Do you like China?

1. Dann is not a Chinese citizen, he's only a Philippino working in China.
Yes but I am also Chinese by blood. Coming from a neutral stance there are some things that I can judge more objectively.
I'm a Chinese citizen, but highly despise this country, see my previous post and my self-introduction on cfcot wiki.
And you are not alone. But few are as outspoken as you. I congratulate you for that.
2. I don't support the democracy and independent movements in China. That's NOT because I sympathize with the government, or I'm a stupid supporter of Chinese nationalism. It's because they're going nowhere. With people hating each other, political modernization non-exist, any form of democracy would be doomed to be replaced with a Maoist, or fascist, or a combination of left and right totalitarianism. In my morality, I sympathize with people who bust the bubble of "China myth".
Indeed. :( Chinese people today are not yet ready for democracy.
See Dr. Sun Yat-Sen's struggle for the Republic of China and how it ended. Our country just doesn't deserve a Gandhi, or a Nelson Mandela.
Again, sadly true. :sad:
Side Note: I think it would be slightly better if the reformists (with students as the front) won in the Tiananmen Square incident.
Psst... the reformists are in charge today. They just can't be too obvious about it. So be quiet willya? ;)
However, it may never turned out that fine as in DDR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. We are far away from Europe or US..
Understatement of the year. A collapsing China in 1989 will make the USSR's collapse seem rosy in comparison.
3. My view of current China politics is one word, "Doom". There will never be another spring of political freedom in the coming decades. Here I've already saw enough political reactionary: the government propaganda, the controlled media, the awfully-screwed text books and education system, the unbelievable revival of orthodox traditional values (Cultural Revolution is the other extreme), disgusting ultra-nationalism and fascism, blatant racism and discrimination against rural area, popular approval of cruel treatment of those who are convicted.
I agree with your observation, but do not share your pessimism.
4. Yes, I think if China unified (which may never be), the capital should be Taipei.
:lol:

It's on an island. Ridiculously inefficient for ruling over a land empire. Either Nanjing or Shanghai would be a better choice.

Or why not build a new capital from scratch?
5. Also, when we have a better government, we should let Xinjiang, Tibet go independent, and Inner Mongolia united with Mongolia. Just like what happened in Czechoslovakia, but not what happened in Yugoslavia.
Er, I'm torn with this. Sure self-determination and all that but I also hate to see the big pink blob on the map shrink. :D
 
If China has a better government, there would be too many Han Chinese in Tibet and Xinjiang so the people there won't want independence. Moving the capital to Taipei will probably be a gesture of unification to the Taiwanese that don't want independence.
 
colontos, you're calling me an elitist but I can never be. "Elites" are chosen few here with strong background with good relationship with high rank officials, an ordinary sub-citizen like me can never be.
However, Mao is the biggest popularist, you wanna agree with him huh? Some demagogue is perfect to grab this country.

Psst... the reformists are in charge today. They just can't be too obvious about it. So be quiet willya?

You know that one hand can't clap. :lol:

FTW: I don't deny my blood, but I'll defy my blood.
 
I don't know if you're an elitist or not. What I'm saying is that the idea that some groups are "not ready for democracy" while other groups magically are is BS. Any group of people is ready to be given a voice in their own government.
 
Well, I agree on principle but...there're more dirty things in reality than in books.
What if people democratically choose a dictator?
What if people are enchanted by a new demagogue like Hitler, Pol Pot, or Mao, or Saddam Hussein, or Imam Harmeni (sp?)
I love the fundamental things found in modern civilizations, the one with constitution, law, balance of power, freedom of speech, and anything rosy. But Rome wasn't built in a day...Heck I defend my country! Or no I'm so stupid to be deceived by the "moderate" disguise of our dictatorship!

In fact, I guess an easy solution for me is to try my best to emigrate to another nation.
 
