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District Discount Mechanism

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lily_Lancer, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Ellerby

    Ellerby Chieftain

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    Actually you just nailed it.

    Using the word FIRST changes everything.

    If you used it earlier and I just missed it then apologies.

    Again thanks for your help. You've been a champ.
     
  2. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Thanks. No problem. I'll edit my original post on page 2 because you are right, the word "first" is important.:king:
     
    Ellerby likes this.
  3. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    necroing this thread simply because it's the most useful thread on the entire forum

    seriously I can't believe I missed it originally. game changing information right here
     
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  4. Dexter25

    Dexter25 Chieftain

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    Could someone confirm/correct if my theoretical (from production effectiveness point of view) modelling is right?
    Assumptions:
    - I am playing for any nation that does not have any UD.
    - I have three cities.
    - I place district in all cities as soon as technology allows
    Steps
    0. I have not build any district yet
    1. I have researched writing. So I able to build Campus
    a=1, b=0, n=1
    b = a*(n-1) + 1
    so if I build my first campus and first district in my whole empire
    I will get no discount (0 < 1) and it will cost me 54 production.

    2. if I decide to build campuses in my 2-nd and 3-rd city.
    a=1, b=1, n=2
    No discount for me, since 1 < 2
    So I decide not to do it.

    3. I have researched trading. So I am able to build Commercial center
    a=2, b=1, n=1
    According to formula above, we can get -40% discount for our first Commercial Center,
    since 1 = 1

    4. As soon as we build my first Commercial Center.
    a=2, b=2, n=2
    I decide to build 2-nd Commercial Center.
    No discount, since 2 < 3

    5. As soon as we build my second Commercial Center.
    a=2, b=3, n=2
    I decide to build campuses in my 2-nd and 3-rd city simultaneously.
    since 3 = 3 I will get my -40% discount.

    Questions:
    - Is my algoritm correct?
    - Will I get discount for both 2-nd and 3-rd campus since I building them simultaneously (so both of them are 2-nd campus in my empire)
    - I have heard also that there is 20% discount to production for district that is most common worldwide (e.g. all other nations have build 2+ campuses, then it means that I get 20% discount for my first 2 campuses in my empire). Is this information true? If "yes" can it be combined with discount above?


     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    At point 3 you have discovered campus and commercial and have so far only built a campus.
    You really do need to look at lily’s Original post
    If a>b then no discount is applied... a=2, b=1
    @RealHuhn ’s formula can be confusing.

    A couple of points that cannot be stressed enough.
    It is not easy to avoid the government district and should you anyway? To make this strat work well you need to build 3 initial holy sites or campi, with religious settlements it has made it easier and revisiting this has made me realise it is a little more useable initially.
    Things will not update to give discount until a new tech/civic is researched and they s causes some confusion.
    You need a pop 4 city for your second district which is not always easy to get fast.
    In the meantime build 3 campi then tell me how many commercial you can get discounted if you build them one at a time with a discovery in between.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  6. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Honestly I cannot follow your line of thinking. It's like you are mixing my formula together with Lily's math and change the meaning of the variables. Nothing makes sense.
    Please take a look at my examples again and try them in game. In my formula, a and n are always known and they are then used to calculate b.

    Ok ok :lol:. I should really make a quick flipchart/matrix in photoshop or excel to show what the formula really does. With the matrix you can see exactly how many districts you need in your empire (b) in order to unlock the 1st, 2nd, 3rd (n'th) etc discount, at any point in the game (a).
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    There is nothing wrong with your formula, it’s just people want to be able to do things with a single formula rather than having 2 rules. I made an excel that did it for me, will hunt it down, someone may find it useful.
    It does compete well with fixing district costs by placement.

    Here is a discount tool for anyone that has excel
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  8. Dexter25

    Dexter25 Chieftain

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    Thank you - very handy while planning district production pipeline
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Glad it works for you.
    Just played a Germany game to T150, still think I prefer a good chop but some of the early placements can be good and later ones are just natural anyway. Still too restrictive to me unless I’m playing Gorgo or Japan where a fat encampment rush really helps. Triple holy sites do seem most efficient or triple campus into commercial but it is a lot of early district building and I prefer pseudo war to war or peace now which is safer and feels more realistic to me.
     
  10. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    I just opened your excel, but there seems to be an error. When i build 2 holy sites and research a second tech (gov plaza in my case) that brings districts to 2 and techs to 2 as well. Your sheet sais i won't get discount, but i do. (and the formula indicates i should, according to the formula E4 does not need to be bigger than E3, it needs to be equal or bigger than E3.
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Thanks for the validation! I have changed the spreadsheet in that post adding in the missed =
     
  12. PotatoMcWhiskey

    PotatoMcWhiskey Chieftain

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    I've read this thread a few times over the years and I can never follow whats going on because the concept hasn't been explained in plain English.

    Correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm simply translating the original post into english based on how it was written (i.e. pretty confusingly to me) so that my understanding can be corrected.

    Conditions:
    Rule 1
    If the number of completed specialty districts is greater than or equal to the number of unlocked districts, then you can get a discount.

