Diplomacy with the Eagles

[templar_x]

We should not tell them yet. Let us execute the Lit deal first, and have you talk a bit more to your special friend d7. (i do not envy you.) After Lit (do we know when it is ready? we could ask...) and before Rep, this is the point when we will let them know about our internal discussion and vote result.

Eagles - first things first. first we try to find out what kind of deals they are in already. and who they mean by deer and cow. then we offer CoL for sth. They do not need to know how close to Rep we already are.

t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

So we must tell the Anarchos now "there will be no alliance", then we are free to trade.

Why? Could we simply ask Eagles tell nothing to our friends?

 

[templar_x]

What about:

Dear Calis, who knows a lot that is hidden,
dear Eagles,

our foreign minister is still confused about the very different set of posts that we have seen from you so far. But it takes a knight to stand above such things and reach the hands out for friendship, even if they were pushed back already once.

However, without wanting to become technical, we still must point out that it is "Knights who say Ni" and not "Knights of the Ni". Anyway, back to the topic.

Some of our knights brothers believe to understand subtle messages in your latest post that could remain veiled to those that are unattentative. Their analyse says that you may still seek for a fair partner to develop and share those ideals of liberty and freedom, any may not have find the right people to do that with.
We need to state that, while their understandings of subtleties are very sensible at times, these brothers were sometimes simply drunk the night before...

So we would like to learn a bit more about how your plans in the nearer future, or even the more distant future, are.

We would like to engage into such talks into some details, as we just met and need to learn many things about each other. We, too, are striving towards the ideals you mentioned. Only lately we mastered that tech that you are currently researching. We can assure you that it is a nice thing to know these "Code of Laws" as early as possible, and that our people are very happy about the justice it brings to them and the paths for further research it opens up.

This opens up another question, that is, why you should continue to invest beakers into said technology, and we do not find another way to let your people participate its benefits, and find a way how our people can also benefit from such a co-operation as well. Some say, that we gave you some support for your research simply by meeting you on your coast, however, we have no clue how this actually works, when we sent only sailors and an emissary, and no scientists on our boat.
One thing we need to know however, if we start negotiations about trades and other means of cooperation, is whether your tribe is free to do so, or whether you did already enter into obligations that require that we have to talk to another party as well. Being a reformed sort of knights, we would be open for that kind of diplomacy also, but for obvious reasons we need to know.

Maybe you can soon give us some information on how you see this, and then we could arrange an intense discussion between our emissary (Sir Lanzelot) and probably you (Calis) to quickly get to a point where each of us can derive how our peoples can benefit from the happy fact that we met here on the shores of this very nice continent.
(Read: We suggest to have you two in a chatroom soon, and the log posted for further discussion within the teams.)

KBH


templar_x

Dear knights of the Ni,

After the first bumpy contact, we now want to assure you that the Flock would be very interested in a close co-operation between our peoples.

To show you our honest intentions, we herewith inform you that we are currently researching Code of Laws to get a new government in a reasonable frame of time. We would like to hear about your plans and how we might be able to co-operate to our mutual benefit.

Calis of the Flock

Greetings to the honored and fearsome knights of Ni.

We are glad to have met another civilization like ours on this world. We seek to spread the ideas of liberty and freedom to all the peoples of the Earth, but have so far only come across cows and deer, and they don't seem to quite get it.

Thank you for your trade offer, but we unfortunately have nothing to offer you in exchange for Iron Working at this time, all we have is Spam.

We wish you well on your quest for the Holy Grail, and we are curious as to what direction you came from. Your sailors seem to have slipped away.

Sincerely, the Convocation of the Eagle Empire.

 

[I. Larkin]

It is iportant to find out somehow about their relationship with DK. We may say that we are at good partnership with Anarchies.

 

[templar_x]

L- did Calis already contact you?

for my taste, they need a bit long for a response. too long to be really enthusiastic about our offer.

either they are talking about internally, or with the Küche, or both.

there is one thing we really need to take care of: they could seemingly go into a cooperation with us, while in fact they only take our techs and stay in an alliance with the Küche. they rip us off, and give them our techs. when we find out, they become hostile.

no need to mention what the Anarchos will say when they find out. So we would stand there without an ally.

this must not happen. otherwise, everything else is fine with me.

templar_x

 

[Memento]

Wow

Dear Brothers of the Hood,

Of course we already guessed your path of research. And as you already assumed it’s a path that we also want to follow as it gives us more power.

