomp (9:25:56 PM): we are already behind so what's the difference?
fe3333au (9:27:10 PM): good question ... only KISS can answer that
bawhomp (9:27:22 PM): what's our upside in that deal?
bawhomp (9:27:25 PM): zero
fe3333au (9:28:26 PM): not necessarily ... who knows what the future holds
bawhomp (9:28:47 PM): i don't like what i see
bawhomp (9:28:57 PM): you made your bed
fe3333au (9:29:15 PM): All I am saying we of course don't want war ... and are willing to listen to any ideas to avert war
bawhomp (9:29:27 PM): hold on
fe3333au (9:29:34 PM): k
bawhomp (9:30:12 PM): back
bawhomp (9:31:03 PM): you have nothing for us it seems
bawhomp (9:31:22 PM): we have no upside and we can drag you down
fe3333au (9:32:30 PM): sure ... sorry had to move a new hot water cylinder
fe3333au (9:33:02 PM): I guess dark days are almost upon us
 
How does free ivory, 1/2 price on a non TNT derived tech (they got 2 of them together and we don't need engineering), a monopoly on the rest of the dyes, split land in half and 40 turns of peace with a 5 turn cancellation (how long do we need to bang on TNT? 50? 60?) Thoughts?
Spoiler :

fe3333au (9:11:59 PM): hey Bernie
bawhomp (9:12:09 PM): hi werndog
fe3333au (9:12:50 PM): dog is right ... had a bad night and just woke up ... feel fluy
bawhomp (9:13:10 PM): i sent you a pm
fe3333au (9:13:44 PM): I am just reading it and it has also been posted on the KISS thread by Chamnix
bawhomp (9:13:53 PM): ok
fe3333au (9:14:27 PM): so bear with me ... I am very foggy and a little disorientated ... hopefully tea will help
fe3333au (9:19:03 PM): The issue came down to separate interpretation of the things that happened ... and it is evident that both teams feel that they were in the right ... so disengaging our respective opinions and feeling is a big hurdle ... however I KNOW that MIA do not want war ... so if KISS also do not want war ... then there is hope for peace ... in principal at least.
fe3333au (9:19:44 PM): Problem is where to start.
bawhomp (9:20:12 PM): ok
bawhomp (9:20:26 PM): we can't offer each other anything but peace
fe3333au (9:22:44 PM): at this stage ... yes ... although we are open to disuss any options to create a less tense environment
bawhomp (9:23:18 PM): there's not much we can contribute so peace would be a start
bawhomp (9:23:24 PM): how long?
fe3333au (9:24:58 PM): as long as is possible ... our status is that at the moment we have 2 MA techs on you that we are unable to trade ... TNT stipulation ... however after that we are untethered
fe3333au (9:25:48 PM): We are more than happy to divide the continent in half ... would that help?
bawhomp (9:26:21 PM): maybe
bawhomp (9:26:41 PM): i think we should be given some consideration in that regard
bawhomp (9:26:49 PM): extra space
bawhomp (9:27:32 PM): we gave you the jungle lux space and in hindsight shouldn't have
fe3333au (9:28:12 PM): Good possibility ... also we only have one dye in city radius ... if Flaxon Musk doesn't expand then we will remain with only one and perhaps you could grab the other and therefore have monopoly on trading this lux?
bawhomp (9:28:41 PM): it's a start
fe3333au (9:29:45 PM): brb just getting panadol ... btw lst was x-post
fe3333au (9:31:02 PM): back ... what about our next tech half price?
fe3333au (9:31:35 PM): These are only thoughts as well
bawhomp (9:31:37 PM): we could work on that. we would appreciate that
bawhomp (9:31:51 PM): how many turns?
fe3333au (9:33:08 PM): well we have been concentrating on other matters too busy to research hard ... but I think that it would be in the late single digits
fe3333au (9:34:05 PM): sorry cannot concrete you a number at this stage ...
bawhomp (9:34:19 PM): late single meaning 7,8,9 turns?
fe3333au (9:34:45 PM): yes-ish ... as I said I don't have that info and MM would have to happen
bawhomp (9:35:08 PM): are you saying 7-9 peace turns?
