[Discussion] The "Too Much Money Problem" (aka "Late Game Boredom")

[VegetableRights]

I really don't think it is the domestic market causing too much wealth.

The domestic market does its job perfectly because it is limited by being demand based. It is the exports due to unrestricted productivity that causes the runaway wealth. It is a fact that you can create a lot of wealth, but you can spend it on military and win the game sooner. It is the purpose of the end game after all.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

especially after the adoption of some FFs into Congress

 

[Bomax]

It is a fact that you can create a lot of wealth, but you can spend it on military and win the game sooner.

Or just invest money to expend our empire and to try to produce every good? Actually, I use most of the money to speed up constructions as the start game in marathon is pretty slow... but I
also occasionally buy some new ship/carriage/units. Despite that, I never was able to produce every good for my colonies.

I would say that adding upkeep cost to unit would not be a problem in end game... but that another story for the early/middle game.

 

[adriankowaty]

In regards to issue of "too much money", some ideas of mine, mostly in form of costs:
- administrative costs: the more cities you have, the more you pay costs to mantain their administration, similarly to city mantainance mechanic from vanilla Civ IV. Basically you need (abstract) officials to ran up daily life of your cities and the more cities you have, the more expensive it becomes.
- land tax: you pay tax to your sovereign from land you own (tiles coloured in your maneer). The greater amount of land, the more cost/tax.
- mantaince of units: each unit you have in profession outside walls of settlement (pioneer, any soldier, ship, colonist, missionary, trader) costs money to mantainance. Since I tend to get a lot of "idle" units in my main port accumulating from growth and migration and since you need military to defend your colony against Natives, other colonies and, ultimately, your own King during War of Independence, this is another source of costs. This can be somewhat balanced with slight (smaller than costs) income per unit employed in production within city walls, representing locally levied taxes paid to you as governor.

 

[Buffalo Solider]

Maintenence of units - I'm fully on. Especially ships, but maybe even all laborers.... Ship crews deserve something better! Right now they're allowed to eat ropes and sailcloth until they hit sea where they can eat whatever they manage to fish

I thought about how whole economy in game is pretty strangely organized... You just tell people what to do, they give you products for free, or money for products they produce, but how do they "earn" money they give you? The core of game is main source of "Too much money". All people in game are just your slaves. They work for only food and accomodation (depending on how you look at things - not even that x_x) and protection

I think village/town markets (at least in current game setup) should give no profits. Operating it should be necessary just for managing happiness. First of all - where people take money from? Second of all - why would they be happy to pay for something they "deserve". It's their goods, that produced those.

 

[Buffalo Solider]

Maybe liberty % = amount of money you pay for labor? ( i'm not so sure it's great idea but I'll put it anyway) at 100% liberty you pay full wages (whatever these are (prob. need to be pretty high) ) but people give you more products. If you care about goods and not about money, then it's good tradeoff. And in early game when you need money and not goods, you are better off making your people loyal subject of king that are just working for food and privlege of living in "coolest colony" of the "coolest king" in the world.

Maybe make it into steps, so it doesn't look ugly like "0.023 gold for 0.00something% liberty in jamestown". Instead it could be 0-20% = none 20-40% = 10 gold per worker per turn, 80-100% = 40 gold/worker/turn..

Basically there need to be other money sink (than imports). Money in games come from sources - labor/treasuries/trade and goes to sinks. This (and orgnial col, too) game lacks sinks.

Equipment for workers (mentioned in other idea) is not money sink. Education is not really sink, too. These 2 are just capital.

 

[adriankowaty]

Equipment for workers (mentioned in other idea) is not money sink. Education is not really sink, too. These 2 are just capital.