As for the Code of Laws that we are currently researching, I see no reasonable way to include it in any deal, as we will have it finished very soon. It is true that our meeting reduced he difficulty to invent such a code, but we see it as given and not a proactive aid you gave to us, to be frank.

But nonetheless, we really would like to co-operate with “The Brotherhood”. We can assure you that so far we are not in any deeper negotiations with anybody, thus, we are free to negotiate right now without affecting any other deals. But as you also pointed out, we would like to speed up negotiations. So we would like to make the following rough plan that has to be filled with numbers, of course:

You already started researching Republic that needs 700 beakers to be researched. We would like to get it as soon as possible of course.

Our offer would be to research the following techs and give them to you as soon as they are done, or you need them (considering the costs reduction effect for our common opponents):

This would also be our preferred order:

Map Making: 300
Literature: 250
Mathematics: 200

We added 50 beakers as a kind of interest for your prepayment of Republic, if that is agreeable for you.

Of course we could also accompany this tech treaty with a non-aggression pact for a certain amount of time, if you would agree to this.

We are looking forward to hearing from you.

Calis of the Flock

Thats a good offer.
But i think this is to late........

 

[templar_x]

they could give us a few coins for CoL, and start on the next tech...

if we can arrange for everyone to research the right techs, this opens up some interesting possibilities.
the problem is that we really have to decide... cause if we take the Eagles´ techs, the Anarchos would immediately see that.

but most of all, i would like them in the chat with L. we need to know some things:
+ how do they get along with the Küche?
+ why don´t they have the most pop?
+ what tribe are they? and the Küche?
etc

Of course, 50 beakers worth in other techs is nothing. Rep so early is worth so much more than that.

templar_x

 

[Memento]

+ why don´t they have the most pop?

Calis build many many Workers in the beginning of his Game

 

[I. Larkin]

I think we should reply ASAP. Saying that we are in good research partnership, but interesting Rep to MM deal.
Are they interested to Ma vs Kuche?
We may offer CoL for few coins and information.
Are they scientific? Rep for MM and MA tech half price....

Edit L, will you write something? I think we can write to Eagles that we hve been "engaged" to some research plan, but we interested for cooperation...
What they can offer instead of Lit and matht?

 

[templar_x]

Lanzelot???

We really need to get going.

To earn their trust, I believe we should tell the Eagles openly
- that we are in some kind of research alliance on our continent
- that it is pretty sure that this alliance will not last forever and that we see clear signs that the others want war some day, and we therefore want them as our long-term allies
- that we can imagine an alliance that lasts even until a ss victory, or another point of time late in the game
- that we do not believe we will find that ally in the Küche

WHILE AND BEFORE WE ARE GIVING THIS INFO, I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO THEIR FOREIGN MINISTER THAT OF COURSE THEY MUST NOT TALK TO THE ANARCHOS ABOUT IT, AS WELL AS HAVE TO LAY OPEN WHAT KIND OF DEALS THEY HAVE WITH THE KÜCHE. OR WHICH KIND OF TROUBLES.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Lanzelot???

We really need to get going.

To earn their trust, I believe we should tell the Eagles openly
- that we are in some kind of research alliance on our continent
- that it is pretty sure that this alliance will not last forever and that we see clear signs that the others want war some day, and we therefore want them as our long-term allies
- that we can imagine an alliance that lasts even until a ss victory, or another point of time late in the game
- that we do not believe we will find that ally in the Küche

WHILE AND BEFORE WE ARE GIVING THIS INFO, I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO THEIR FOREIGN MINISTER THAT OF COURSE THEY MUST NOT TALK TO THE ANARCHOS ABOUT IT, AS WELL AS HAVE TO LAY OPEN WHAT KIND OF DEALS THEY HAVE WITH THE KÜCHE. OR WHICH KIND OF TROUBLES.

templar_x

Ok, looks like Ivan and you are both in favor of this plan, so go ahead. I'm not confronting it.