Pretty condescending/elitist, no? Chinese people are not ready to make choices?
Not elitist but the result of observation. At this point in time too many of her populace are either:
(1) So poor they're politically apathetic (this is NOT a fault of theirs). These people would vote for whoever can give them handouts during political campaigns. The result? Government office will become the exclusive domain of the rich, and corruption will become even more entrenched.
(2) Youth brainwashed by an obsolete educational system and limited in actual social experience. These people would easily vote into office the first glib-talking demagogue they see. Mao II easily. The result will most likely be war and ruination.
(3) Disillusioned mature people more concerned with bread and butter issues rather than politics. These will see no point in the political process and simply abstain from voting.

China needs decades more of slow economic growth and educational reform until it possesses a sufficiently large body of educated, informed and politically aware middle class that can avoid the above pitfalls. That's the time she will be ready for democracy.
It's working pretty well in Taiwan.
Working pretty well? What has democracy brought for Taiwan? Endless political scandals, brawls in the Legislative Yuan, a population polarized into opposing camps, development stalled due to political infighting... See my point?

The best development in Taiwan actually occured during the 1980s-90s under Chiang Jingkuo, when it was a firm but humane dictatorship. It all started going downhill after Lee Tenghui opened up the Pandora's box of political change.
 
Well, I agree on principle but...there're more dirty things in reality than in books.
What if people democratically choose a dictator?
What if people are enchanted by a new demagogue like Hitler, Pol Pot, or Mao, or Saddam Hussein, or Imam Harmeni (sp?)

Bad examples, since none of these folks were elected. If there is a democratic system in place, they will find it difficult to choose a dictator. Possible, but difficult.

(1) So poor they're politically apathetic (this is NOT a fault of theirs). These people would vote for whoever can give them handouts during political campaigns. The result? Government office will become the exclusive domain of the rich, and corruption will become even more entrenched.

Government is already the domain of the rich, everywhere. A democratic China cannot be more corrupt than China presently, simply because EVENTUALLY, leaders would be held accountable for their actions.

(2) Youth brainwashed by an obsolete educational system and limited in actual social experience. These people would easily vote into office the first glib-talking demagogue they see. Mao II easily. The result will most likely be war and ruination.

Mao was not a demogogue, nor was he elected. Why would democracy result in "war and ruination"? These statements need backing up; your logic seems to have a definite hole here.

(3) Disillusioned mature people more concerned with bread and butter issues rather than politics. These will see no point in the political process and simply abstain from voting.

If they abstain, no harm done. Many healthy democracies have low voter turnout.

China needs decades more of slow economic growth and educational reform until it possesses a sufficiently large body of educated, informed and politically aware middle class that can avoid the above pitfalls. That's the time she will be ready for democracy.

This is a myth. Folks of your stripe will never be satisfied. Democracy will create this political awareness by default. Once people figure out that their vote counts, many of them start paying attention.

By the way, do you honestly believe that, if China were to hold elections this year, that the Chinese people would elect a Communist? I don't.

Working pretty well? What has democracy brought for Taiwan? Endless political scandals, brawls in the Legislative Yuan, a population polarized into opposing camps, development stalled due to political infighting... See my point?

No, I don't, actually. Scandals, opposing camps, political infighting, gridlock... sounds like a healthy democracy to me. Sounds like America or Europe! As for brawls in the legislature, well, we see those in Japan and South Korea from time to time, but things are going fine there.

Let me ask you: would you rather live in Taiwan or in China?

The best development in Taiwan actually occured during the 1980s-90s under Chiang Jingkuo, when it was a firm but humane dictatorship. It all started going downhill after Lee Tenghui opened up the Pandora's box of political change.

I see that you are really fond of authoritarians. This is a classic Chinese/Confucian position: the "Pandora's box of political change." Ridiculous. There is no such thing as a humane dictatorship on the right or the left. Taiwan today is a functioning democracy. It has freedom of speech, of religion, etc. It is not engulfed in chaos or in "war and ruination." If China went democratic, it would be the best thing that could happen for the country.
 
Well, I certainly wouldn't vote for a hard-core nationalist, or a military power man, or any "redistribution of wealth" socialist.

