Does the game have enough 'mystery'?

[Exile_Ian]

The question was prompted by some of the conversations regarding Leader-generation from Elite units, plus previous threads about culture-flipping etc.

To paraphrase what I'm asking: Do you think the games internal rules (i.e. the means by which the program determines the impact of your actions) should be more clearly explained - or is it sufficient to keep it more of a mystery where the general trends are explained but less precisely.

Personally, I would hate for the details of the game mechanics to become too 'mathematical'. For instance, if we knew the precise formula the game used to civ-flip a city, I could imagine people running spreadsheets to plug in the relevent values so they knew exactly how many spearmen to move into the city.

When alls said and done, its supposed to be a simulation game - and life is not so predictable. The rules of the real world are not so easily defined and that's how I like Civ3 to be.

 

[Dinorius R.]

Exile Ian, I found I couldn't go with any of the poll options.

By all means, publish all the precise equations, but personally I don't mind if I never find out all the formulae behind the game. But at the same time, I hate the way the player is given no on-screen indicators as to what the AI, or even your own people, are "thinking" - for example, a city just flips to you or against you, with no prior warning. For heaven's sake, put some indicators on screen (a red/yellow/green "cultural health" bar on each city for example) to help us make decisions as we play. That way the boring game mechanics can be a mystery, but it would allow us to play more intuitively and I dare say more enjoyably.

 

[Exile_Ian]

Yes I know what you mean, and I agree - as long as its not a 'City will flip in X turns' kind of approach. That would be too much.

One thing I do find useful (with regards to preventing or predicting a flip) is to look at the 'expand in x turns' display on the city view (if that's not me contradicting myself!). I usually know which cities are under risk (probably small ones on a border next to or surrounded by multiple AI cities). I tend to push for cultural improvements there (temples, libraries etc.) and try to get that expansion factor into a reasonable number of turns.

I work on the basis that as long as my city is expanding, it reduces or eliminates the chance of it flipping. To be honest, I rarely get a city flip that I hadn't in effect already given up on.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I would like it to be a SMAC style (all formulas in helps file).

But Civ2 level would be tolerable too (all forumlas exept complicated caravan trade formulas).

For example, chance for succes of spy missions, Leader generation chaces, how bombardment works.
This all needs to be in manual or help files.


Things like culture flips should be documeneted, but full details are not necessary, just to know which factors are more important.

 

[Rooker]

Good Thread! (could have used some more poll options, though)

I like the mystery as you call it, but sometimes you spend decades (real time ) finding the right way to do something simple (but of course that's part of the fun for some of us ). On the other hand some games lose their charme, when all is revealed.

There's a feeling of reward, when you finally figure something out, which can be a nice advantage against other players (come multiplayer), one that you've earned through experience, and as such can't be called cheating, but rather another dimension to the experienced player.

I think all rules and formulas should be available, To give the gamer the choice. Personally I wouldn't learn them by heart, but sometimes, you want some things clarified, and as it is now you just don't have that option - thank god for civfanatics

Hope this makes sense

 

[damunzy]

I have always argued for more knowledge and most customizability (<- real word?). I am not one for mystery in my strategy games....there was too much of that in EU (especially in the darn user manual) and I couldn't play the game b/c of that.

 

[Thunderfall]

Game developers probably don't want to overwhelm players with those formulas and numbers. Lots of players don't even read the manual!

I consider mystery a good thing. It gives players things to explore and makes good discussion threads. Some things are more fun when you find out about them yourselves...

 

[Aeson]

I like how Firaxis has handled it. For the most part we get to experiment and test, and then when we have it about right they comment and say 'yes, this is how it is'.

 

[rdomarat]

People are unpredictable. It's not out of the question for a city to go into revolt for no partiular reason. Maybe the shipment of widgets from Outsidania was delayed and nobody could make any Widgies for the Apple Blossom Festival. Nobody, not even the great Hari Seldon, could predict the how a group of people would react. Seldon worked on the math to determine the probably that a group of people would do a certain thing, but it was always a probability. Mystery is good. People are unpredictable.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by rdomarat
People are unpredictable

Good point.

Tolstoy discussed the possible causes why Napoleon invaded Russia in 1812 War and Peace, Book IX, Chapter I:

"It naturally seemed to Napoleon that the war was caused by England's intrigues...., to Members of the English Parliament that the cause of the war was Napoleon's ambition.... to the generals and old soldiers.... the necessity of giving them employment.... It is natural that these and and a countless and infinite quantity of other reasons, the number depending on the point of view, presented themselves to the men of that day...."

I edited out most of the reasons to save space, but I particularly like the one about giving the soldiers something to do.

So if the AI attacks you "for no good reason" consider that nobody has really nailed down the causes why people do things. At least I don't believe anybody has figured it out.

But I am also interested in solving the game's puzzles.

 

[Quentin]

They should make nearly everything changeable in the editor but not reveal the numbers by letting editors only modify the chances of something happening or something like that(ie. with a slider instead of a text box).

 

[Jaybe]

One of the great aspects of Civ (2 or 3) is the telling of the story. Mystery, and the uncovering of it, really appeals to me in this game. Surprises, aha's and the unfolding story of the game as it is played.

I WANT TO KNOW IT ALL! But I also want there to be more mysteries to unravel.

JB

 

[Blasphemous]

I have no opinion on the poll, but one thing that I've been thinking about was the culture flipping thing... I think that near every city there should be a little bar, which is filled with the colors of influence. I will son post some images of what I mean. I also think that each citizen should have an opinion of what culture they like, not the city as a whole. When a bab citizen really wants to become british, they will hold a union jack in the cityscreen, or whatever, and will become unhappy. When the majority of citizens want to belong to a certain civ, the city will flip within three turns or so of that status-quo. You could of course bribe them, and they will want to leave youa bit less...
These ideas are sorta half-baked, but I really think culture flipping is too simplified...

 

[WarlordMatt]

I think ShadowFlame's idea has a good point. I'd like to know EXACTLY when my cities will flip so by some means I can prevent it.