 

[templar_x]

But are you talking to them already? I have Not used a chatroom in ages...

T_x

Edit: Calis and I are in contact. Probably we will start talking in 1h. If there is sth else you want me to negotiate... let me know now.

 

[templar_x]

alright. let's go. What's your guys idea regarding our proposal?22:44

templar_x says


generally speaking we are all pro it22:44
however we have to clear a few things first..

calis says


go ahead22:44

templar_x says


only very few things that are important to us... sorry if i become technical22:45
but we need to be able to assume that whatever we are talking about now stays stricly confidential..
can we agree on this?..

calis says


definately. Just my team will see this.22:46

templar_x says


like mine. ok22:46
i want to speak very openly, because there is a special situation both of our teams seem to be in..

calis says


yepp22:46

templar_x says


if we want to progress fast, we need to rush a bit through the phase of learning to know each other.22:47
until now even the two of us only know that the other holds quite a few hof #1-spots ..

calis says


working on more 22:48

templar_x says


ok, for what i believe we need to know as some raw data...22:50
i will start with stating , that our knights´ nation is Carthago22:51
so we were planning to play rather peacefully..

calis says


We assumed that already22:51
Did you also guess who we are?22:52

templar_x says


not me, but we have our magicians22:52
but i cannot access the thread right now hahahaha22:53
i believe they said Byzanz..
*still trying to open*..

calis says


Not a bad guess...22:53
I will try to copy that into our forum, just know whether it works. gimme a minute22:54

templar_x says


ok. ahhh,now i got it.22:55
they said you must be seafaring...
either Byz, or Port or England..

calis says


Your industrial trait was easier to be identified...22:56

templar_x says


by the speed of our improvements?22:56

calis says


right22:56

templar_x says


ok, you will let me know some time whether i was only guessing well, or right, or wrong...22:57
did it work?..

calis says


nope, I can't mark the text :-(22:57

templar_x says


the traits of our civs is the one important thing, that is why i am starting with this22:58

calis says


Well, if you have to chose between Portugal, England and The Byzantines, what would your choice be?22:58

templar_x says


the other important factor is how we are getting along with our nighbours22:58
i sure would not take portugal..
england and the byz are both fine. personally i probably would choose the byz in a game like that, and france against AIs22:59
oh... copy/paste does not work?..
that is bad..
i tried, it did work for me23:00

calis says


hmmm23:00
ahh, ok it works for me, too now. go ahead...23:01

templar_x says


well, i did 23:01
wrong smiley..
23:02
you typing or eating dinner?..

calis says


I am typing...23:03
Well, ok, let's get that straight. We are the Byzantines. That is why Literature would be important for us.23:04

templar_x says


logical23:04
and how do you get along with the Küche?..
obviously they are not researching Lit for you?!?!23:05

calis says


We just met them shortly before we met you (or you us).23:05

templar_x says


how come???23:05

calis says


Well it seems that our scouting units managed to get past each other regularly.23:06

templar_x says


must be like that. they do not even reply to our welcome notice23:06

calis says


That's not nice behaviour23:06

templar_x says


we have met the civ to share the continent with us quite a while ago already23:06

calis says


And do you get along with them?23:07

templar_x says


it is not (nice behaviour). however, i remember another tribe that immediately demanded that we provide WH when we met them...23:07

calis says


....23:07
That was a mistake and we apologized for that23:08

templar_x says


we already wondered why you did not yet have seemed to exchange any serious techs with them. and could not explain to us how your contact could have gone so long.23:08
yes, you did. ..
i should have added a smiley23:09
Cyc wrote a whole book about it, but did not really ... whatever. not what we wanted to talk about..
as i said, our relations with the Anarchie already last for quite a while23:10
(coming to the next point...)..
and they seem to develop quite well23:11

calis says


With d7 they have at least one outstanding player, I'd say.23:11

templar_x says


i do not know him, as i do not know anyone from the team. since the ISDG started i read a few threads over at civforum. honestly, i could not say. but obviously you and many from our team know him better, and everyone says he is a very good player23:12
but HE is saying that justanick and another player from Küche were so much better... 23:13
i realize i am typing 90% of the words. either i am waffling, or i am the faster typer of the two of us :- )))..