Actually Taiwan is going fine, although political blunders increase. Politics are bound to be evil on face value, it's only that our government just cover their asses through undemocratic procedures and blatant lies.

I vote with my feet.
 
Government is already the domain of the rich, everywhere. A democratic China cannot be more corrupt than China presently, simply because EVENTUALLY, leaders would be held accountable for their actions.
So how come 20 years after ousting Marcos, Philippine politics is still corrupt? How come after nearly 200 years of independence, much of South American politics is still corrupt?

Healthy economics, or at the very least, better than average wealth and information level among a majority of constituents is a factor in a successful democracy. That is why democracy is such a roaring success in Europe and America.
Mao was not a demogogue, nor was he elected. Why would democracy result in "war and ruination"? These statements need backing up; your logic seems to have a definite hole here.
Hmm... my apologies for being ambiguous. I meant to say that if elections were held today in China, the local "angry youth" will most certainly elect one of their own as leader. And this fella will no doubt be a glib-talking demagogue who is hyper-nationalist and worships Mao but doesn't understand fully the historical background or the current geo-political situation. He would also pander to his bailiwick and get baited into a war that China cannot win. Hence "war and ruination".
This is a myth. Folks of your stripe will never be satisfied. Democracy will create this political awareness by default. Once people figure out that their vote counts, many of them start paying attention.
Let's hope so. Personally me and quite a few of my countrymen have gone from enthusiastic to utterly disgruntled with regards voting. For the past 20 years all of our elected presidents sat with the constant threat of being removed by impeachment, a military coup or a street mob. Seems there always was a dissatisfied faction who prefer to force their will over the rest of the people.
By the way, do you honestly believe that, if China were to hold elections this year, that the Chinese people would elect a Communist? I don't.
They have no sensible other choice. No other party has existed in China for the past half-century.
Assuming the rules were relaxed today:
*plarq sets up new political party in China.*
*plarq campaigns*
Chinese peasant: "Who you? Why should I believe what you say?"
*CCP campaigns*
Chinese peasant: "Er.. yeah. You at least I know." *votes CCP*
No, I don't, actually. Scandals, opposing camps, political infighting, gridlock... sounds like a healthy democracy to me. Sounds like America or Europe!
Personally I feel that those are the unwanted baggage that comes with democracy, and hope that a future democratic China can do without them.
As for brawls in the legislature, well, we see those in Japan and South Korea from time to time, but things are going fine there.
I dunno. Don't you find that kind of behavior degrading for people of their stature? What difference do they have with street thugs or macho-aggro teenagers then?
Let me ask you: would you rather live in Taiwan or in China?
Equally. I have an aunt in Taiwan. If I find a good-paying job there why not? :D
I see that you are really fond of authoritarians. This is a classic Chinese/Confucian position: the "Pandora's box of political change." Ridiculous. There is no such thing as a humane dictatorship on the right or the left. Taiwan today is a functioning democracy. It has freedom of speech, of religion, etc. It is not engulfed in chaos or in "war and ruination."
Perhaps. But we Chinese have already gone through too much hell in the past century or so, both from within and without. We cannot afford any more half-baked experiments. Democratization is the inevitable, ultimate goal. But the foundations better be damn good and prepared well in advance.
If China went democratic, it would be the best thing that could happen for the country.
I wholeheartedly agree. But not just yet. ;)
 
I think its true that some people are not prepared to democracy. Dont know much about political circumstances in China. But I also think that only expectations that system will change itself is bad. Question is in which part of progress China is.
 
The CCP is not the monolithic entity that the outside world views it to be. There are always several internal factions struggling for dominance. For now it would seem the sensible and pragmatic wing is on top. Hopefully (1) the conservatives and hardliners don't return to power; and (2) someday a truly reformist and libertarian wing will emerge and gain control.
 
Why did it need to be done? Why not let the students have their say?

