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Does Stalin really belong in the game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by caketastydelish, May 8, 2008.

  1. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    Like I said before. Around 6 million people were killed under the rule of Hitler. But 18 MILLION were killed under Stalin. With that being said, how could you make the argument he was less evil than Hitler?
     
  2. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    Well, you got me there.
     
  3. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Ignore this
     
  4. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    They did not do so near at the scale the Stalin and Hitler did.
     
  5. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    Don't worry, we'll all ignore your pointless, non-contributing post. :)
     
  6. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Wrong, 12 MILLION were killed under Hitler, half of them were Jews. Are you saying that Hitler, the man who systematically (unlike Stalin who worked them to death) murdered 12 million people, is the lesser of the two evils? Plus, Stalin wasn't preaching racial surpramacy. Hitler would have killed a LOT more people. Stalin would have stopped once the country got into gear.
     
  7. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    This isn't fair. just be agaisnt pretty much everybody else on this board in a heated debate. I wave the white flag. Be merceiful. :(
     
  8. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    So the fact that he worked them to death makes it any better? Killing people is still wrong. And besides, I said hitler is equally as evil, not lesser.

    And like I said before, I give up. Leave me alone. :mad:
     
  9. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    I would rather work to death, than what happen in those camps. They were stripped down, robbed, shaved, tattooed and identified, worked, and then gassed and burned.

    Well....my rant is over.:king:
     
  10. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    It was the Romans who were the ones responsible for the Jews being in Germany and Russia in the first place. They kicked every one out of Isreal and sent them on their way. So ultimately they were just as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler was. And incidentally, Stalin did not kill 18 million Jews. Most of the people killed were Ukranians who refused to bend to his iron rule. And it wasn't a direct slaughter like Hitler, he mainly just burned their crops and let them starve to death.
     
  11. raigainousa

    raigainousa Stelthy Jet

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    First of all, Hitler is not included because he is known as evil ruler; Firaxis sales would drop too if he is included, and Nazism is ban in Germany(Civ4 wird in Deutschland verboten?). Second, he is not anti semitist. Third, any leader added to Civ is based on its impact to the world.(I've read that Stalin is still taught in schools as one of the greatest leaders of Russia.) And Fourth, removing Stalin and other leaders who killed millions will be nonsense, as they've played great roles in history of mankind.:goodjob:
     
  12. Point13

    Point13 Like a ton of bricks!

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    Humanity as a whole is brutal. This is like trying to say Hitler and Stalin aren't huge, important historical figures. THEY ARE! In fact, some people speculate Hitler's only not in the game because the German government would ban the game if he was (this is still true yes?).

    Stalin was a major world figure.

    Plus every character has their faults except maybe Gandhi.

    Plus, this game involves killing pure and simple..





    To quote Napoleon Bonaparte- "What then is, generally speaking, the truth of history ? A fable agreed upon."
     
  13. Endure

    Endure Prince

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    If having Stalin in the game offends you so greatly, simply don't play with him and if you happen to run up against him, crush him.

    Personally I think Stalin deserves a place in the game because of the impact his reshaping of the Soviet Union had on the 20th century. His means to his end were crueler and more blood-thirsty then most, but it takes all kinds.
     
  14. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    Actually the Jews left themselves. I never said 18 million Jews. I said 18 million people, and some of those people were Jews. And regardless of how he made them die, it was still morally wrong.
     
  15. caketastydelish

    caketastydelish Hawks4life

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    But admit it- we study very little about the detail of how those people were killed. I know all schools aren't like mine, but we study a LOT about the holococast. We know much less about Stalin's atrocities. And Stalin DID persecute, not work to death but persecute, many people as well. Anyways, like I said before I give up. Leave me alone. :(
     
  16. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Hitler is not included because he was a lousy ruler. He was in power for a very short time yet succeeded in almost destroying the country he ruled. After the war many of the major cities were nothing but rubble, the economy was in ruins and the people were starving in the streets. It was also because of him that Germany was partitioned for so many years. I give the Germans credit for being able to bounce back from the devastation he brought upon the country.

    Stalin on the other hand took a country that in many ways still functioned as an agricultural society and turned it into an industrial powerhouse and one of the two world superpowers. It was because of his policies that the Russians were the first ones into space. His tactics may have brutal but he did alot for his country in the long run. And it was quite a long run too. His reign lasted for over 30 years and his legacy still remains.
     
  17. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    He didn't kill Jews en masse, (althrough there is a theory that he wanted to deport them all to Siberian camps shortly before his death, but it has't got any real proofs), didn't kill blacks (because of near-absence of Blacks in Russia). You should have mentoined the starvation due to lack of crops in some parts of Russia (not only Ukraine), and the mass deportation of some nations labelled as "traitors" after WWII.

    Still, if Stalin was evil, Hitler was Eeeeevil.
     
  18. Molybdeus

    Molybdeus Prince

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    I can't recall the exact phrase Churchill used, but he said that Native Americans didn't deserve any sympathy for their deaths and suffering because they failed to fight off the white settlers.

    You are right about Cyrus. I was thinking about the Ionian revolt, but incorrectly thought they occured under Cyrus when in fact they happened during Darius' rule. Apologies.

    Charlemagne forced everyone in the lands he conquered to become a Christian. He didn't conquer any moslem lands. He stymied moslem expansion, but it was the spanish themselves that would accomplish the Reconquesta.

    My point in that few leaders were saints. Even Lincoln has fierce critics in the southern US.
     
  19. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Like hell they did, they were forced out by the Romans. Do you think that several million people would just voluntarily leave the country that their ancestors had been living in for hundreds of years?

    There were also Christians and Moslems. Stalin didn't discriminate, his goal was to stamp out religion in any form, not just Judaism. And like I said, most of the people who died were Ukranians who rebelled against his authority. It's not really all that different than what's going on today in Tibet, though his tactics were somewhat more brutal. Speaking of China, how many people died under Mao's cultural revolution? Does that mean he doesn't deserve to be in the game either?

    So it's OK for the British to subjugate people all over the world and even force many of them into slavery? Where do you draw the line on morality? Do you think that the Indian people would consider their treatment while under the rule of the British Empire to be moral? I guess that's why they tried so hard to gain independance and why Ghandi was so succesful. Oops, there goes Victoria. We're not going to have too many leaders in this game if we base it on your morality. And what about the Incans, Mayans and Aztecs? They all performed thousands of human sacrifices. I guess they have to go as well, can't have a brutal civ in the game. Genghis has already been mentioned, are you going to kick him out too? Shaka was absolutely brutal to his enemies and showed no mercy to anyone who opposed him. He's gone too I guess. If you want to base it on leaders that didn't kill anyone that leaves... well, Ghandi. Have fun playing a single civ game.
     
  20. Point13

    Point13 Like a ton of bricks!

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    Don't forget the Great Leap Forward either, granted that was starvation.
     

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