Do you ever found a religion?

[bcaiko]

Folks -

If you're not going for a Religious Victory game, do you ever find it beneficial to found a Religion? If so, under what circumstance? Is it in a majority of your games?

In the vast majority of my games, I've hardly ever found Religion to be worthwhile. I think I've built one twice in my early games. The bonuses were lacklustre, the opportunity costs for building the religion were high, and I found the side game of constantly beating back AI religion mongerers to be tedious at best.

Then there's the problem of getting your Great Prophet before the AI cleans them out. On higher difficulties, this is near impossible. The AI always bee lines for Stonehenge. I've never seen any other wonder be the first built in any of my games. And, by the time you can get Holy Sites and religious buildings up and running - the AI has likely had theirs online for a while thanks to their derp bonuses. If you make such a heavy, early investment, and come out with NOTHING for your work - that's a HUGE opportunity loss. In Civ5, I could take my time on deciding to build a Religion and generally be okay. That is decidedly NOT the case in Civ6. You have to invest heavy and early, and even then you could be screwed.

I consider the high risk of building a Religion and the low return for doing so (plus the "reward" of awful micromanagement) to make Religion building almost never worth it. And I say this as someone who mostly plays as Japan - I get discounts on the Holy Site, and I still almost never bother with a Religion.

Do folks here disagree? Am I missing something? From the naysaying about Religion on the Polycast podcast, I get the feeling I'm in good company with the majority of players on this board.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't found one if I'm starting from scratch, but if my civ happens to have benefits towards it, like cheap Holy Sites, or if I happen to start right next to a Natural Wonder, then I will give it a shot. Good Faith generation can be good for a few Great People, or a few National Parks, but you're right; it's hard to justify the effort.

 

[unpossible251]

i've never gotten a religion on immortal, but emperor is worth a go. imo, it can turn a ragequit start into something thats maybe kind of worth a shot-ish. so , example, if theres not enough continuous flat land to warrant heavy farming, feed the world + gurwadas might work. theres an "if" and a "might" in that sentence.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Yes - I'll found a religion as a domination play mainly with Arabia, Poland, or India because they all have strong medieval unique units and religious themed bonuses. It's automatic for Arabia so no extra investment required there. I generally wouldn't try to found on Immortal+ but it's reliably doable on emperor. After this you can beeline for theocracy and churn out Mamluks, Varu, or Winged Hussar. I also usually pick the Crusade belief which gives you +10 combat strength when attacking cities with your religion which helps take down the tougher to capture well defended cities. You can easily take over your entire continent using this tactic and fairly quickly. I think this would work pretty well with Japan too but I've never tried with them.

You might consider trying the Rule with Faith mod. It adds some new governments and incorporates religious and cultural policy slots. It also makes religion a little easier to found since you can utilize some of the religious cards in the early game. It definitely makes religion a more important component in the game and it's a fun change of pace.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I tend to not, of course there are situations where it makes sense then I will go for it. Although I rarely find the costs (which are usually very high) to outweigh the benefits.

 

[Abraxis]

I'm also curious how many people who don't go for a religion still build holy sites.

 

[UWHabs]

I'm also curious how many people who don't go for a religion still build holy sites.

Rarely will I build holy sites if I'm not going religion. Every now and then, though, if I have a religion with good beliefs that have spread to me, I'll think about building some holy sites as my 3rd or 4th district in a city. And I rarely if ever try for a religion anymore, except the occasional game where I specifically play a religious game.

 

[bcaiko]

I'm also curious how many people who don't go for a religion still build holy sites.

I do. But not that many and not early on. 1) I get a discount on them late game. 2) While Religions aren't worthwhile, the faith for purchasing GP sure is.

 

[EgonSpengler]

At Emperor, I find that spending those important early turns trying to get a religion is the surest way to do poorly.

 

[kaspergm]

I always try for a religion. I guess I'm too much of a builder type not to. I know it's not necessarily optimal gameplay, but I really like having one.

 

[DanaLea]

I play at a much lower difficulty level but I always found a religion. Although the later game invading religions do annoy me to no end. But I like the ability to buy things with faith. Get the right beliefs, and the right city states, and faith is as useful as gold. So yeah, I build them and I cultivate them, even when I'm NOT going for religious victory (which is every game, I'm not a religion victory fan - I prefer science or culture)

 

[Mahatmajon]

I play emperor/immortal but rarely finish games (play ~150ish turns). I'm about 50:50 for going for a religion though when I go for one I almost never miss getting it. I find it worthwhile to get a religion and build holy sites in the first ~3-5 cities. That's usually enough faith to buy buildings/apostles in a timely manner. Depending on the beliefs chosen (and city states befriended) I tend to either use faith for buying buildings or for spamming missionaries to spread -- never both.

