Does Race exist?

[H4run]

Unless we clear this thing up I think this will always drag our race related discussion more to the subtopic than the main topic.

No, dude, there are no actual races, "black people" aren't a race either. "Islam isn't a race" is frankly just a stupid thing to say.

from Alana Lentin "Post Race Post Politics"





the culturalization of race is definitely happening, there is no doubt about that. the sickening thing about race """science""" is that it has penetrated our skulls in a way that really could not have been foreseen. race doesn't comes up even remotely as often in European discourse, like it does for example in American discourse. Yet it is still omnipresent, but culturalized. European islamophobia is not, in fact, a fear of Muslims or of Islam the faith, most Islamophobes generally don't give a damn whether they're dealing with a zoroastrian or a seekh or a shia muslim or a sufi muslim or whatever. They just really resent brown people. If most Syrians coming to Europe were atheist, they would sure as hell still complain, but find a different scapegoat (which currently is the ""barbarism"" of islam and it not being "compatible" with western values).

the other thing with culturalization of race is that you can talk about culture, and two cultures being "incompatible" much more freely and publicly than you could talk about race. it's at the same time a strategy to both reach out to moderates and dogwhistle to extremists. the above quote sums it up pretty well. funnily enough the author is an aussie specializing in European studies and European sociology. anglo scientists just love their racism



Islam is not a race, that is for sure, but many xenophobes project their hatred of brown people onto Islamic culture. they also probably hate islamic culture, but generally don't give a hoot about it nor know much beyond propaganda.

so race doesn't exist until you want to call people racists?

Racists arent some hivemind. It's a spectrum. My mom for instance is probably slightly racist, mistrusting mainstream black culture (which to be fair many blacks also do) but she likes "hard working Africans". She'd also probably prefer I bring home a "nice" black girl than a white one who's all tatted up.

I know there are actual racists who will be against anyone not Aryan but they're a very small segment and probably shrinking, they just create a lot of noise to appear bigger than they are.

Instead of whining about how horrific the opposition are I hope the Danish left has learned from the US's mistakes and created a solid platform of their own.

its like saying race does not exist but people are racists

Race doesn't exist in the same way that money "doesn't exist".

Race is a social construct.

I mean, this is quite an amusing exchange:









Like... you did get that that was a criticism of what you were doing right? So agreeing with it is kind of weird. But amusing

I also invites other that I know enthusiast on discussing this topic @Angst and @Peuri

Let me start the discussion by asking you, the reader's, opinion about three things:

1. Does Race exist and has its reference/basis in reality?
2. Are we agreed that many variable can be racialized?
3. If any neutral, non race variable (despite race itself exist or not in reality) suffers racism and being treat like one, can it declare itself as a victim of racism despite it is not being a race?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

One of the first things I was taught in my anthropology classes in college is that we are all HUMAN. "Race" is merely a matter of culture and minor genetic variation that in no way prevents humans from one region of the planet from interbreeding with humans from other regions of the planet.

And it annoys me greatly when I'm asked on some survey or census form what "racial background" I have. I realize that they really want to know if I have First Nations status (a whole different set of rules can kick in if I answer "yes" to that), so why not just ask that, and if they want to know about recent(ish) immigrants/refugees, just ask if someone was born in Canada or elsewhere, and if the answer is elsewhere, ask where, and when they came to Canada.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Do you mean race like Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals ? Or more like glorious PC gaming master race overlords of Burger King ?

 

[H4run]

One of the first things I was taught in my anthropology classes in college is that we are all HUMAN. "Race" is merely a matter of culture and minor genetic variation that in no way prevents humans from one region of the planet from interbreeding with humans from other regions of the planet.

Completely agree with you, race is a social construct, it is doesn't has any reality in itself it is in our mind.

However if race does not exist can someone become racist? can someone inherit a behavior of discriminating something that is not exist to begin with?

Do you mean race like Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals ? Or more like glorious PC gaming master race overlords of Burger King ?

