Does Stalin really belong in the game?

Ok, adding Hitler would be stupid unless there's a WW2 mod. But taking Stalin out is different, yes he killed Jews, but so did a lot of leaders throughout history. Hitler did it on such a large scale, it was like an industrial killing machine. Plus, Hitler was aiming for an "Ayran" world, Stalin was aiming for the spread of socialism and wasn't as racist about it.
But really, if you don't like Stalin, don't play him. Is it really such a big deal? Hitler was evil, so was Stalin, but comparing the two isn't really fair.

Why not Peter? I don't know, why not both. Seems to me that Stalin did things that turned Russia into a powerhouse that is still here. Unlike Hitler, which lasted at most, 15 years. Again, Isabella was anti-semetic too, so why not remove her?

Like I said before. Around 6 million people were killed under the rule of Hitler. But 18 MILLION were killed under Stalin. With that being said, how could you make the argument he was less evil than Hitler?
 
Charlemagne had nothing to do with the Crusades, he was around long before they ever happened.

Well, you got me there.
 
I guess the Roman civilization can't be in your game at all then since both of the Caesars were resonpisible for killing and persecuting Jews. Who cares what contribution they made to the world at large eh? Just as long as they abide by your sense of morality.

They did not do so near at the scale the Stalin and Hitler did.
 
Like I said before. Around 6 million people were killed under the rule of Hitler. But 18 MILLION were killed under Stalin. With that being said, how could you make the argument he was less evil than Hitler?

Wrong, 12 MILLION were killed under Hitler, half of them were Jews. Are you saying that Hitler, the man who systematically (unlike Stalin who worked them to death) murdered 12 million people, is the lesser of the two evils? Plus, Stalin wasn't preaching racial surpramacy. Hitler would have killed a LOT more people. Stalin would have stopped once the country got into gear.
 
well you kinda raise a weird issue here, ANY leader(except maybe Ghandi)
had something to do with killing people, in varying numbers

Where is the bar? Where's the max number a leader must have killed in order for him to apply as too evil for this game?

The thing is: It's NOT about numbers, it's about IMPACT on TODAY's view
Hitler killed millions, Ghengis killed millions
Yet public views about them vary greatly, this is why the game develepors weighed how do-able certain leaders were.

And it turns out to be that Hitler would just be unacceptable for, you guessed it, THE PUBLIC VIEW/OPINION. Also many German's are ashamed of what the man who used to be the leader of the Germans did, whilst many Mongols are still proud that they had once ruled half of the world because of their great khan.

That's the difference, public opinion, and that;s what the develepors sought to please.
You cant just say a number of killed people and say that the bar, that's the limit, this varies from person to person.

personally, I would allow any leader to be implemented, for me it's just a game, you don;t actually have to play with Hitler, you can just include him in your game to crush him if you want :p"


EDIT: As a side note: leaving all the "bad guys" isn't historiccaly correct either, wich makes it not very fun for some..

This isn't fair. just be agaisnt pretty much everybody else on this board in a heated debate. I wave the white flag. Be merceiful. :(
 
Wrong, 12 MILLION were killed under Hitler, half of them were Jews. Are you saying that Hitler, the man who systematically (unlike Stalin who worked them to death) murdered 12 million people, is the lesser of the two evils?

So the fact that he worked them to death makes it any better? Killing people is still wrong. And besides, I said hitler is equally as evil, not lesser.

And like I said before, I give up. Leave me alone. :mad:
 
I would rather work to death, than what happen in those camps. They were stripped down, robbed, shaved, tattooed and identified, worked, and then gassed and burned.

Well....my rant is over.:king:
 
They did not do so near at the scale the Stalin and Hitler did.

It was the Romans who were the ones responsible for the Jews being in Germany and Russia in the first place. They kicked every one out of Isreal and sent them on their way. So ultimately they were just as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler was. And incidentally, Stalin did not kill 18 million Jews. Most of the people killed were Ukranians who refused to bend to his iron rule. And it wasn't a direct slaughter like Hitler, he mainly just burned their crops and let them starve to death.
 
Hitler shouldn't be in the game. My point is, Stalin shouldn't ethier. And by the way, Stalin killed Jews too. So why is it ok for Stalin to do so, but not Hitler? This anti-semitism should not be tolerated, and in my opinion nethier one of them deserves to be in the game.

First of all, Hitler is not included because he is known as evil ruler; Firaxis sales would drop too if he is included, and Nazism is ban in Germany(Civ4 wird in Deutschland verboten?). Second, he is not anti semitist. Third, any leader added to Civ is based on its impact to the world.(I've read that Stalin is still taught in schools as one of the greatest leaders of Russia.) And Fourth, removing Stalin and other leaders who killed millions will be nonsense, as they've played great roles in history of mankind.:goodjob:
 
Humanity as a whole is brutal. This is like trying to say Hitler and Stalin aren't huge, important historical figures. THEY ARE! In fact, some people speculate Hitler's only not in the game because the German government would ban the game if he was (this is still true yes?).

Stalin was a major world figure.

Plus every character has their faults except maybe Gandhi.

Plus, this game involves killing pure and simple..





