rhythmandjays
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6
at the end of the turn i have a CTD...i dont have revolution mod on or the other components...
Doto [AdvCiv ModMod]
- Thread starter keldath
- Start date
Hi Rythmandjays
I think you also need to switch off dynamic civnames
These are the only extras I have switched on:
AI autoplay
Barbarian Civs
Air Bombing
Battle effects
Ranged bombardment
Archer bombardment
Generally get no CTDs apart from very rare random 'system' crashes which are solved by a reload, and the dreaded MAF in very late games - which is why I have autosave set to '1'.
I think you also need to switch off dynamic civnames
These are the only extras I have switched on:
AI autoplay
Barbarian Civs
Air Bombing
Battle effects
Ranged bombardment
Archer bombardment
Generally get no CTDs apart from very rare random 'system' crashes which are solved by a reload, and the dreaded MAF in very late games - which is why I have autosave set to '1'.
rhythmandjays
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6
thanks again for the quick reply...but another question
which file would i have to use to make that change?
which file would i have to use to make that change?
Hi again.
(I'm switching between gameplaytesting and Forum)
To check and tune the DCM components go to globaldefinesalt in the OL xml folder.
My settings are:
Selected (1):
air bombing
battle effects
ranged bombardment
archer bombardment (some say this causes probs - I don't get probs; I love it!)
fighter defense
De-selected (0):
civ customiser
civ changer
stack attack (definitely de-select; still a prob)
opportunity fire (not sure if this is a prob)
active defense (not sure if this is a prob)
Go to main menu and select custom game. De-select revolution and dynamic names.
Play
(I'm switching between gameplaytesting and Forum)
To check and tune the DCM components go to globaldefinesalt in the OL xml folder.
My settings are:
Selected (1):
air bombing
battle effects
ranged bombardment
archer bombardment (some say this causes probs - I don't get probs; I love it!)
fighter defense
De-selected (0):
civ customiser
civ changer
stack attack (definitely de-select; still a prob)
opportunity fire (not sure if this is a prob)
active defense (not sure if this is a prob)
Go to main menu and select custom game. De-select revolution and dynamic names.
Play
rhythmandjays
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 6
thanks alot...i was just makin sure that if i had to start a new game or not to change the settings.
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Keldath, do you think you could use a 36 civ dll? Reason for asking is simple: you've added 2 civs to the existing 34 -> a 36 civ dll would allow to use all civs.
hey guys,
rhythmandjays ,
as pilotis wrote, maybe dynamick civs also cause ctd, i never turned it on....
so with the current pilotis settings,
you shouldnt have any ctds.
tell me how did it do.
b-b,
sure,
ill change it for next release
it used to be 50, but ive changed it cause rev was on 34...
rhythmandjays ,
as pilotis wrote, maybe dynamick civs also cause ctd, i never turned it on....
so with the current pilotis settings,
you shouldnt have any ctds.
tell me how did it do.
b-b,
sure,
ill change it for next release
it used to be 50, but ive changed it cause rev was on 34...
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Well, problem is, the higher you set it, the more demanding it becomes overall on the CPU. But going from 34 to 36 or even 40 (to allow a few colonies) shouldn't be that troublesome.
Pilotis
1. yes, totally what im thinking bout.
2. sure, fell free to do that.
3.
4. i know...but still...
5. humm...interesting, what do you have in mind? i tryed to make it as an "eye candy" to attract players to play it...
man if you have anymore ideas, fixes additions, feel free to post me, heck..feel free to what ever you think is right, im all for it buddy.
zulu,
if your still with 1.5,
try to replace the python files with those form v1.6,
not sure it will be save compatible, or v1.5 compatible....
but ive fixed it for 1.6 anyways...
wohohohoh mama! 93000 gold????? its insane!!!! in 1.6.......youll be poor!
Hey Keldath,
I'm running into the same problem as Zula reported in 1.5 (with the city view not going away). Is there a fix for this?
Looking forward to trying version 1.6.
Biggie
Bastian-Bux ,
yes,
thats the main reason im trying to keep this mod under 60 compressed mb - to reduce to slowness and maf occuernce....but...40 is just an option for those with heavy cpus...not me
Biggie898 hey there,
well.....not much im affraid.... only to play v.1.6 (not sure if you saw, but its out )
have fun.
yes,
thats the main reason im trying to keep this mod under 60 compressed mb - to reduce to slowness and maf occuernce....but...40 is just an option for those with heavy cpus...not me
Biggie898 hey there,
well.....not much im affraid.... only to play v.1.6 (not sure if you saw, but its out )
have fun.
