Does anyone else hate gunpowder?

[MagisterCultuum]

Hmmm...woudl ti be possible for Arquebi to have negative first strike chances (i.e., giving any unit fighting them first strike chances)? I think that would be a good representation of the unreliable technology.


I still think that the archers should have ranged attacks, and be split into 2 seperate lines:

Archer -> Longbowman -> Marksman

Would have no resource requirements and would be very good on first strikes and defensive strikes (perhaps getting several drill promotions for free). They would be more useful for ranged attacks than direct combat (preferably ranged attacks would be made to give some xp). Longbowmen may gain a little collateral. Marksman would have a minimum level requirement, and would be able to kill at range.

Archer -> Crossbowman -> Arquebus

would have more expensive techs and building requirements (Machinist Shop and Alchemy Lab?), but the units themselves would be cheaper. I'm leaning towards none of these being national units. They too would have ranged attacks and possibly collateral, but the damage caps would be low.

In FF based mods, I'd probably not let Crossbowmen or Arquebi get passive training.



Adding a "Pinch" promotion could be good too.

 

[Mailbox]

I like the civilizations being able to advance to something beyond powerful magic and I think that the gunpowder tech is a great thing for the mod. Like KC said, it gives a sense of real progress, but it is also expensive so that it means that said civilization focused more on the industrial aspects of Erebus instead of the arcane.

There is nothing quite like taking the Bannor to guns and then using a totally different kind of "holy fire" to cleanse Erebus of demonic scum.

I don't like the idea of making the gunners less powerful because if guns are being produced in such great quantities, then most likely they're reliable enough to be effective. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of adding Ren/early industrial techs to the tech tree and making magic die out (hopefully it will materialize into a modmod at some point ).

 

[Khai]

I really don't like gunpowder in the mod at all except for some limited units...I typically disable blasting powder and some of the ships.

I really think it ruins that atmosphere that much to have unlimited muskets running around everywhere.

 

[mimic]

Thing is...some of the ships act like they have cannons when you haven't even researched gunpowder yet.

 

[avalonnn]

I like gunpowder the way it is because of balance issues.

 

[Guybrush!]

I love the 'They expect us to WHAT?' promotion in HadesScorn's post, and I quite like the idea of unreliable new technology.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Maybe they shouldn't be called arquebuses. Those are pre-musket tech, right? I think gunpowder does have a place even in a setting like Erebus as a viable tool, but not when used through a gun that's worse than muskets.

 

[steampunk1880]

As for me, I sometimes wish they went a little further into early modern stuff and started messing around with clockpunk. But that's what mod-mods are for.

 

[JFSebastian]

What if you introduced a mechanic where arquebus units had a % chance to injure themselves after attacking? Ha!

 

[WarKirby]

A few things to address.

Firstly, I think the blasting powder tech should be made significantly more expensive, and it's +1 mine bonus moved down to engineering or somesuch.

Musketmen should have the Fear promotion, because people would seriously be scared of all the big loud shooty things. And maybe 12 strength instead of 10.

Musketmen should be a lot more expensive in to train, so you wouldn't rely on them so much as defensive units everywhere, except for dwarves who would have a lower cost maybe, for their ingenuity. They currently cost 180, so I'd say raise their cost to about 300

They should have a building requirement. Perhaps an alchemy lab, or add something new like a Firing Range.

And I would make them a national unit, although with a limit of 6-8, not 4.

Also, if you think early guns don't fit well with a fantasy theme, I'd suggest watching Princess Mononoke Story sometime. It's awesome.

As for other rebalancing around them, I'd remove the national unit limit on crossbowmen, but make them weaker:

Crossbowmen now: 9/13 1 First strike, 240
Longbowmen now: 5/6 1 first strike, 120

I would change crossbowmen to 7/5, with the same ability to use bronze/iron weapons as longbowmen. More attack, slightly less defence.

But, I would also give longbowmen some more first strikes. 3, instead of their current 1. This is generally based on the notion that a crossbow takes a long time to reload, and a skilled archer could nock and loose arrows much faster than a crowwbowman.

Since crossbowmen can't fire in an arc so well, I would reduce their city/hill defence bonuses to 15%, not 25%

And lastly, I would lower the cost of crossbowmen to 70, significantly less than a longbowman, to reflect the lesser training required to wield such a weapon/

 

[Yaotzin]

Giving archers more attack than defense makes no sense at all.

 

[JeffSteel]

Well for what my two cents are worth I like things the way they are.

 

[Caradoc]

I have no problem with Blasting Powder apart from the idea that it is a natural resource. It clearly ties in with Alchemy and its role in game is properly limited.

 

[WarKirby]

Giving archers more attack than defense makes no sense at all.

But they're not archers, they're crossbowmen.

Although a weapon like a crossbow takes a while to load, once loaded, it can stay loaded for as long as you need it. Whereas with bows, someone's arm would get tired if they walked around with it drawn at all times. So crossbows could be better when a fast reaction is needed.

In crowded, close quarters city streets, for example, a crossbow would be a far more effective weapon than a longbow, as an attacker. You could round a corner, and instantly put down any axeman that you see, where an archer would face death from the few seconds it takes to draw the bow.

Ultimately, the point is, bows and crossbows are different tools, for different jobs.

 

[thadian]

i like gunpowder/mage stacks, yes. i don't feel they are that overpowered.

i won my last game from them! I had my 2 hero's killed (fighting with a 94% to win odds) but still lost. had i not teched GP, i would have not won. also, i didn't get a flamming heap of arquebus - i had 1-2 in each stack.

Edit: As nothing i have seen can upgrade to them, i don't think they do any "harm". thank god cata's can not upgrade.

 

[Kyroshill]

i like gunpowder/mage stacks, yes. i don't feel they are that overpowered.

i won my last game from them! I had my 2 hero's killed (fighting with a 94% to win odds) but still lost. had i not teched GP, i would have not won.

Tanks would help you win too... but that's not a reason to put them in the game.

also, i didn't get a flamming heap of arquebus - i had 1-2 in each stack.

Players are different.... when I finally get around to teching BP.... I'll stick a gun or two with city defense in my major capitals.

My problem is that any AI who can build them.... spams them from the time they become available.

In my last several games.... no AI is teching religion or magic.

So by turn 400, magic is dead and it's guns shooting skeltons and vampires.

Now while that sounds like a great Rob Zombie flick... it's not how I pictured FfH

 

[WarKirby]

The AI seems to have strange research paths in general.

I read somewhere yesterday, that they all have a massive weighting towards military techs.

 

[JDexter]

I hate gunpowder and "high-tech" in fantasy settings. Takes the fantasy out of fantasy IMO and is not fun.

 

[Lone Wolf]

To me, both swords and muskets fall into "old and exotic" category.

Well, the muskets are advanced enough for me to feel the progress of the world, but not advanced enough to lose the "other-wordly fantasy" feel.

 

[Algeroth]

I don't know where you people taken the idea that musket should be expensive to build taken from. As someone said above, there are good historical reasons that the muskets win over longbows and crossbows. Their easiness to manipulate and their price.

The crossbow (and gunpowder weapons) was favoured over longbows because after few weeks of training you had a fully professional crossbowman while longbows taken whole life training to master. Even someone who wield crossbow for the first time in his life, performed pretty good, while with longbow he would only hurt himself.

And muskets have one more advantage. There were cheap to product. While crossbows required precise ( And thus expensive) machinery to be used in their creation, the first muskets were hardly something more than strong metal pipe.