DnD Alignments ModMod

Sifaus

Adramelech
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
259
Hi,

I realize old Alignments are so ineffective and i want to add some Alignments. More Alignments means more different situations. And i think it will add replayability to FfH2. I don't know Python but i'm trying to change main codes.

Alignments:
Good
Lawfull Good
Chaotic Good


Neutral
Lawfull Neutral
Chaotic Neutral


Evil
Lawfull Evil
Chaotic Evil


BUGS:
  • Alignments not viewing on Civics, Techs ect.
  • Alignment attitudes isn't viewing on Diplomacy Screen.


Release:
NONE (yet)



Spoiler ChangeLog :


Spoiler Leaders :
Code:
No Minor Civ alignment changes exept Infernals.

	Amurites
Valledia the Even     Neutral
Dain the Caswallawn   Neutral
-Tya                  Neutral

	Balseraph
Keelyn                Chaotic Evil
Perpentach            Chaotic Evil
-Weevil               Evil
-Furia                Evil
-Malisandre           Evil

	Bannor
Sabathiel             Chaotic Good
Capria                Good
Decius                Neutral
-Tethira              Lawfull Good

	Calabim
Alexis	 	      Chaotic Evil
Flauros		      Evil
-Mahon                Evil

	Clan of Embers
Jonas Endain          Lawfull Evil
Shelba                Lawfull Evil
-Hafgan               Evil

	Doviello
Charadon              Chaotic Evil
Mahala                Chaotic Evil
-Duin                 Evil

	Elohim
Ethne The White       Good
Einion Logos          Lawfull Good
-Thessalonica         Good

	Grigori
Cassiel               Lawfull Neutral
-Misiter Koun         Lawfull Neutral

	Hippus
Tasunke               Chaotic Neutral
Rhoanna               Neutral
-Ostanes              Neutral
-Uldanor              Neutral

	Illians
Auric Ulvin           Chaotic Evil
-Braeden              Evil
-Dummanios            Evil
-Riuros               Evil
-Anagantios           Evil

	Infernal
Hyborem               Chaotic Evil
-Judecca	      Chaotic Evil
-Sallos	              Chaotic Evil
-Ouzza                Chaotic Evil
-Meresin              Chaotic Evil
-Statius              Chaotic Evil
-Lethe

	Khazad
Arturus Thorne        Lawfull Neutral
Khandros Fir          Chaotic Neutral

	Kuriotates
Cardith Lorda         Good

	Lanun
Falamar               Chaotic Neutral
Hannah the Irin       Chaotic Neutral

	Ljosalfar
Amelenchier           Lawfull Neutral
Arendel Phaedra       Good
Thessa                Neutral

	Luchuirp
Garrim Gyr            Lawfull Good
Beeri Bawl            Good

	Malakim
Varn Gosam            Lawfull Good
-Kane                 Lawfull Neutral

	Mercurians
Basium                Chaotic Good

	Sheaim
Tebryn Arbandi        Chaotic Evil
Os-Gabella            Evil
-Averax               Evil
-Gosea 		      Evil
-Malchavic            Evil


	Sidar
Sandalphon            Neutral
Shekinah              Neutral

	Svalftar
Faeryl Viconia        Evil
-Rivanna              Evil
-Volanna              Evil
Spoiler Alignment Attitudes :
Code:
good                good                5
good                lawfull good        3
good                chaotic good        1

good                neutral             0
good                lawfull neutral     1
good                chaotic neutral    -1

good                evil               -6
good                lawfull evil       -5
good                chaotic evil       -10

lawfull good        good                2
lawfull good        lawfull good        4
lawfull good        chaotic good        1

lawfull good        neutral            -1
lawfull good        lawfull neutral     2
lawfull good        chaotic neutral    -2

lawfull good        evil               -8
lawfull good        lawfull evil       -3
lawfull good        chaotic evil       -10

chaotic good        good                2
chaotic good        lawfull good        2
chaotic good        chaotic good        4