I am principally against equipment for on city screen workers because it doesn't solve the "outflow" problem in late game, as that's based on ever expanding exports as Europe, Africa and Port Royal are bottomless source of demand for your production, with only limit being tax rate which basically lowers your income per sale and doesn't really cap (I was having once situation of close to 95% tax rate in Europe) and this source of income only drains when you do revolution (unless you choose monarchy as your model of government or relly on smugglers to ship your goods to Port Royal instead.
It only makes start to early game more demanding for player to secure production chain of supplies as soon or possible or face cost of importing it en masse from Europe.
I am fine with worktools (or what ever they are named) being used by pioneers, or settlers, ie on map units you set up cities or build improvements with, as they are an investment regardless to train domestically (as are soldiers, artillery and ships), however giving them to professions in town only slows early game when player is permamently low on money to set up any industry and ship goods to Europe. My another problem with is tied to logistics but it's not a topic of this discussion.
I can understand paying wages to your on town workers (though balanced with income from domestic demand and culture) on top of map units though.
The idea to scale such mantainance "wages" with rebel strengh makes sense to me too, however it should be an overkill aswell.
In short: I agree that money sinks are needed, but let's a) not do an overkill by causing money sinks much greater than money gain sources, b) don't make already tedious early game even more tedious.

 

[adriankowaty]

Also, not directly related to the problem, but I think you need some sort of budget tab (like in Civ IV BtS for example) for the mantaince costs to work correctly. So you can see (for example):
- predicted income from domestic demand (in all cities counted jointly, rather than separately for each city)
- predicted income from culture/entertainment (see above)
- mantainance costs/wages summed up as predicted cost
- land tax I mentioned above if implemented
- administrative costs if implemented
- trade with Europe/Africa/Port Royal:
a) separately for purchases (including recruitment/purchase ships) done this turn (cost)
b) and separately for sales of goods (income)
- other expenditures and incomes (events, priviliges, anything not related to main sources of income and cost, sumed up without need to split)
- balance summary of all above.
This would allow player to oversee his spending of funds and properly manage his economy so he doesn't end up with bankroupcy. The current model of pop ups via "events" tab is, imho, hard to keep check of things and would not support player in case if the main problem, ie money bonanza, is mitigated by enstablishment of persistent costs/money sinks.

 

[Unknown Enemy]

Hi there,
I really like the job you've done with this mod, so I hope to contribute to your work.

I really don't think it is the domestic market causing too much wealth.

The domestic market does its job perfectly because it is limited by being demand based. It is the exports due to unrestricted productivity that causes the runaway wealth. It is a fact that you can create a lot of wealth, but you can spend it on military and win the game sooner. It is the purpose of the end game after all.

I think this needs to be adressed and I would even consider it game breaking.
Domestic markets are way out of line imho. In my latest game, I only have 6 productive cities, so there aren't that many goods around. My domestic markets are generating about 46000 gold per round. It started at about 16k when I realized that the gains of the markets are insane, especially in my capitol. I only used to juggle my own goods in the colony so far. When I started to import basically everything else from Europe, it completely exploded. If I just sold everything I produce in Europe, Africa or Port Royal, I would perhaps get 10k per turn.

As you can see the prices are ridiculously much higher in my own colonies then in europe etc.. The combination of having that many different goods, which increase happiness, which increases the value of the goods is simply too much. (I think rebellious feeling increases it even more. Is that right?)
I think there should be a cap for the domestic prices at about 1.5x the max selling price of the best of the three other markets. And even 1.5 might be much.

Furthermore some of the demands are really high, while others are really low. Coffee sells like crazy, while no one wants coats. (Is that climate based because I would understand if no one in the jungle wants coats.)

It's even worse that the prices for the goods in Europe are extremely low, even if I never sold anything of the sort. Producing furniture or beer (and many others) to sell in Europe would be completely irrelevant at a selling price of 6. Do the goods of the other European powers influence the market prices of the player? Many goods are basically useless. I don't see how I could overproduce these extremely low value goods for too much wealth. (see quote)

Another part of a solution could be that goods that come exclusively from the new world can not be bought in Europe/other markets or are much, much more expensive to buy then to sell. That you can buy everything in Port Royal seems strange, too.