    Rule 2
    If the number of unlocked specialty districts is greater than the number of completed specialty district - then no discount can be applied.

    Rule 3
    If the number of completed districts divided by the number of unlocked districts is greater than the number of districts you have placed for a particular type then the discount can be applied.


    Variables A (NumUnlockedSDistricts) and B (NumFinishedSDistricts) are only refreshed upon completion of a tech/civic.

    Variable C (NumPlacedSDistricts) is refreshed immediately. [I have no idea what this means or the implication of it]

    So example Scenarios:

    I have Campus, Holy Site and Government Plaza Unlocked.

    A = 3

    I have built and finished 3×Holy Site and 1×Goverment Plaza.

    B = 4

    C = 0

    A/B = 1.33... Since 1.33 > 0 I will get a discount on building a Campus?

    Once I place that district C = 1. Since 1.33 > 1 then I will be able to place another Campus at a discount?

    Then C = 2. Since 1.33 < 2 I will no longer get discounts on Campus?
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Correct. as long as the other rules fit.. so it is an AND set of rules.
    Once a district is finished, you need to complete a tech or civic to refresh the values so you can get another discount.
    But if you place a district it counts straight away to the discount mechanism... This means that you cannot place 7 campuses in your example at the end to get a discount on all 7 illegally. It checks on district placement. (let me know if unclear)
    Your scenario is all correct. It sounds great but when you play you get your head in discount mode and stop buildings techs you need because of it.It can work and if it suits your strategy then great but if you want to find iron early, that encampment will stop a lot of discounts (unless you do not research campus which does work for early war BTW... people recoil in horror over not building campus first but its just 'grand')

    There is a spreadsheet further up the post, download and try, its fun to play with the numbers and save you using a piece of paper.
    ... and nice deity OCC btw, you have become a better player of late if you are the streamer
     
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  14. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Quick spread sheet to show how I use my formula from page 2. Just print it and forget all the math.
    Count the number of districts you have unlocked (top green row) and then go down and look at the yellow numbers which tell you exactly how many districts you need in your empire to get 1,2,3 etc discounts per district type.
    Probably a bit confusing at first glance but it's easy to use in game. I hope the example explains everything.

    Spoiler :
    District Discount Chart 01.JPG
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  15. Timewarp

    Timewarp Chieftain

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    My first thoughts at attempting this in a real game.

    I am playing a game on Prince to test out the mechanics. It definitely works, and makes a difference. When I see a Campus that can be built in 21 turns and a Theatre in 13, then that is this district discount in action. I got quite a few districts at discounted prices, and it makes a noticeable difference.

    However, the price is quite high. To make this work, you want to not unlock the difference districts. So I did not go into Astrology. So no holy sites or harbors. That's ok, not too much lost there. But avoiding Encampment, preventing me from finding Iron, is a bit higher cost. And when you get enough culture, you cannot avoid unlocking theatre and entertainment districts. Also, to make this work, you have to complete a lot of districts, whch is expensive.

    At lower levels, this is fun, with nice powerful cities. At higher levels, it seems that it would only be ok if the plan is to stop at like 6-7 cities and grow tall. It is very not compatible with any sort of wideness. Making this discount work requires completing lots of districts, and as has been stated many many times on this forum, in the early game this is very incompatible with doing well on high levels.

    I tried this making Campus the district I complete a lot. This boosts Science quite a bit. Which also makes districts more expensive. I will try this using Holy sites as the go to district, going for an all religious win, and then an Encampments game. This really only requires like 3-4 of the go-to district, so making encampments in the first 3-4 cities might not be TOO bad.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  16. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    @Timewarp: Incompatible with doing well on high levels? Then you haven't mastered the mechanism yet. It works perfectly fine on Deity, even in wide strategies (or rather a mix of tall/wide). But other skills like city placement and infrastructure become much more important. You need good production in 1st ring, good builder and Liang/Magnus/internal trade routes micro management etc.
    If you need Bronze Working, just research it and build (or place) one discounted encampment immediately (or just build one without a discount if necessary, not the end of the world). After it's finished, you still get 2 discounts per district type very easily. Only the 3rd discount gets delayed a bit more the more district types you unlock (see my chart above).
    And there's more. You can also use Moksha and Reyna with their ability to purchase districts with faith/gold. Those abilities can easily unlock the next round of discounts in one click in mid game. Moksha's ability is more cost efficient by the way. You don't have to use those governors though. Magnus and Liang can be enough. Skip Pingala in early game unless you want to go for Oracle/theatre/great people spam.

    You should play a few more games and try to get as many discounts as possible to get a feel for optimal pacing, tech paths etc. But after that don't be a slave to the mechanic in every situation. It's just another tool in your tool box but certainly a very powerful one, especially for peaceful victories on Deity (my prefered way of winning).
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  17. Timewarp

    Timewarp Chieftain

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    This is very very good news. I find the play style fun. I haven't mastered the mechanism yet? NO KIDDING :) :) :) I just started my first couple of kind of awkward but mostly successful attempts. Note - I did not finish out the games. On the other hand I was so far ahead of the rest that I think I'm ready to do the next round of practicing on King. This got me off to a better start than I am used to.