chaotic good        neutral             0
chaotic good        lawfull neutral    -1
chaotic good        chaotic neutral     1

chaotic good        evil               -8
chaotic good        lawfull evil       -8
chaotic good        chaotic evil       -10



neutral             good                2
neutral             lawfull good        0
neutral             chaotic good       -1

neutral             neutral             4
neutral             lawfull neutral     1
neutral             chaotic neutral     1

neutral             evil                2
neutral             lawfull evil        0
neutral             chaotic evil       -1

lawfull neutral     good                1
lawfull neutral     lawfull good        2
lawfull neutral     chaotic good       -3

lawfull neutral     neutral             2
lawfull neutral     lawfull neutral     5
lawfull neutral     chaotic neutral     0

lawfull neutral     evil                1
lawfull neutral     lawfull evil        2 
lawfull neutral     chaotic evil       -3

chaotic neutral     good                0
chaotic neutral     lawfull good       -1
chaotic neutral     chaotic good        1

chaotic neutral     neutral             3
chaotic neutral     lawfull neutral     0
chaotic neutral     chaotic neutral     4

chaotic neutral     evil                0
chaotic neutral     lawfull evil       -1
chaotic neutral     chaotic evil        1



evil                good               -6
evil                lawfull good       -4
evil                chaotic good       -8

evil                neutral             0
evil                lawfull neutral     1
evil                chaotic neutral    -1

evil                evil                5
evil                lawfull evil        3
evil                chaotic evil        1

lawfull evil        good               -8
lawfull evil        lawfull good       -3
lawfull evil        chaotic good       -10

lawfull evil        neutral            -1
lawfull evil        lawfull neutral     2
lawfull evil        chaotic neutral    -2

lawfull evil        evil                2
lawfull evil        lawfull evil        4
lawfull evil        chaotic evil        1

chaotic evil        good               -8
chaotic evil        lawfull good       -8
chaotic evil        chaotic good       -10

chaotic evil        evil                2
chaotic evil        lawfull evil        2
chaotic evil        chaotic evil        4

chaotic evil        neutral             0
chaotic evil        lawfull neutral    -1
chaotic evil        chaotic neutral     1


Spoiler Religion Changes :
Code:
Fellowship of Elves
	-Lawfull Neutral.
	-Converts Chaotic Evil/Good to Lawful Evil/Lawful Good.

Order
	-Chaotic Good.
	-Converts all Evil and Neutral Alignments to Lawful Good.

Octopus Overlords
	-Evil
	-Converts all Good Alingments to Neutral.

Runes of Kilmorph
	-Lawfull Good.
	-Converts all Evil and Chaotic Neutral to Lawfull Neutral.

Ashen Veil
	-Chaotic Evil.
	-Converts all Good and Neutral Alingmenst to Evil.

Empyrean
	-Lawfull Good.
	-Converts all Evil and Chaotic Neutral to Lawfull Neutral.

Council of Esus
	-Evil.
	-Converts all Good, Neutral and Lawfull Neutral to Chaotic Neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
 
Very interesting :)

I guess that all the Balseraphs should be Chaotic X but not necesarily evil. I don't see Sabathiel as Chaotic Good either; more as Lawful Good. I don't think Einion is much Lawful Good though. More like Ethne, Neutral Good.

Anyway, I never thought of doing that, although it was an obvious modmod to make. I don't know how to mod the alignments (never looked at them) but I guess it's not that hard. The main issue is that the whole mod is made around the three basic alignments so you'll either have trouble incorporating the nine dnd ones or you'll have to push this modmod way far to add features for all of the nine :)
 
Have you thought of making this a 2D broader alignments, rather than just having 9 categories?



How the hell did you come to the conclusion that the Archangel of Law and the religion devoted to the God of Law should be Chaotic? That makes no sense whatsoever. The Order should make anyone Lawful, and not necessarily change things in terms of good and evil at all. (Actually, the fanaticism of this religion make a neutral stance on the good-evil axis seem impossible. It might be interesting if it would push you towards either good or evil. ) (I just noticed that even tough you claim The Order is Chaotic Good, you still have it making players Lawful good. I'll assume part of that is a typo.)