 

[OzzyKP]

I strongly agree that the domestic market is broken and a big part of the "too much money" problem. Prices are entirely unbalanced. Prices in Europe are too sensitive and decrease too fast, while domestic prices increase too much.

Thinking realistically, it doesn't make sense for the European prices to be so sensitive. The population in Europe was massively larger than in the colonies during the time frame of this game, so the idea that you've just permanently over saturated Europe with your exports of coats doesn't make much sense. Colonies were massive money makers for Europe because their goods were in such demand. Sugar, tobacco, furs, etc were big business. In every game by the time I've built up my infrastructure enough to really ramp up my exports, Europe has lost interest in any of my goods. That doesn't make sense and isn't fun or good game design. So, of course, I turn to the domestic market instead.

Another broader issue with the economic system of the game (which is probably besides the point for this thread), is that the whole mercantilism system was set up for the colonies to produce the raw goods so that the mother country could use them to create finished goods and make more money. The mother country imposed restrictions on the colonies to prevent them from manufacturing their own finished goods so they would buy them from Europe. This is entirely unmodeled in the game. The price of raw goods is paltry compared to finished goods, so the whole economic system is turned on its head where it is profitable to buy raw resources in Europe and then manufacture finished goods in the colonies for your own citizens to consume. Exactly backwards.

The combination of the high taxes, the domestic market and the oversensitive European prices work together to completely change the tenor of the game. Trading with the home country becomes an unprofitable activity by the mid/late game. Now you become self-sufficient and are only going overseas to buy people/troops. I sent lots of empty ships to Europe just to pick up more people. This breaks the core mechanic of the game and is rather unfun.

I like this idea. Right now it makes little sense, that not only do you avoid taxes and transport when exporting, you also often gain a better price on the domestic market.

Domestic market is necessary to secure happiness and growing large settlements. But it kicks in at the same time, that the player is able to export massive loads of goods to Europe = snowballing. Domestic market with low prices could acts as an indirect salary/upkeep to specially expert/upper class citizens. Adding real dilemmas for the player: Export for profit and keep your population unhappy. Or make the welfare of your citizens the prime goal. Ignore happiness and have slaves export cash crops. Or industrialize by catering to highly skilled craftsmen.

This is a good solution. It creates an interesting choice where you have to choose between keeping your citizens happy vs. making money by selling overseas.

Also, while it won't make a huge difference for the problem overall, I think passive income should be stripped away from the theater chain of buildings. It is really just an after thought for players, not a fun decision they make. Just extra money for no reason. These buildings should just be built for happiness, you don't need to earn money off them too.

 

[OzzyKP]

Such concepts may e.g. be:

Upkeep and Taxes (I am currently working on a new detail game concept, which I will post after Release 4.0)
Logistics and Supply (I am currently refining the existing concept a bit, because I had some new interesting ideas)
New Growth Mechanism (Which is actually one of the most popular concepts in quite a while and easy to implement)
City Workers also requiring Equipment (I know it is unpopular currently, but I still think it would make the mod better)
Connection and Distance to Capitol / Regional Governments (It is already accepted but currently not top priority)
More Diplomacy Options that require to invest Money (e.g. buying Land from Natives instead of just having the stronger Culture)
Potentially acquiring "Privileges" from the King (e.g. having to pay the King to be allowed to settle Colonies or acquire Privateers)
Social Progress System (aka Techs) (requiring to first unlock some of the Options to make more cash, also taking some time)
Political Crisis and Diseases (small conflicts in your colonies that will bind some attention and may require gold to be solved)
Loyalty to the Motherland (to balanced "Liberty Bells" and thus make a declaration of Independence a bit more challenging)