THERE is the difference between authoritarianism and democracy. In a democratic society, you can stand on the street corner and preach authoritarianism, and nothing will happen to you.
Why not let everyone has their way? Because what they would bring is ruin and troubles. They were kindly asked to move out of the way, and that their grievances would be heard. Instead they insisted on being recalcitrant. China is not a democracy by the way, nor does claims to support democracy give legitimacy to riot.

Some people did, but Zhou was not one of them.
What? He was the premier of China, he tried to soften Maos policy, he is judged to be a fair leader of China, that he tolerated Maos indiscretion is because he does not want to die. Anyway i chose Zhou Enlai in response to a post which stated that there is no good communist.

Unfortunately, no one in the West knows if anyone was run over by tanks or not. What matters is that people were killed for expressing support for democracy. Do you approve of that?
Luckily i am not in the west, noone has substantiated or claimed with confidenc that anyone was run over by a tank, but we know that someone was not run over by a tank in China. Your claim sir that China ran over its students with tanks was a deliberate misintepretation at best.

Please provide evidence of the students having weapons. I have read quite a bit about Tiananmen, and have never heard such a thing. I think it is you and not I who have been influenced by propaganda.
I have relatives who lived through the aftermath, they claim and it is substantiated by official chinese records that several soldiers were killed either by gunshot wounds or molotov cocktails. Your claims of my judgement being influenced by propaganda is the one that is unsubstantiated. You are the one that is spreading misinformation.
 
Government is already the domain of the rich, everywhere. A democratic China cannot be more corrupt than China presently, simply because EVENTUALLY, leaders would be held accountable for their actions.

To reduce the corruption in China, they need more bureaucracy not democracy. In parts of China you'll need to pay bribes to get things done, in parts of India, you'll also need to pay bribes. In other parts of China, where there is a stronger bureaucratic system, you'll pay a fee, same with parts of India. Whatever you call it call, it's money out of your pocket. The bureaucracy just makes it legitimate and give you more assurance.

The people with some power will always be held accountable for their actions. But the people with the most power will never be held accountable. Reagan is still America's darling after the Iran Contra incident. Robert Gates who was also directly involved is currently the US Secretary of Defense. You can complain, but you can't punish them.
 
-government, yeah why not.
 
Do I like China? Yeah, you better like or prepare to DIE! :mwaha::mwaha:

Well, my opinion doesn't mean anything to anyone except me, so I say that I don't have an opinion!

Though now I like Chinese people more than before, Chinese player Gao Leilei signed for My( )Pa!
 
Luckily i am not in the west, noone has substantiated or claimed with confidenc that anyone was run over by a tank, but we know that someone was not run over by a tank in China. Your claim sir that China ran over its students with tanks was a deliberate misintepretation at best.

I have relatives who lived through the aftermath, they claim and it is substantiated by official chinese records that several soldiers were killed either by gunshot wounds or molotov cocktails. Your claims of my judgement being influenced by propaganda is the one that is unsubstantiated. You are the one that is spreading misinformation.
What has puzzled me is that if the students killed the soldiers in Tiananmen, why would the government block information about the incident? I think that people will trust their own country more than other countries so when the people in China read about the Western view of the incident, they will know it is fake. I think the Chinese government is spreading propaganda since they are blocking the Western view of the incident because they know that it is true so they don't want the people in China to know about it since they might rebel.
 
@civverguy: I 'll give my conspiracy style response for reference.

Simply put: about three factions involved in the Tiananmen Incident

1)Progressive/radical reformists, who were backing the students and their demands.
2)Conservative commies, who disliked Deng's reformation, and hoped the reformation slowing down.
3)Deng's faction, who're reformists but didn't want to push too much forward.

The Incident was a conflict between #1 and #3, which could be described as an internal conflict. However, when #1 was unstoppable (if you read People's Daily and other Commie press, you'll find them leaning towards #1), Deng had no choice but to lean to #2, and borrowed military (who're obviously from the #2).