OO is definitely the most chaotic religion, and should make anyone who uses it chaotic. It has some really dark aspects, but some OO cults really aren't that evil and there are plenty of good people follow such superstitions. In two dimensional alignment scheme, I'm not sure it should even effect good vs evil.


The Fellowship of the leaves doesn't strike me as Lawful at all. True Neutral fits best. .

The Ashen Veil really isn't that Chaotic. It is definitely true evil, and should not effect the lawful-evil axis.

The Empyrean seems slightly on the side of lawful, but less than either The Order or Runes of Kilmorph. I prefer to think it is True Good, and should not effect the lawful-chaotic axis.


The Runes of Kilmorph seem lawful good, but not nearly as Lawful as The Order or as Good as The Empyrean. I think it is more Lawful than Good, and could see it as Lawful Neutral pretty easily.


So, my D&D religion scheme:
Spoiler :


Fellowship of Elves
-True Neutral.
-No effect on alignment (or maybe, in broader alignments, moves everyone slowly towards true neutral)

Order
-Lawful Good.
-Converts all Alignments to Lawful, leaving good/evil unchanged (or maybe changing evil to neutral, or making neutral turn good but letting evil stay evil, or making everything that effects broader alignment have a bigger effect)

Octopus Overlords
-Chaotic Evil
-Converts all Alignments to Chaotic, leaving good/evil unchanged (or maybe also changing good to neutral)

Runes of Kilmorph
-Lawfull Good.
-Converts all Evil or Chaotic Alignments to Neutral (in their respective axes)

Ashen Veil
-True Evil.
-Converts all Alignment to Evil, leaving lawful/chaotic unchanged.

Empyrean
-True Good.
-Converts all alignments to Good, leaving lawful/chaotic unchanged.

Council of Esus
-Chaotic (or True?) Evil.
-Converts all Good and Lawful to neutral on their respective axes.

In the scenarios The Order is usually pit vs OO and Empyrean vs AV, which makes more sense in this system where one pair is extreme law vs chaos and the other good vs evil.



Basium (who you did not have in your list) seems the most clearly Chaotic Good. He despises the Compact, and Sabathiel says (or at least Capria says that he says) Basium possesses no mortal virtues and is not to be trusted.


Falamar is definitely on the good side of neutral, and Hannah on the evil, although neither is necesarily far enough from neutral to really be called good or evil. Falamar reminds me a bit of Elon from Order of the Stick (I imagine he has a lot of level in the dashing swordsman prestige class), and so should perhaps be Chaotic Good instead of Neutral. Hannah has very chaotic mood swings, but she also keeps her fleets strictly following orders out of fear, so I could see her possibly being lawful but probably chaotic.



The Winter Court has traditionally been associated most with mischief (originally just harmless pranks, before Sucellus died), and so seem pretty clearly Chaotic.

The Balseraphs are clearly all Chaotic, but they don't seem all that evil. Their leaders should be split between evil and neutral.


I tend to think that Einion Logos would be better as True Good and Ethne as either Chaotic or Lawful Good. While Ethne openly defies her people's tradition and Einion clings to it, these traditions are ones of moderation, or not going out to impose one's will on others.
 
I'm unsure if about a law / chaos axis, though it would provide another source of diplo-bonus and penalties. In addition, do you have plans for alignments to have in-game effects, aside from their diplomatic effect. For instance, Lawful Empires might be more efficient so could have reduced maintainance and corruption, but might suffer a penalty in some other area, whereas Chaotic Empires suffer in maintainance terms, but might produce more GPPs due to a richer tapestry of life.
 
Throwing an idea out there, would the chaotic/lawful axis be tied into chaos and law mana in any way? It seems like it should affect it somehow.

In addition to the things MagisterCultuum posted, I'll also add that the Calabim should probably be lawful evil (I'm sure we discussed this before somewhere...) and the Orcs should definitely be chaotic.
 