I mean like European, Asian, etc. What do you think?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

If someone is racist, it is because of his own belief that races can distinguish between people. It doesn't matter whether his belief is grounded in reality or not
Someone who is victim of racism is a person who is discriminated against on the basis of certain racial opinions. Those opinions are those of the discriminant alone.
XIXth century European science tried to support racial theories. Didn't work. It's a sour soup of hateful, self-serving blah blah blah and the scientific aspect is only a pretense.

Discrimination, xenophobia, chauvinism, prejudice and more can exist without appealing to the notion of race.
The very term "race" isn't used in my language, at all, except for dogs and horses. I'm always stunned at how widespread it is in English.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Racism is essentially a social construct to divide people

 

[H4run]

If someone is racist, it is because of his own belief that races can distinguish between people. It doesn't matter whether his belief is grounded in reality or not
Someone who is victim of racism is a person who is discriminated against on the basis of certain racial opinions. Those opinions are those of the discriminant alone.

I cannot agree more with you. Even though race is not exist, but that doesn't meant racism and racist do not exist, because racism and racist are not depend on the existence of "race" itself, but it is depend on the discriminatory acts that its employed.

In this case it is possible to be racist to "blue colored eyes people"
It is possible to be racist to "red hair" people
It is possible to be racist to "communist"
It is possible to be racist to "Muslim"

Because it is not the victim that defined racism, it is the preparator and the acts.

The very term "race" isn't used in my language, at all, except for dogs and horses. I'm always stunned at how widespread it is in English.

Interesting, equivalent word for race are only for animal but not for human, what is your native language?

my native language actually also don't have word for race, we borrowed it from English, there is no equivalent for that word in our language.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Racism is essentially a social construct to divide people

Like class or caste.
Its certainly possible to treat people as inferior because of assumptions or beliefs about race, even if race has no basis in biology, so yes, people can be racist because they are making judgements based on false ideas.

 

[Senethro]

People who think race is not just a social construct are so dumb they can't even define race.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Not only that but it's fluid; even the founding fathers of America couldn’t Agree on whether the Germans, French etc were white

 

[red_elk]

Social classification of people by their appearance must be abolished, because it leads to discrimination. Doesn't matter whether discrimination is positive or negative, both are wrong.
Concept of human races serves very narrow purpose and should be left to biologists and medics.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Not only that but it's fluid; even the founding fathers of America couldn’t Agree on whether the Germans, French etc were white

What on earth did they think they were, then? If you go by skin color, of course most of them would have been white.

But if you're going by skin color, underneath all that black hair, my cat's skin color is the same as mine (I'm blonde, blue-eyed, white-skinned Swedish-Norwegian by physical looks/ethnic background; it's too soon to consider myself "ethnically Canadian" because of how recently my preceding family members came over from Europe).

Of course Maddy is a cat and I'm human, so even if one of us were male, we would still not be able to breed. But we have the same skin color.

 

[Hrothbern]

We all bleed red blood.

Except ofc nobility who have blue blood.

The use of the words "blue blood" for nobility in English books emerged in 1800 and peaked in 1880 (around the same time that words like civilisation and civilised start their peak)
"blue blood" (Sangre Azul) was invented by the Royal Spanish family to make clear they were of "true" Visigothic descent in order to differentiate themselves from the Moors in Spain who were not.

It was the Spaniards who gave the world the notion that an aristocrat's blood is not red but blue. The Spanish nobility started taking shape around the ninth century in classic military fashion, occupying land as warriors on horseback. They were to continue the process for more than five hundred years, clawing back sections of the peninsula from its Moorish occupiers, and a nobleman demonstrated his pedigree by holding up his sword arm to display the filigree of blue-blooded veins beneath his pale skin—proof that his birth had not been contaminated by the dark-skinned enemy.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility

From Google Books N-Gram viewer the English frequency rates of some relevant words for this dicussion.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=blue+blood,civil+rights,racism,racialism,nationalism,civilisation,discrimination,civilised&year_start=1500&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1;,blue blood;,c0;.t1;,civil rights;,c0;.t1;,racism;,c0;.t1;,racialism;,c0;.t1;,nationalism;,c0;.t1;,civilisation;,c0;.t1;,discrimination;,c0;.t1;,civilised;,c0#t1;,blue blood;,c0;.t1;,civil rights;,c0;.t1;,racism;,c0;.t1;,racialism;,c0;.t1;,nationalism;,c0;.t1;,civilisation;,c0;.t1;,discrimination;,c0;.t1;,civilised;,c0