So, after the oppression of #1, many of the #2 faction filled the vacuum of reformists in 1989-1991 era. It could be noticed that the wee bit revival of Mao glorification was in this short "traditional commie" festival.

Then, in the spring of 1992, Deng reinforced his stand on reformation after this great blunder, by visiting several cities in the south and expressed his political will that the reformation had to continue.

Now it's clear: the government doesn't want us to think about this unfortunate incident; it can't praise students or the conservative commies. The choice is shadowing the whole incident, just like the Whole Cultural Revolution, and they'd never mention it.--Both are great blunders of the party and the authority.

The whole meaning of propaganda trash is to (mis)lead the people, not teaching them to love the gov't. It's better for Chinese citizens to criticize the government and fall in the trap, than loving the government but blocking the reformation.
 
I flippin' love China. Great food, great beer, great people, so many things to see and do that you could spend your entire life with unlimited cash exploring the country and still not even see half of it, and great distances to travel to boot. Sufficiently developed to offer everything I could need.

Yet, I'm not there. :cry:
 
So how come 20 years after ousting Marcos, Philippine politics is still corrupt? How come after nearly 200 years of independence, much of South American politics is still corrupt?

The Philipines are less corrupt than they were under Marcos. That is not to say they don't still have problems. But it's getting better.

Healthy economics, or at the very least, better than average wealth and information level among a majority of constituents is a factor in a successful democracy. That is why democracy is such a roaring success in Europe and America.

It's also a success in countries with not so much money. Ukraine, Poland, West Germany right after the war. Most of Eastern Europe is doing well with democracy, despite the fact that they don't have much money.

He would also pander to his bailiwick and get baited into a war that China cannot win. Hence "war and ruination".

A war with who?

They have no sensible other choice. No other party has existed in China for the past half-century.

I guess we don't know what would happen, since no one is allowed to find out. But if the Communists are so sure to win, then why not go ahead and hold elections? If they are elected it will legitimize their government.

Personally I feel that those are the unwanted baggage that comes with democracy, and hope that a future democratic China can do without them.

The unwanted baggage of democracy is much preferable to that of authoritarianism.

Why not let everyone has their way? Because what they would bring is ruin and troubles. They were kindly asked to move out of the way, and that their grievances would be heard. Instead they insisted on being recalcitrant. China is not a democracy by the way, nor does claims to support democracy give legitimacy to riot.

I said have their say, not have their way. The freedom to air one's opinion is a basic test of a society, and China failed. "Kindly asked to move out of the way" oh my Lord, man, you're in a worse place than I previously thought.

What? He was the premier of China, he tried to soften Maos policy, he is judged to be a fair leader of China, that he tolerated Maos indiscretion is because he does not want to die. Anyway i chose Zhou Enlai in response to a post which stated that there is no good communist.

He was the number 2 man in a regime that killed millions! What else do you need to know? Do you think he didn't mean to?

Luckily i am not in the west, noone has substantiated or claimed with confidenc that anyone was run over by a tank, but we know that someone was not run over by a tank in China. Your claim sir that China ran over its students with tanks was a deliberate misintepretation at best.

Let me repeat what I already said: I DON'T CARE if anyone was run over by a tank. Moreover, if you examine this thread, you will find that I did not claim that anywhere. What matters is that people were killed, doesn't matter how.

I have relatives who lived through the aftermath, they claim and it is substantiated by official chinese records that several soldiers were killed either by gunshot wounds or molotov cocktails. Your claims of my judgement being influenced by propaganda is the one that is unsubstantiated. You are the one that is spreading misinformation.

Forgive me if I don't take "your relatives" and the Chinese government as the gospel truth. Maybe some students got a hold of weapons and defended themselves. What matters is that the Chinese government started the shooting, and killed many innocent, unarmed people. That is all that matters.

Anyway, boys, it's been fun, but I feel like we're kind of :deadhorse: here, so I'm gonna make this my last post. I will give you the last word and read what you have to say, but I won't reply. I'm sure we will cross paths again. ;)
 
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