calis says


justanick seems to have deep knowledge of the game. I never saw him playing any game, though. But I think he is excellent, too.23:14
So no team seems to lack good players.....

templar_x says


yupp.23:14

calis says


Unlikely that an Austrian is fatser than a German 23:15
faster I mean..

templar_x says


you never watched skiing, did you?23:15
..

calis says


Not really, no23:15

templar_x says


me neither.23:15

calis says


More Formula 123:15

templar_x says


no again23:16

calis says


But back to topic. What is your idea of treating the respective civ on our continents.23:16

templar_x says


but let me check on the fastest finishes on standard maps...23:16
..
yes, back to topic...
as i had said, we originally had planned to play peacefully..

calis says


If you met Anarchy a while ago, there has probably hapened some negotiations23:16
originally23:17
?..
but now?..

templar_x says


and then met the Anarchos, and we seemed to agree on a lot of points23:17
so to enter into a continental alliance..
as i said, i am authorized to talk very openly. if we fail to get somewhere, you will know a lot about us.23:18
no worries..
(we are the ones with a government )..
seriously.....
things became a bit difficult, to say the least..
we did not really know why, but then found out (or let´s be fair: believed to quite surely found out) that the negotiations with us about a peaceful alliance were seconded by their internal plans to engage into a war with us23:20
still we did actually already start and engage into a joint research program, which means that at least for the moment we are quite a bit ahead..

calis says


I basically have the impression that those Civ Forum guys are rather agressive23:21
in game of course ..
That is, why we basically prefer to have a deal with a civ of the other continent..

templar_x says


let me think... we are on another continent...23:22

calis says


wow, good point23:22

templar_x says


btw, do you happen to know or can you guess which tribe the Küche is?23:22

calis says


No, we are really confused about them23:23
And what about Anarchy..

templar_x says


we believe the Küche is Persia, France or Osmania23:23

calis says


Persia would be fearsome in the early game23:24

templar_x says


Anarchy we do know, and we will let you know when we find an agreement. until then, i can tell you, that they are not seafaring23:25

calis says


That is just fair!23:25

templar_x says


honestly, we fear that they use us to get an advantage over the other continent, and then turn against us23:26
like you said, they defenitely have very good players..
this is why we also prefer to ally with someone from the other continent..

calis says


As I mentioned, we currently do not have any deal (except for minor trades) with Küche23:27

templar_x says


this gives several opportunities for how the game continues23:28

calis says


And of course, the outcome of this negotiations will decide about future plans23:28

templar_x says


like: if both of us agree to prepare to take over each continent, respectively23:28
then we could either agree that some time in a future, our alliance ends, as fair partners and allies, and then we play everything out between us23:29
or we could agree on a space ship competition..
and stay peaceful towards each other for the whole game ..
and even you abstain from using nukes this time )))..

calis says


hehe23:29
But for such an endgame agreement it is far too early right now. 23:30
But I think it is a rather good idea to ally against the continental opponents. I do not have an idea whether they already met, or not. They will immediately ally, too.23:31

templar_x says


they have not. WE know23:32
how would you imagine the goal of such an alliance then?..

calis says


That's good news, I'd say23:33

templar_x says


only short term?23:33

calis says


The same as ours?23:33

templar_x says


i meant, did you guys only consider short term goals in an alliance? 23:33

calis says


Not me personally, and I am sure also not the team23:34
I have no problem with an alliance until we are the two remaining civs...

templar_x says


we had some good discussion going already, that is why i can say that we had discussed at least those two options for the later game (if an alliance builds and each civ can gain its continent)23:35
quite a few in our team are in favor of sth like that (as far as i can tell)..

calis says


That is good.23:37
We have one thing that puts us under time pressure. As soon as you send us your turn, we'll have..
CoL finished and need to decide what to research next..

templar_x says


anything else from the eagles side that you have already contemplated?23:38

calis says


If we get to a deal, we'd start Map Making of course23:38

templar_x says


yes, we will but fast enough for that, i am sure23:38
if you start MM, we could provide Lit for example23:39

calis says


Nothing more from our side. Everybody is just interseted about your ideas and attitude towards us and an alliance.23:39
I think you already started Republic?..