EDIT:
Here another graph with frequencies on the words "race", "culture", "natural" and "nature" added.
You can see that these words are becoming important around 1720-1750. The start of the enlightenment.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/gra...c0;.t1;,discrimination;,c0;.t1;,civilised;,c0

 

[Lexicus]

I recommend everyone to read this essay on race, very informative and interesting:
https://thecharnelhouse.org/2017/03/19/race-and-the-enlightenment/

 

[Cloud_Strife]

What on earth did they think they were, then? If you go by skin color, of course most of them would have been white.

But if you're going by skin color, underneath all that black hair, my cat's skin color is the same as mine (I'm blonde, blue-eyed, white-skinned Swedish-Norwegian by physical looks/ethnic background; it's too soon to consider myself "ethnically Canadian" because of how recently my preceding family members came over from Europe).

Of course Maddy is a cat and I'm human, so even if one of us were male, we would still not be able to breed. But we have the same skin color.

From Benjamin Franklin:

[W]hy should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.

Race has never been static, indeed look at Italians and the Irish, both of whom were considered distinct from "whiteness" but are now both incorporated into the American-centric view of Europe being a "white bloc"

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Here another graph with frequencies on the words "race", "culture", "natural" and "nature" added.
You can see that these words are becoming important around 1720-1750. The start of the enlightenment.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=natural,nature,culture,race,blue+blood,civil+rights,racism,racialism,nationalism,civilisation,discrimination,civilised&year_start=1500&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1;,natural;,c0;.t1;,nature;,c0;.t1;,culture;,c0;.t1;,race;,c0;.t1;,blue blood;,c0;.t1;,civil rights;,c0;.t1;,racism;,c0;.t1;,racialism;,c0;.t1;,nationalism;,c0;.t1;,civilisation;,c0;.t1;,discrimination;,c0;.t1;,civilised;,c0#t1;,natural;,c0;.t1;,nature;,c0;.t1;,culture;,c0;.t1;,race;,c0;.t1;,blue blood;,c0;.t1;,civil rights;,c0;.t1;,racism;,c0;.t1;,racialism;,c0;.t1;,nationalism;,c0;.t1;,civilisation;,c0;.t1;,discrimination;,c0;.t1;,civilised;,c0

Yes. In the beginning, Holy Spain worked soulless Indians in its South American mines.
When the Indians were granted a soul, it became desirable to justify the benevolent European Imperium by other means than faith alone.
Hence racism.
It is directly a medium for European Empires - mostly France and Great Britain - to justify their exploitation of foreign lands/people.
Note that this legitimation goes two ways : it is targeted at the European peoples and at the colonized ones.

When racism tore Europe apart, we started to see things differently.
In some of the most backwards places of the world, like the USA or Brazil, racism has become institutionalized and is inscripted on your ID card.
edit : and to be fair, in places where it is not institutionalized, racism can be found at large, in a rampant, latent manner, without ever the word race being mentionned. What yung.carl.jung referred to as "they really hate the brown". They won't claim it's a racial thing.

 

[Farm Boy]

However if race does not exist can someone become racist?

Because the whole thing is dumb. Microcosm up to the whole. It just needs people spanking their meat about it nonstop and then it's the thing everybody spanks their meat to.

I mean, finding reasons you're better than those other r-***** is kind of basic *****, but "because muh balls" is a particularly ratchet way to be lacking in this fashion.

 

[H4run]

Because the whole thing is dumb. Microcosm up to the whole. It just needs people spanking their meat about it nonstop and then it's the thing everybody spanks their meat to.

Your English is like the 90s Micheal Jordan for my English, when he grow he just want to be as OP as yours

 

[Farm Boy]

Lol! Thanks, but if we're going to be real about it, it's really more like:

Spoiler :

 

[H4run]

Lol! Thanks, but if we're going to be real about it, it's really more like:

Spoiler :

ugh that hurts

those accident happened time to time, as long as it is not this though

Spoiler Warning Violence :