fe3333au (9:36:40 PM): No until we get the next tech ... peace I would hope run for longer but have a X turn cancellation clause (very well worded so as not to be open to misinterpretatio)
fe3333au (9:37:04 PM): What sort of number would you be comfortable with.
fe3333au (9:37:40 PM): We could also give Ivory so you wouldn't have to negotiate it from TNT
bawhomp (9:37:59 PM): ok
bawhomp (9:38:45 PM): i'll ask the team about peace. i don't think they'll go for a long cancellation clause. this past one was a mess and it still is an issue
bawhomp (9:39:05 PM): 40-50 turns maybe?
fe3333au (9:40:08 PM): Also a respect boaders .... in fact if we divide the continent then ... no unauthorised entry would have to be also agreed to
fe3333au (9:40:52 PM): Oh I see what you mean 40 or 50 turns of peace that it unalterable
fe3333au (9:41:08 PM): We would certainly agree to that
bawhomp (9:41:32 PM): ok that's probably the best thing to start on. one thing at a time
bawhomp (9:41:42 PM): separate agreements
fe3333au (9:41:59 PM): yes ... easy language
bawhomp (9:42:06 PM): k
fe3333au (9:42:23 PM): so can you recap for me?
bawhomp (9:42:34 PM): 40 or 50 turns of peace
bawhomp (9:42:40 PM): others
bawhomp (9:42:49 PM): furs
bawhomp (9:42:55 PM): settlement
fe3333au (9:43:14 PM): fur? ... don't you mean Ivory?
bawhomp (9:43:37 PM): ivory right everyone has furs right?
fe3333au (9:43:54 PM): yes well we both do
bawhomp (9:43:56 PM): 1/2 price on tech
fe3333au (9:44:22 PM): settlement is half land you the other us
fe3333au (9:44:41 PM): you get dye monoploy
bawhomp (9:45:23 PM): ok let's start with peace first
bawhomp (9:45:32 PM): then get that done
bawhomp (9:45:48 PM): the others need work
fe3333au (9:46:09 PM): sorry I will not interrupt if I want expanded i will simply press ?
bawhomp (9:46:26 PM): let's bring peace to our teams
bawhomp (9:46:46 PM): and get something done. I think I can work that out in KISS
bawhomp (9:47:34 PM): with the understanding that there will be some opportunity to expand separate deals
fe3333au (9:47:50 PM): yes
bawhomp (9:48:19 PM): one deal at a time is the key methinkgs
fe3333au (9:48:24 PM): so recal one last time ... I will not interrupt only if I get confused
bawhomp (9:48:27 PM): methinks*
bawhomp (9:48:40 PM): peace
bawhomp (9:48:45 PM): furs
bawhomp (9:48:53 PM): settlement
bawhomp (9:49:01 PM): ivory not furs
bawhomp (9:49:13 PM): dye monopoly
bawhomp (9:49:23 PM): 1/2 price on tech
fe3333au (9:49:30 PM): what does settlement mean?
bawhomp (9:49:36 PM): 50/50
fe3333au (9:49:51 PM): peace for 40 to 50?
bawhomp (9:49:58 PM): yes
bawhomp (9:50:08 PM): i will try 50 but we'll see
bawhomp (9:50:29 PM): maybe 40 with 5 turn cancellation
fe3333au (9:50:36 PM): I am really feeling good about this
bawhomp (9:50:50 PM): ok well let's work on this
fe3333au (9:51:07 PM): will you guys draft something?
bawhomp (9:51:14 PM): i will work on it
bawhomp (9:51:21 PM): tomorrow
fe3333au (9:51:33 PM): excellent
fe3333au (9:53:21 PM): I'll post this chat now ...
bawhomp (9:53:40 PM): ok
fe3333au (9:54:11 PM): Will Grinder move or not until we agree in concretre?
bawhomp (9:56:21 PM): i think it's a possibility
fe3333au (9:56:40 PM): and so is Bede's Boat getting home
bawhomp (9:56:44 PM): i will suggest a stand down along with your horse
fe3333au (9:57:22 PM): mot sure what horse ... is there one in your territory?
bawhomp (9:57:33 PM): starting to threaten
fe3333au (9:57:57 PM): What exactly means standdown ...
bawhomp (9:58:16 PM): back off
 
Holy cow Whomp!!!!

You could talk the balls off a sex criminal!!

excellent work :goodjob:
 
Indeed. :banana:
 
Tempting though this proposal is, we need to consider why they are so desperately trying to avoid war... sure, they may have MDI, but I suspect no infrastructure to sustain a decent production of them.
 
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