 

[Canadian Bluebeer]

I do it for the production. 1% per follower does add up.
If you get the CS where you can buy buildings with faith, that's really handy, as you can use gold for other stuff.
(great for rushing new cities)

I don't spread it to others, I like to let them come to me and kill them. (free missionary work)

 

[Arms Longfellow]

Religion is less powerful than it was in Civ 5, that's for sure. You can safely ignore religion in Civ 6. I only consider founding one on Deity if my civ gets bonuses to religion, because the opportunity cost is huge. I keep a close eye on the amount of founded religions and the Great Prophet points being generated by other civs, and I always assume that Arabia is in the game so it's not safe to bank on snagging the 5th religion. If it looks reasonable to get, I will immediately get two cities, chop out holy sites/shrines and pray it out. In my last game I actually failed as India and got beaten to the last religion and it really sucked. I could have settled 3 more cities if I didn't bother going for the religion, although I still managed to win a close science victory (I converted to Islam to please my Arabian neighbour who could have stomped me at one point so it wasn't a complete waste).

The nice thing about going for Religious Victory is you hardly need science at all. Mostly just military techs for self defense.

 

[CPWimmer]

It sounds like I have a similar approach to many others here. I don’t bother with religion in most of my games anymore. The primary exceptions are the few Religion Victory focused games I’ve played, or if the Civ has major Religious, Holy Site or Faith related abilities. I do NOT build Holy Sites in games unless I am trying for a religion.

As a reference point: My order of preference when it comes to victories is Science, Domination, Culture, Religion and I tend to play Emperor/Immortal. However in the last few games I’ve played I’ve also been trying out the alternate starting eras, mostly to pick up a few more achievements and see what the differences are.

 

[The Highwayman]

I only found a religion when I've acquired enough holy sites from taking what's rightfully mine and the math works in my favor. I might get one 10% of the time. I prefer Domination and Science victories with the occasional Culture victory sprinkled in here and there. Maybe I'll go all in on religion when the other victory conditions get boring.

 

[empresskiova]

I often go for a religion, though I seldom need to go hard for one. Since I play on Prince, I can usually get one of them. Some of the Religious Perks are really useful or helpful, and certain City-States also make a high faith pool effective.

 

[stormerne]

If you're not going for a Religious Victory game, do you ever find it beneficial to found a Religion? If so, under what circumstance? Is it in a majority of your games?

Here's (for me) the one reason you might want to build holy sites and found a religion, yet not still not attempt a religious victory: map size. Smaller map size tells me to go for a religion. Why?

Let's assume first that you're playing single player and want no part of the race for a religious victory. You've seen the waves of incoming AI religious units, from all sides, and yet you've seen that, in 95% of cases, the waves balance out and there's no overall AI winner in the religious race. Maybe you feel it's just too tiresome to compete with so little chance of winning - no fun - and in the 5% of games where there is a religious runaway, you're happy to wipe them out militarily.

You've got your pantheon - why would you not? - but are there any circumstances where you might want to try for a religion too? Yes. The fewer the number of opposing AI civs you have in your game, the more likely the waves of AI religious units are not going to balance out. On small maps if you're removing your neighbors to grow, you might also be removing the very thing that will stop you suffering a surprise religious defeat. Additionally, occupying captured cities rather than razing them is suddenly fraught with difficulty as you may be tipped into having a religion predominate in your lands.

But if you're playing with a small map and fewer AI opponents, you can play at least defensively. It doesn't cost much effort, unlike the effort you may need if you were going for a religious victory. Build holy site(s), get your prophet and religion, add a few faith buildings to keep the faith coming in, build a few missionaries to convert just your empire, build a few apostles to deal with the effects of other AI units, martyr one of the apostles to launch an inquisition, build inquisitors and station them in cities with holy sites and any religious choke points, and never ever bother to engage in religious combat.

And if you're playing with a small map and fewer AI opponents, your chances of getting a religion are higher anyway. The total number of religions available to be founded is determined by map size: just halve the default number of players (including you) for that map size and then add 1. Thus on a Standard map, 3 civs would miss out on getting religion (if they all tried), whereas on Tiny only 1 will.

 

[stinkubus]

I really only get them when I conquer enough Holy Sites early that it happens by accident. I agree with Spengler's remark that going for a religion seems like more of a handicap than anything else, but I've never tried the faith purchasing strat. There's always maps where it's very tempting too. Something like turn 3 discover natural wonder, turn 5 pop a relic from a hut. But every time I follow through and get the religion I'm disappointed. Crusade is the only belief I've found truly useful.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I like playing Russia, so yes. Zen meditation, pagodas, meeting house if I can't get pagodas, and whatever else who cares. Goddess of the hunt is kinda ok sometimes if I get furs and deer.