Isn't the Tower of Complacency an OO innovation? I would classify OO as lawful evil rather than chaotic, as the mind control aspect seems to suggest a craving for order, however evil or forced it may be.

That, and I believe AV is chaotic evil. They are trying to bring destruction to the whole creation and they are doing that through chaos (AC increases manifest themselves in the form of chaotic (i.e. peace-disturbing) events).

Esus can then be dubbed Neutral Evil IMO, just for variety. (D&D used to call the neutral spheres Neutral Good & Neutral Evil, did they change those to True Good and True Evil?)

As for the Balseraph leaders, Perpentach is clearly Chaotic Neutral (since this alignment is traditionally tied to insanity) and Keelyn can best be described as a Neutral Evil (True Evil) character IMO.
 
The Tower of Complacency is OO and OO doesn't seem to care much for personal liberty, but they seem to think that anyone with the power should be free to oppress other. OO is very anarchistic, but it is like the Doviello kind of anarchy, where everyone is seeking to be a despot over everyone else. They are not devoted to any one god, but to countless divinities who all despise one another. Cultists seem to randomly decide which overlord's orders should be heeded and which defied, and change this often because serving any one too long would anger the others. OO practices vary greatly between cults, enough that the Luonnotar sent to study them can find no real patterns in their behavior. One of the few constants is that anyone who receives genuine visions from the overlords is quickly driven completely insane.


AV may want to destroy the world, but they are quite civilized about it. Its followers tend to be very scholarly, and most don't really care about destroying the world but are merely wiling to aid that goal in exchange for power. They are all about making demonic pacts--dark oaths and agreements which they expect the demons to uphold. Mortals often try to back out of the pacts when they realize just how great the cost was, but the demons enforce them and severely punish anyone who tries to cheat them. On the other hand, Agares has no hierarchy among his demons, as he prefers for them to compete for his affections (although outright warring against each other like Camulos's do).



Perpentach seems to be Extreme Chaotic Neutral now, but I get the impression that he may have been Lawful Evil before Kylorin unleashed the thousands of minds within his own. He still has a few lawful aspects, like a compulsion to always stay true to his word. (I suspect that Kylorin cast a powerful Sun or Law spell on him back during their final battle, which is still in effect and makes it impossible for him to lie or break any oath. He is however naturally very dishonest, and creative enough to always defy the spirit of his agreements while keeping them to the letter.)

Keelyn still seems Chaotic to me.







I've never actually played any version of D&D. I've taken 2 D&D alignment facebook quizzes, the first which used Neutral for both axes (and said I was Lawful Good) and the second which used Neutral only for the good-evil axis and true for the Lawful-Good one (and said I was True Good). I liked the second quiz better (I was expecting at least a slight chaotic tendency, as I generally despise tradition. I do tend to be too honest for my own good though, so I guess being neutral on the law-chaos axis is best), and find its terminology less confusing.
 
This looks really nice, could I incorporate it in my mod when you've released it?
 
You made Sabathiel and the Order chaotic? And you made the Calabim lean toward chaotic as well? Cassiel is the archangel of balance, and the fellowship of leaves is about as purely neutral as it gets... the list goes on.

Look at the palaces of the various civilizations. Ones that get law and chaos mana might be a good place to start with corrections.
 
A good start, but I'd much rather have a graduated system similar to Galactic Civilizations, KOTOR, or NWN.

Good/Evil and Law/Chaos would each have their own axis, ranging from -50 (chaos/evil) to +50 (law/good). Then things like quests, religion, buildings, war declarations, and tons of other things can provide modifiers to this to give you an overall value. State religion of Order might give a +25 to the law/chaos axis, while owning Chaos mana may give a -10 to it. Razing a city would give you a -(pop/5) to the good/evil side, -(overall crime rate)/10 to law/chaos, etc etc etc.