To quote Napoleon Bonaparte- "What then is, generally speaking, the truth of history ? A fable agreed upon."
 
If having Stalin in the game offends you so greatly, simply don't play with him and if you happen to run up against him, crush him.

Personally I think Stalin deserves a place in the game because of the impact his reshaping of the Soviet Union had on the 20th century. His means to his end were crueler and more blood-thirsty then most, but it takes all kinds.
 
It was the Romans who were the ones responsible for the Jews being in Germany and Russia in the first place. They kicked every one out of Isreal and sent them on their way. So ultimately they were just as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler was. And incidentally, Stalin did not kill 18 million Jews. Most of the people killed were Ukranians who refused to bend to his iron rule. And it wasn't a direct slaughter like Hitler, he mainly just burned their crops and let them starve to death.

Actually the Jews left themselves. I never said 18 million Jews. I said 18 million people, and some of those people were Jews. And regardless of how he made them die, it was still morally wrong.
 
I would rather work to death, than what happen in those camps. They were stripped down, robbed, shaved, tattooed and identified, worked, and then gassed and burned.

Well....my rant is over.:king:

But admit it- we study very little about the detail of how those people were killed. I know all schools aren't like mine, but we study a LOT about the holococast. We know much less about Stalin's atrocities. And Stalin DID persecute, not work to death but persecute, many people as well. Anyways, like I said before I give up. Leave me alone. :(
 
First of all, Hitler is not included because he is known as evil ruler;

Hitler is not included because he was a lousy ruler. He was in power for a very short time yet succeeded in almost destroying the country he ruled. After the war many of the major cities were nothing but rubble, the economy was in ruins and the people were starving in the streets. It was also because of him that Germany was partitioned for so many years. I give the Germans credit for being able to bounce back from the devastation he brought upon the country.

Stalin on the other hand took a country that in many ways still functioned as an agricultural society and turned it into an industrial powerhouse and one of the two world superpowers. It was because of his policies that the Russians were the first ones into space. His tactics may have brutal but he did alot for his country in the long run. And it was quite a long run too. His reign lasted for over 30 years and his legacy still remains.
 
(he killed Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, and people that opposed the government)

He didn't kill Jews en masse, (althrough there is a theory that he wanted to deport them all to Siberian camps shortly before his death, but it has't got any real proofs), didn't kill blacks (because of near-absence of Blacks in Russia). You should have mentoined the starvation due to lack of crops in some parts of Russia (not only Ukraine), and the mass deportation of some nations labelled as "traitors" after WWII.

Still, if Stalin was evil, Hitler was Eeeeevil.
 
You have a point about Catherine. But at least her murder was one person, and not millions! I have not heard any churchill quotes saying anything like that. Please give me a source. You are so wrong about Cyrus, I don't even know where to begin. Give me one historical source saying this. Are you just making this up? Seriously, Cyrus was a role model for human rights.

Charlemagne only did that beause the Moslems did the same thing. It was a "holy" war between them. They both killed each other.

I can't recall the exact phrase Churchill used, but he said that Native Americans didn't deserve any sympathy for their deaths and suffering because they failed to fight off the white settlers.

You are right about Cyrus. I was thinking about the Ionian revolt, but incorrectly thought they occured under Cyrus when in fact they happened during Darius' rule. Apologies.

Charlemagne forced everyone in the lands he conquered to become a Christian. He didn't conquer any moslem lands. He stymied moslem expansion, but it was the spanish themselves that would accomplish the Reconquesta.

My point in that few leaders were saints. Even Lincoln has fierce critics in the southern US.
 
Actually the Jews left themselves.

Like hell they did, they were forced out by the Romans. Do you think that several million people would just voluntarily leave the country that their ancestors had been living in for hundreds of years?

I said 18 million people, and some of those people were Jews.

There were also Christians and Moslems. Stalin didn't discriminate, his goal was to stamp out religion in any form, not just Judaism. And like I said, most of the people who died were Ukranians who rebelled against his authority. It's not really all that different than what's going on today in Tibet, though his tactics were somewhat more brutal. Speaking of China, how many people died under Mao's cultural revolution? Does that mean he doesn't deserve to be in the game either?

And regardless of how he made them die, it was still morally wrong.

So it's OK for the British to subjugate people all over the world and even force many of them into slavery? Where do you draw the line on morality? Do you think that the Indian people would consider their treatment while under the rule of the British Empire to be moral? I guess that's why they tried so hard to gain independance and why Ghandi was so succesful. Oops, there goes Victoria. We're not going to have too many leaders in this game if we base it on your morality. And what about the Incans, Mayans and Aztecs? They all performed thousands of human sacrifices. I guess they have to go as well, can't have a brutal civ in the game. Genghis has already been mentioned, are you going to kick him out too? Shaka was absolutely brutal to his enemies and showed no mercy to anyone who opposed him. He's gone too I guess. If you want to base it on leaders that didn't kill anyone that leaves... well, Ghandi. Have fun playing a single civ game.
 
Speaking of China, how many people died under Mao's cultural revolution? Does that mean he doesn't deserve to be in the game either?

Don't forget the Great Leap Forward either, granted that was starvation.
 
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