    I am happy to hear that it can work all the way up to Deity. I got my work cut out for me :) I'm really looking forward to it. And... I suspect it will take more than just a FEW more games to get all the way up to Deity. I'll be quite happy if I can consistently win on Emperor with it - at which point of course I'll tweak my game and work on the next level after that :)

    Thanks for your tips about the governors. And, also ... your chart rocks. It helps a lot.
     
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  18. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Yes, timewarp, i am sure realhuhn and victoria are also experienced deity player. Basically this whole thread exists from a deity perspective.

    It seems to me everyone is overlooking some things here because to me it looks like pure profit, not something that comes at any significant cost. Sure i have delayed bronze working in the past, but i also know i could get it if i really thought it was that important. (as long as my neighbours are friendly enough, i know i can and will befriend them soon enough and not need any military at all, so the iron is only needed to sell to your neighbours, which valueing at like 10gpt, is indeed quite significant.)
    -First of all, the key is to build many cities asap so that you have enough district spots. This is not a cost, this is and always has been the very best focus for early games.
    -Second, you dont have to stay ahead of the race for districts all the time, it is ok to catch up later.
    -Third, you don't have to place only discounted districts. It is perfectly ok to unlock bronze working and theatre squares without building any of those, and simply adding a 3th and 4th (full price) campus instead. You also don't have to finish it right away, you can still preplace them right upon founding or growing to 4 and finish them later. You just don't want to place non-discounted districts that could still get the discount later.

    And there is one more thing that i like in this whole picture: Lumber mills got improved.
    In early game, and construction became a very important early tech. Most cities will have 3-4 forests to work, so that will be a massive production boost there. And the good thing is, there are no districts on the way to construction. Another good thing is that half of the path towards construction is also needed to get to apprenticeship, which is the other main target in early game research. So regardless if you want to focus on apprenticeship first or construction, you have archery and horseback riding to give you time to build campusses first.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  19. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    @Timewarp Thank you! I'm sure you'll get to Deity eventually ;)
    @WackenOpenAir Good post! You already understand a lot about how to use the discounts! Getting to Lumber Mills early is a good way to delay a few district techs, definitely!

    I want to add one more screenshot from a very interesting game!
    Spoiler :
    20190913152600_1.jpg

    This is on turn 122 Deity, standard speed/map size (no wars) as Indonesia. As you can see I've unlocked all districts except for the water park and the aerodrome (so 9 unlocked district types). I've started with Religious Settlement and 3 early Holy Sites to kick things off. After that I've build 2 districts of each type, all of them were discounted because two discounts are very easy to get. Now I have 11 cities and 19 districts in total.

    I've added a blue circle to my chart to show where we are right now:
    Spoiler :
    District Discount Chart 02.jpg

    9 districts unlocked, 19 districts finished. That means the 3rd discount per district is available (first screenshot). The campus isn't discounted in this city because I've already placed a 3rd campus elsewhere.

    Also next round I get my 8th governor promotion and unlock Moksha's ability to purchase districts with faith. So what I can do from here is pick one district (for example the theatre square and win a cultural victory) and buy it with faith in every city, no discount required. This theatre spam will unlock the 4th discount per district quite soon (I need 28 districts in total for the 4th discount, see chart, which is reached fast because I have a full round of discounted districts ready).

    In conclusion, this blue circle in my chart is a very interesting sweet spot if you don't want to delay techs like Bronze Working etc. For this strategy, you need a minimum number of 8 cities (7*2 discounted districts + government plaza + 4 Holy Sites = 19).

    I've unlocked districts in the following order: Holy Site -> Campus -> Government Plaza -> Commercial Hub -> Theatre Square -> Bronze Working -> Entertainment Complex -> Harbor -> Industrial Zone
    Why? Because two early discounted theatre squares are better than an early entertainment complex (unless you want to build the Collosseum I guess). Commercial Hubs are on a much more important tech path than Harbors. So I'd rather delay Harbors a little longer. I've built the harbors and encampments at the same time with the improved +30% policy which boosts both districts now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
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  20. Timewarp

    Timewarp Chieftain

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    Thank you both very much for your replies. The screen shot was very helpful for me, and gave me lots of things to digest and think about. One question about your screen shot: You have the 30% discount card for Harbors and for Encampments. Since regular discounted districts go for 8 (60% of 14), shouldn't Encampments and Harbors go for 6 (70% of 8)?

    I've already read both previous posts twice, the second time slowly. I'll be rereading both (and reviewing the two screen shots you provided) to help me have achievable goals and mostly reach them.

    On a side note, I started a deity game with Australia, my first time trying out John Curtain. I went for 3 campuses and a government plaza, and am starting commercial buildings before theaters and entertainment complexes are unlocked. This is by far the best game of deity I have ever had, having 3 solid cities, 2 more ready to go, and in second place in science not too far from first. I have never done anywhere near to this well before. I still have a long way to go, and a lot more obstacles to overcome, but this is definite improvement. Thank you!
     

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