Good/Lawful would be +26 or higher
Evil/chaotic would be -26 or lower

Each on their respective axis of course. This provide a pretty sizable neutral range which seems to be fitting given the fluctuations people go through over time, while still allowing truly extreme cases to remain that way even with the occasional razed city or saved puppy. It also avoids the radical change the current system presents when adopting certain religions. I'm sorry, but a civ who has razed dozens of cities, enslaves millions of people, openly uses death mana, etc isn't going to magically become neutral when the leader decides a new state religion is taking over. You could even tweak it so something like switching to Order doesn't even provide a one time boost to the Law/Chaos scale, instead it provides small incremental bonuses over time, such as +1 to Law/Chaos every 5 turns, representing the population slowly falling in line over time.
 
A good start, but I'd much rather have a graduated system similar to Galactic Civilizations, KOTOR, or NWN.

Good/Evil and Law/Chaos would each have their own axis, ranging from -50 (chaos/evil) to +50 (law/good). Then things like quests, religion, buildings, war declarations, and tons of other things can provide modifiers to this to give you an overall value. State religion of Order might give a +25 to the law/chaos axis, while owning Chaos mana may give a -10 to it. Razing a city would give you a -(pop/5) to the good/evil side, -(overall crime rate)/10 to law/chaos, etc etc etc.

Good/Lawful would be +26 or higher
Evil/chaotic would be -26 or lower

Each on their respective axis of course. This provide a pretty sizable neutral range which seems to be fitting given the fluctuations people go through over time, while still allowing truly extreme cases to remain that way even with the occasional razed city or saved puppy. It also avoids the radical change the current system presents when adopting certain religions. I'm sorry, but a civ who has razed dozens of cities, enslaves millions of people, openly uses death mana, etc isn't going to magically become neutral when the leader decides a new state religion is taking over. You could even tweak it so something like switching to Order doesn't even provide a one time boost to the Law/Chaos scale, instead it provides small incremental bonuses over time, such as +1 to Law/Chaos every 5 turns, representing the population slowly falling in line over time.

This is exactly what I meant by rewriting Broader Alignments. :p

Something I could possibly think about doing, but it would be quite a ways down the road....
 
Sabathiel is Lawful Good. Being the archangel of Law kind of dictates some sort of Lawful alignment. I'd call Perpentach Chaotic Evil, but give Keelyn the benefit of the doubt and grant her Chaotic Neutral (she doesn't fully understand morality, and she's quite dangerous, but lacking in actual malevolence). I'd also call Auric Lawful Evil. Give Falamar Chaotic Good; his actions in the scenarios fit that alignment quite well. MC's alignment scheme is the one you want. How in the name of all things holy did you end up calling the Order chaotic?
 
This is exactly what I meant by rewriting Broader Alignments. :p

Something I could possibly think about doing, but it would be quite a ways down the road....
Totally. I have written notes about how to rewrite it totally but I'm busy with LE right now so I won't go into it before a while.
 
... and I hope you flesh it out more.

I tried something like this with the very first incarnation of the Dungeon Adventure mod mod, but I did away with the FfH2 alignment system and intoduced two new civics instead.

One was a Lawful-Balanced-Chaotic spectrum called "Ethos."

The other was a Good-Neutral-Evil spectrum called "Morality."

By using civics instead o the hardwired FfH2 systems, it makes it easier for players to change alignment or have it changed, although there is still the customary period of anarchy after a change. Of course, perhaps it should not be as easy as that!

Oh, and about the D&D designations: I never cared for them much, because they can be misleading and simplistic.

Good vs. Evil is really about the extent to which a character or nation values the lives and well-being of others and respects their rights.

Lawful vs. Chaotic is more about adhering to societal rules vs. individualism. Chaotic aligned people aren't all random and insane -- the designation just means that they place a higher value on personal freedom than on "following the rules."

Anyway -- good luck!
 
Id actually say Perpentach is Chaotic Neutral while Keelyn is Chaotic Evil. Keeyln is so obsessed with demons, she wont have any time for the people ... meaning the demons will always get their way, and the people will live in fear and be abused.
 
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