Do you think the Scots should be added to civ3?

[Capt Buttkick]

Originally posted by Jormurgandr
Capt Buttkick:
Scotland is represented in its early history by the Celts, who they were a part of. After it was united with England, the two have shared a common culture, history, and achievements (although they certainly were not identical). As I said, they are represented by two other civs.

I don't think that's absolutely accurate. Scotland grew as a kingdom of it's own long before it was united with England.
Also: Scottish culture has to a large degree remained distinct from English culture.
But my point wasn't that the Scots weren't represented, but that it's a mockery of Scotland to represent them by their oppressors.

I don't want to open a can of worms here, but think of all the examples we have through history of nations that for one reason or another has been under the yoke of another nation. Would they feel content, in any setting, by being represented by their rulers?
Granted, the England/Scotland matter is not as heated as many other similar issues, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
Think of how most Swedes respond to the fact that of Scandinavia's 5 first cities, 3 are norwegian, 1 is danish and 1 is Icelandic (!).

 

[Pangur Bán]

Why not include the Greeks in the Ottoman civ?

 

[Eklektikos]

I vote "nah". Not because I fail to recognise the impressive influence of the Scots upon the world, but because - unlike the civs which have been included thus far - they have never been a major temporal power in their own right.

 

[Kudos]

No way, the celts are close enough.

 

[bholed]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
Well, It would be better if England was Britain and included the scottish cities, then to include Scotland as a civ of their own.

In a gaming context's that would be a very good idea, as it was not the "English" Empire but the British empire and it would be good to have a few Scots Welsh cities.

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by Capt Buttkick
Think of how most Swedes respond to the fact that of Scandinavia's 5 first cities, 3 are norwegian, 1 is danish and 1 is Icelandic (!).

Yeah, that's totally absurd

 

[Copernicus]

For all those not sure about the Scots' place in history, check out:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World & Everything in It

by Arthur Herman

Quite good.

David Hume
James Watt
Adam Smith
Andrew Carnegie
Arthur Conan Doyle
Alexander Graham Bell

....just a few examples of important Scotsmen.

All that said, I voted against the Scots being included in Civ3. Civ3 should add more Civs from other parts of the world, like the Polynesians. Part of the fun of Civ is "what would have happened," so the fact that the Polynesians and sub-Saharan African civs didn't reach the same level of empire-building shouldn't count too strongly against them. I think the choice should be based on uniqueness of the civ and its potential to produce some interesting games.

Change the poll - I vote YES to the Scots being in Civ4, as long as their are about 50 civs.

 

[Zenon_pt]

Should the British become a civ???

Always SHOULD!!!

Create a mode map of GR, and put the English, the Scot's, the Irish (Eire and Ulster) and Walles...

Or put all European as the EU, and start on a World map...

 

[Pangur Bán]

Zenon, and you don't want me to merge Iberia.

 

[Zenon_pt]

Iberia no, but Europe I'm OK with that!!!

 

[Vietcong]

Originally posted by calgacus
I mean, they didn't add them to conquests...but they might have. So, just like the Assyrians poll, it a question of whether or not they should have been added.

PROS


1) Centre of Enlightenment
2) Scottish Intellectuals shaped much of the modern world
3) Scottish inventions shaped modern world
4) Scotsmen shaped the world more than most nations, almost everywhere, from Russia to Canada.
5) Last independent Celtic kingdom in the world
6) They're cool, esp. the highlander/clansman UU

7) Neither proper Celts, nor English, the Scots have a pretty unique history
8) Although it's small, there are many civs just as small historically, that may or may not be as worthy (However, let's not go there...it's already been done on CFC)


CONS

1) Small
2) Never had a big empire
3) Europe is already waaaaaaay overrepresented
4) Not many Scots buying civ3??

cneter of enlightment? shaped the modren wrold?? ummm...oooooooook...

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Vietcong


cneter of enlightment? shaped the modren wrold?? ummm...oooooooook...

yeaaaaa....boooooooo

Spamming and trolling are against the forum rules

 

[Black Waltz]

As a Scotsman myself. I'd have to say no. We just haven't done anything to be considered a great Civilization. We were crushed and simply incorperated quite easily into another, much greater, Empire. Even now we are tiny - only 6 million people. Our acomplishments are few and when compared to other Great Empires such as Rome, Greece, Brittish and American we are smallfry.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Black Waltz
As a Scotsman myself. I'd have to say no. We just haven't done anything to be considered a great Civilization. We were crushed and simply incorperated quite easily into another, much greater, Empire. Even now we are tiny - only 6 million people. Our acomplishments are few and when compared to other Great Empires such as Rome, Greece, Brittish and American we are smallfry.

Indeed, but comparing Scotland with Rome, England and America isn't necessary. You have the Iroquois, the Aztecs, the Zulu, and the Netherlands for comparison too.

BTW, Scotland only has 5 million these days.

 

[Mobilize]

No, Ireland deserves it more because they're actually an independent country.. but even they don't deserve it. In my game I combined the Scots, English, and Welsh to be the British and I made the Scottish Highlander another UU for them as well as the Man-O-War.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Mobilize
No, Ireland deserves it more because they're actually an independent country.. but even they don't deserve it. In my game I combined the Scots, English, and Welsh to be the British and I made the Scottish Highlander another UU for them as well as the Man-O-War.

Many of the civs in the game aren't currently in existence as states. The 8 decades of Irish independence amount to very little.

 

[Mobilize]

When independence is something you don't have it is. Trust me.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Mobilize
When independence is something you don't have it is. Trust me.

OK. But the Scots were independent longer...so that still doesn't argue for the Irish.

 

[Mobilize]

But my point is.. they aren't any longer. Hell Native Americans were independent longer than the Scots, but they aren't really anymore.. plus 95% of us were eradicated..

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Mobilize
Hell Native Americans were independent longer than the Scots

What do you mean?