templar_x says


of course23:39
but we already provided to the Anarchie what they will give us Lit for...23:40

calis says


So our idea was to do MM, Literature and Maths for your Republic.23:40

templar_x says


exactly, that would be my next point.23:40
aside from MM, that would not help us much. but we need to discuss that and find an agreement23:41
i believe you will need that as well, especially if the Küche really is Persia.....
then you might be a bit in a hurry...

calis says


So what would you like to get for Rep?23:43

templar_x says


before we found out, that the agreement we had formulated with the Anarchie, and what they obviously must have discussed internally, was quite a bit apart, we did practically seal everything for the joint research pact that i had mentioned above23:43
we believe it would not make any sense but to bluntly tell you that this is in place. but it will not last, because now we know about their real plans..
what we would like to have for Rep is MM + a 50% discount on your free MA tech23:44
but we need to adjust a few parameters to be able to make that deal so the Anarchie does not find out, that we already found out, what they are planning to do23:45

calis says


Such a decision I can't make here of course.23:45
But it seems reasonable to me at least23:46

templar_x says


of course. it is a first idea anyway.23:46
you know, our research is able to get many techs within a very short period already. so AA techs are not very valuable to us..

calis says


Yeah, but still you need them at some point23:47

templar_x says


plus, until the A "realize that we realized" they will still provide some more technologies23:47
and they seem to be #2 in beakers behind us right now..

calis says


Be not too sure about that last point 23:49

templar_x says


i am not, it was just a guess23:49

calis says


strange smiley thing here23:49
Whes is the ETA for your Republic research=23:50
?..

templar_x says


soon. +/- 10 turns23:51
how long would you need to get there, absolutely max speed?..

calis says


I'd guess about 20 turns. But just a rough guess23:52

templar_x says


i am asking because, if we start this, should not let the Anarchie know immediately when they meet you that you got Rep from us.23:53
because i assume you would like to have it asap..
but maybe we can time it so that you at least theoretically could have researched it yourself..

calis says


As mentioned in our proposal, we would love to get it as a prepayment for whatever you want from us, yes.23:53

templar_x says


however, we would support you with whatever else we could gain from the trades with Anarchie23:54
especially with whatever you need to gain control over your continent..
if it is really immortals you are up against, in their GA, you may need a bit of that23:55
these techs we would not intend to trade to you at full costs..
if that does sound fair to you..

calis says


yes, it does.23:56
Alright, how do we finish today?..

templar_x says


i only need to say, nobody knows how long these trades can go on. many in our team are not really excited to know that we had negotiated an alliance with the Anarchie only to see that the very first deal was not really one that they should plan to keep forever23:57
do you have curraghs out to explore?..
or Küche (as far as you know)?..

calis says


We have of course. We did not see any boats from Küche, yet.23:58

templar_x says


we believe that you should stop scouting towards our continent, so to not to meet the Anarchie23:58
this would make everything a lot more complicated with tech trade23:59
this is only a recommendation, because we believe it would benefit our alliance..

calis says


Hm, I am not sure whether I can convince my team mates of this.23:59
But we'll see...

templar_x says


we would be ready to provide you the geographical information.23:59
or whatever you were looking for0:00

calis says


I need to find an end now. Do you have some time left on your turn clock? Or is a time-out necessary?0:00

templar_x says


we have enough time left0:01
2 more points.....

calis says


ok0:01

templar_x says


of course we would want to agree that you do not pass Republic to the Küche0:01
this should be logical, but it needs to be said..
(or any other tech we trade you, except if both of us agree)0:02

calis says


We would be stupid to do it. Our plan is to keep them as backward as possible.0:02

templar_x says


how soon do you believe you would be ready to strike to gain control of your continent?0:03
and what would you need for this (and what would you need us to supply)?..

calis says


That is very hard to guess. We are in our expansion phase and try to avoid conflicts right now.0:03

templar_x says


is there a lot of land still unsettled on your continent? it seems like you are going for a ultra fast rex0:04

calis says


There is some space left, yes0:04

templar_x says


can you make an estimate? 0:04
because we should then try to agree on a combined approach0:05
as you said, the two civforum civs will immediately ally of course..