As for these ideas, my thoughts:
Upkeep and Taxes - Depending on details, this sounds good.
Logistics and Supply - I'm not in favor of this. This ramps up the complexity for little advantage. I'd prefer a system like the Pilgrim Trauma, Stress & Disorder mod where troops need food to eat.
New Growth Mechanism - I support this.
City Workers also requiring Equipment - I don't support this. I already spend way too much time moving goods around, this would just be frustrating and make the game less fun.
Connection and Distance to Capitol / Regional Governments - Meh. I'm not opposed, but it doesn't seem like it'll make much of a difference.
More Diplomacy Options that require to invest Money - I strongly support having to pay money to buy more land from natives instead of just gobbling it up with culture. Not only does this provide a way for you to use your money and slow down expansion, it also gives players an option to preserve native land and keep strong native allies nearby. It'd be nice to have this be a pioneer action so you could select specific tiles to expand to. Maybe just get rid of culture altogether?
Potentially acquiring "Privileges" from the King - I like this.
Social Progress System (aka Techs) - Maybe. I'd like it if the techs were more like civics. You could develop your society/economy in a certain direction (to the exclusion of other paths). Not just add another multiplier to your snowball. I'll add more thoughts to the thread.
Political Crisis and Diseases - Sure.
Loyalty to the Motherland - I like this a lot.

 

[Brosso B.]

I think this needs to be adressed and I would even consider it game breaking.
Domestic markets are way out of line imho. In my latest game, I only have 6 productive cities, so there aren't that many goods around. My domestic markets are generating about 46000 gold per round. It started at about 16k when I realized that the gains of the markets are insane, especially in my capitol. I only used to juggle my own goods in the colony so far. When I started to import basically everything else from Europe, it completely exploded. If I just sold everything I produce in Europe, Africa or Port Royal, I would perhaps get 10k per turn.

Firstly, that city screen you posted fills me with such dread.

What you describe does sound very broken. However, the "too much money" issue has been around for a very long time.

Really, I think the root issue is the lack of reason to make money, or it lacking significant outflows.

It's like the Underpants gnomes:
1 Steal underpants
2 ????
3 Profit!

Except swap 2 and 3. What exactly is making profit in aid of? If you had necessary expenditures then at least the game could revolve around keeping the plates spinning, but I'm not sure there is even a real gameplay loop to be found currently, let alone one that is flawed. The natives don't put up much of a fight, and lots of people don't even play with other Europeans enabled. If they do, I think most people find them not much of a threat.
Your screenshot includes a demand for "everyday clothes", but what happens if the city doesn't get them? Nothing, really. They're just another interchangeable good for you to make pointless money out of. Maybe you could throw it away on unnecessary military, or buy an expert cigar roller to replace a non-expert. But was that replacement necessary? Does it make a tangible difference to your "success"? Not really. It's just an arbitrary frivolity.

Furthermore some of the demands are really high, while others are really low. Coffee sells like crazy, while no one wants coats. (Is that climate based because I would understand if no one in the jungle wants coats.)

Demand isn't equal for all social classes, however all social classes demand coffee and salt. Good luck having significant demand for wine, though.

It's even worse that the prices for the goods in Europe are extremely low, even if I never sold anything of the sort. Producing furniture or beer (and many others) to sell in Europe would be completely irrelevant at a selling price of 6. Do the goods of the other European powers influence the market prices of the player? Many goods are basically useless. I don't see how I could overproduce these extremely low value goods for too much wealth. (see quote)

Another part of a solution could be that goods that come exclusively from the new world can not be bought in Europe/other markets or are much, much more expensive to buy then to sell. That you can buy everything in Port Royal seems strange, too.

Frankly I think there should be more things that you need which you can only get from Europe. That would give you a nice gold sink to support more advanced cities, for example maybe you buy medicine from Europe to combat health penalties from huge pop and high-tier factories. Or your people are more demanding of the full suite of luxuries, so you either need to diversify massively, or sell your polar coats and furniture to import rum and cigars so your worker bees don't riot.

