Only the Πορφυρογέννητος ones. And all the othersI hope you are referring to those with direct line of descent from the imperial line, and those without
Does Race exist?
- Thread starter H4run
- Start date
Right. Greeks can be divided into subcategories as well, but "Greeks" is still a valid concept
Its not a race though, its a culture and nationality.
Many Greeks will have ancestors from people of other cultures, many people of other cultures will have Greek ancestors (particularly in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Italy, North Africa) but they usually aren't Greek by culture or nationality.
Senethro
Overlord
What text or figure is giving you this impression?
Greeks are a nation, indeed.
The earlier discussion about Lewontin's fallacy and the fact that two Irish are genetically closer to each other, than to Australian aborigine.
Senethro
Overlord
Why is this like pulling teeth?
So suddenly not an article and just something Truthy said? Ok, whatever, but how does that show racial clusters and that the racial clusters reflect black, white, asian (as in the lay terminology of race) etc.
No, it's not just something he said. The individuals with similar phenotypical traits are tend to be genetically closer to each other, than to other subgroups. Smaller clusters roughly correspond to ethnic groups, larger - geographically distributed by races/continents. It's possible to distinguish people of African descent and Caucasians by DNA analysis.
Not enjoying discussion?
H4run
Deity
This thread would have hundreds of posts by Domen. I hope he returns to the forum sometime
someone like him should be somewhere around Europa universalis forum
Senethro
Overlord
Just because you say it is, doesn't mean it is. You don't have actual evidence, you just wish it to be true.
You're deliberately making it unrewarding to interact with you to try to "last word" the interaction without ever having to say anything of substance.
What kind of actual evidence you need? I demonstrated that the term race is being used in scientific literature and research based on it produces valid, statistically significant results.
I don't "wish" it to be true, what's in it for me? It just is true and you are denying reality.
Some scientists use it in research and consider it helps produce valid results, other argue its not valid and can distort results https://theoutline.com/post/1105/why-the-notion-of-race-persists-in-science
Senethro
Overlord
That line there in your second post I quoted. Thats your actual claim and position. It is the one you can't support.
The question is what to do with research showing different disease rates between African-American and Caucasians. How to interpret it without using the concept of race?
Just discard the results as irrelevant or invent politically correct term to replace race?
It has been discussed multiple times in the thread. It's not my fault that you skip lengthy posts instead of reading them:
"Nevertheless, without using prior information about the origins of individuals, we identified six main genetic clusters, five of which correspond to major geographic regions, and subclusters that often correspond to individual populations."
https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/popstruct.pdf
The section dealing with why using race is a problem,
“People advocate for the use of these categories in research as a way for us to separate people and identify the genetic variations that are more frequent in those groups,” said Shawneequa Callier, a professor at George Washington University who studies issues around genetics research. “The problem is when you try to translate that to care, because you can’t look at someone and know their genetics.”
If you use race as a basis for treatment rather than genetics the result is going to be some people receiving incorrect treatment.
That's true.
But we apparently don't have enough research based on genetics rather than race, because DNA analysis is more expensive than visual dividing people into few subgroups.
So, the alternative is not to use statistics at all, discard that research. I believe it may result into even more people receiving incorrect treatment.
The problems they state is lack of precise definition of race, inconsistency between different articles and negative connotations about the term. All of them can be addressed.
Senethro
Overlord
They found 6 groups because they set K = 6. They can set K to whatever they want and it'll produce a result. Thats how the thing works! It splits off the outgroup. Watch it go from K = 2 to K = 6. At K = 2 it identifies the dividing line at about the Himalayas. At K = 3 the Sinai appears. K = 4 the Bering strait. K=5 is the Pacific Ocean. At this point they stop because its about to start splitting off tiny islands and isolated communities and not reveal much of use. Already at K=6 it was starting to split off odd groups such as the Kalash rather than any recognised "races". Furthermore each of those pixels on the figure is an individual and look at where they sources their ethnicities. Look how over-represented the Isle of Orkney and Basque people are!
The paper is a well constructed exercise in identifying population structure but it is a poor sample of the human race, because that is not what they intended to do, and you should not use it that way!
As they themselves said:
"Because most alleles are widespread, genetic differences among human populations derive mainly from gradations in allele frequencies rather than from distinctive “diagnostic” genotypes. Indeed, it was only in the accumulation of small allele-frequency differences across many loci that population structure was identified."
Human genetic diversity is clinal. You draw a line across a continent, graph a locus or loci, and the populations from one end to the other will go from all red to all blue by gradation (assuming no recent migrations or evolutionary pressure on the locus akin to adult lactose production).
This is why they need to analyse many hundreds and thousands of loci to produce a result. They need to sum 400 clines to generate the power to make groups appear. 400 clines to identify the blips at major geographical barriers such as the Himalayas and the Pacific Ocean.
The Kalash are argued to be distinct from the general population of Afganistan, and at least the Kalash themselves claim that (their tradition is that) they are descended from Alexander the Great's soldiers/other groups brought during that expedition.
At any rate there were greek kingdoms in central Asia (up to India) even after the rest of the greek world was conquered by Rome or Parthians.
Indeed. They probably used k-means clustering or something similar.
I'm showing example of DNA clustering by geographic locations.Paradox forums are probably the most fascist ones a computer game can have
Re Domen, though, i like him. He didn't have bad intentions, nor was he fascist. He just loved dna lists... (and Poland).