calis says


I agree on a combined approach, but I do not dare to guess, really.0:05

templar_x says


what do you think about the late AA? can you manage to muster an army until then and keep that plan hidden?0:06
i would say we need to do this with our teams:..
- let them discuss whether they think what we were talking about was wise or nonsense0:07
- find a "Republic deal"..
- find a common idea of what is the ultimate goal of this alliance, and what should come right after that..

calis says


agreed0:08
I'll post the chat in our forum right after we finished and my fellow American team mates have time to discuss, while I take a bit of sleep0:09

templar_x says


anything else?0:11
for today?..

calis says


not from my side, no0:11

templar_x says


can you live with a no nukes deal?0:11
hahaha..

calis says


We are not going to nuke you within the next 100 turns, ok?0:12

templar_x says


even more 0:12
but you are REALLY lagging in research, right?..
..

calis says


0:12

templar_x says


well then, I promise we won´t start the ss while you sleep tonight then0:13
i will post our conversation to my team..

 

[templar_x]

that was the whole conversation, cutting out only very little personal chatting.

what do you guys think?

i am ready to take the punches if i messed up. of course it was Lanzelots fault then, letting the only player who never played a PBEM before do the diplo...

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

Sorry, was away...
But OK in first approximation.

i think you could tell, that we want to trade Rep for MM+something, but not LIt and Math.

 

[I. Larkin]

Our deals with Eagles should be different from scheme we had with Anarchos.

We may trade MM for literature and Rep for gpt. We may offer 40-60% discount if they agree to do the same for their MA tech.

Mistakes of Lanzelot in his Diplomacy with Anarchos that he promised too much (far too much, I must say that they start thinking that we are stupid). A lot of commitments he wants to incur to our team restrict freedom of choice so much that I experience discomfort.

I think Eagles clever enough not to make 30 turn NAP, it means nothing, actually. We may offer 5 turn NAP as an instrument to express our loyalty/ anger.

 

[Lanzelot]

My diplomacy with the Anarchos was perfect from a long-term strategic point of view (even though you others tried your best to sabotage it... )

I made them strong enough to be a useful research partner, without them noticing. (In fact they even still believe they are stronger than us...!) And the more they think we are stupid, the better for us.
But why, oh why, is everyone only seeing small short-term gains ("peanuts"), instead of the big picture?

 

[I. Larkin]

... because small bird in hand better then crane in the sky. Until now Anarchos managed to do what they want. We want MM they started Lit, we want free trade they want "full management". We want Northen chanel town they did not give it to us...
Our dance under their supervision looks ridicules...

Also, your "long term strategy" may be a trap for us, we always need a back door like support from Eagles.

 

[templar_x]

In fact, if the Anarchie and the Eagles are our competitors for victory, then we should really not have too long-term plans! Both of them are scientific, and if they grow as strong or nearly as strong as we do, their trait will become more powerful than ours!

Better take the scientific opponents out, or do not let them become too strong, if you are thinking long-term!

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Until now Anarchos managed to do what they want.

Well, why shouldn't they?? Until now nothing is signed yet, no research plan and no settlement plan, so they are free to do what they like. (We are doing exactly the same: as long as no treaty is signed, we are currently negotiating with the other continent, giving them information about our own, something the Anarchos didn't want us to do...)
If we want a good cooperation to start now, we need to tell them what we want, e.g "they start MM now, we Math after Rep is done, both will finish around the same time, and then they can do the "small stuff" trying for an SGL, while we do Currency". If we keep silent now, they will of course again start what makes the most sense for them (Math), and I would do the same in their situation.

Better take the scientific opponents out, or do not let them become too strong, if you are thinking long-term!

This is what I'm trying to do. We already secured the MA free tech from the Anarchos, and the Eagles will not reach the MA, if we play this right... In any case, giving Rep to both is not wise. Why make both of them strong? Use one to get an advantage over the other, and after the first one is elminated, turn around and deal with the second. Trying to do both things at once will only lead to disaster.