 

[OzzyKP]

Frankly I think there should be more things that you need which you can only get from Europe. That would give you a nice gold sink to support more advanced cities, for example maybe you buy medicine from Europe to combat health penalties from huge pop and high-tier factories. Or your people are more demanding of the full suite of luxuries, so you either need to diversify massively, or sell your polar coats and furniture to import rum and cigars so your worker bees don't riot.

Yes, definitely need more Europe only goods that are actually needed. I just started playing the PTSD mod, from what I've seen so far it seems to handle the domestic market well. It is more about keeping your population happy (a very hard thing to do!) and not about making limitless money.

 

[Guynemer]

what's the PTSD mod?

 

[OzzyKP]

what's the PTSD mod?

[MODMOD] PTSD v.2.5.x for We The People 4.1 - NEW: More or Less More or Less!

Pilgrim Trauma, Stress & Disorder (Submod for WeThePeople) Here is my limited edition of We the People, if anyone would like to try some slightly quirky limits, obstacles and other hardships. This is a learning by doing project, made in the new world with its lax standards of quality, by an...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[OzzyKP]

I’ve been playing it pretty obsessively lately and yea, it totally solves the domestic market too much money problem. It implements a lot of the ideas from this thread (plus triangle trade!).

Happiness is very hard to come by and fulfilling domestic needs is your biggest source of it. Domestic prices are much lower, so you lose money to provide your cities with goods. But if you don’t, they will revolt constantly. I have been spending a lot on bringing in goods from Europe/Africa.

There are other bugs and issues with the mod, but it has some really good balance changes.

I also have been experimenting with tweaking things myself. I just gave every player the Dutch market stability trait (and the Dutch a stronger version of it). That has helped a lot to keep the incentive to trade overseas.

 

[Brosso B.]

I'm gonna give PTSD a look. Even if there are 100+ redundant goods to cover the city screen, this might be an interesting enough mechanic to overlook it

What are some of the bugs and issues that you're aware of?

ED: It looks a bit messy, I'll stay away for the moment.

 

[OzzyKP]

I'm gonna give PTSD a look. Even if there are 100+ redundant goods to cover the city screen, this might be an interesting enough mechanic to overlook it

What are some of the bugs and issues that you're aware of?

ED: It looks a bit messy, I'll stay away for the moment.

Nothing too significant, it is essentially WTP with balance changes.

One bug is that after you reject a founding father the same FF will pop up every turn until you select it, you aren’t able to select any others.

Goody huts don’t give out any treasure chests. That’s not working as intended, but it doesn’t really mess up the game since it impacts everyone so it just results in less lucrative exploring (all the other goody hut rewards seem to be working fine).

I think that’s all I’ve noticed, he’s working on fixing them. Everything else is smooth.

 

[Ramstormp]

Nothing too significant, it is essentially WTP with balance changes.

One bug is that after you reject a founding father the same FF will pop up every turn until you select it, you aren’t able to select any others.

Goody huts don’t give out any treasure chests. That’s not working as intended, but it doesn’t really mess up the game since it impacts everyone so it just results in less lucrative exploring (all the other goody hut rewards seem to be working fine).

I think that’s all I’ve noticed, he’s working on fixing them. Everything else is smooth.

I posted a new version that fixed those issues.

But since I was trying to redo the things ruined by my ex-cat, the domestic market now got a less satisfying balance to it (I can't remember how I had set it up earlier). The domestic market gives something like 50% profit compared to Europe unless you have a heavy industry going on in a city, which drops the price for that city.

 

[OzzyKP]

I posted a new version that fixed those issues.

But since I was trying to redo the things ruined by my ex-cat, the domestic market now got a less satisfying balance to it (I can't remember how I had set it up earlier). The domestic market gives something like 50% profit compared to Europe unless you have a heavy industry going on in a city, which drops the price for that city.

Oh cool, I didn’t realize you posted a new version, thanks!