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
OK ... here it is, a first draft of the GEM with all overlord resources. Resource distribution was done as in vanilla GEM: following the current production data. So if you are looking for potatoes in the andeans ... forget it, Germany, Poland and China are todays potatoe countries.
This is a first draft, and especially the sea based resources are ... well it looks ugly. So any feedback is welcome.
This is a first draft, and especially the sea based resources are ... well it looks ugly. So any feedback is welcome.
View attachment ToCivF.zip
Keldath,
Three files.
Civ4Unitinfos.xml with corrected caravan naming so that you actually get trade caravans with 'trade' and 'market'.
Civ4Buildinginfos.xml with 'discover-religion' buildings now obsoleting when the associated religion is discovered
Civ4Techinfos with the health, happiness, trade penalties in the techs required for 'discover-religion' buildings reduced to zero. (There's still plenty of penalties around, but the cumulative effects - especially trade - was crippling...)
I hope these are O.K. but I'm still an amateur with this stuff......
Keldath,
Three files.
Civ4Unitinfos.xml with corrected caravan naming so that you actually get trade caravans with 'trade' and 'market'.
Civ4Buildinginfos.xml with 'discover-religion' buildings now obsoleting when the associated religion is discovered
Civ4Techinfos with the health, happiness, trade penalties in the techs required for 'discover-religion' buildings reduced to zero. (There's still plenty of penalties around, but the cumulative effects - especially trade - was crippling...)
I hope these are O.K. but I'm still an amateur with this stuff......
Keldath.
Another one for the patch.
View attachment CIV4UnitInfos.zip
Druidism. You couldn't get the Druid Shrine 'cos it wasn't in the Great Prophet 'build list'. It is now. Here's the modified unitinfos file.
This also has the corrected caravan naming so dump yesterday's civ4unitinfos.
P.
Bastian-B. I was playing English on your new map (hence the discovery of the Druidism prob above). It's good so far !! The empty oceans don't bother me personally.
MAF.
Yep I do get a problem. I can't reload from within the Civ app after GT80ish; just crash-out to desktop. I have autosave set to 1 so I just double-click the savegame; works fine so far. I expect to have probs with the very late games though.
Also (but check me out) I have to do my first load in this order to be sure to de-select Revolution and Dynamic Civnames:
BTS - Load OL mod - Custom scenario (GEM) - de-select Rev and DynCivNames - select other features - launch
Like I say - Great so far. Thanks
Another one for the patch.
View attachment CIV4UnitInfos.zip
Druidism. You couldn't get the Druid Shrine 'cos it wasn't in the Great Prophet 'build list'. It is now. Here's the modified unitinfos file.
This also has the corrected caravan naming so dump yesterday's civ4unitinfos.
P.
Bastian-B. I was playing English on your new map (hence the discovery of the Druidism prob above). It's good so far !! The empty oceans don't bother me personally.
MAF.
Yep I do get a problem. I can't reload from within the Civ app after GT80ish; just crash-out to desktop. I have autosave set to 1 so I just double-click the savegame; works fine so far. I expect to have probs with the very late games though.
Also (but check me out) I have to do my first load in this order to be sure to de-select Revolution and Dynamic Civnames:
BTS - Load OL mod - Custom scenario (GEM) - de-select Rev and DynCivNames - select other features - launch
Like I say - Great so far. Thanks
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Granaries ain't storing food for me, anyone else seeing that problem?
awesome b-b,
ill post it on the weekand in a patch.
pilotis,
your the man dude,
ill use all you files a a patch that ill post on the weekend.
feel free to do anymore changes you wish,
ill post it on friday.
thanks people.
ill post it on the weekand in a patch.
pilotis,
your the man dude,
ill use all you files a a patch that ill post on the weekend.
feel free to do anymore changes you wish,
ill post it on friday.
thanks people.
Yikes! No. My granary (only one in current game using your excellent map....!) works just as expected. Let me know if you want some help....
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
OK Keldath, you asked for balancing input concerning resources.
In my opinion you can't look at resources without considering 4 other things as well:
- terrains
- resources
- improvements
- buildings
- specialists
Basically it comes down to this:
a base terrain should bring in barely enough to be worth the 2 food needed to work it. All other 3 improving categories should increase this, but all together shouldn't be (much) more then a full fledged specialist with all wonder improvements.
In my opinion food, hammer and money is of equal worth. Culture and science are also of a comparable value. Smilies and health are priceless, easily worth as much as 3-xxx worked tiles, though health is worth just half the amount of smilies (you need two food per worked tile -> 2 health). So I calculate smilies at 6 worked tiles (12 units), and health at 3 worked tiles (6 units).
All usefull terrain tiles bring 2 units, coast even brings 3. So here everything looks fine. We only have to think about those when resources require tundra or desert, as this will lower the total output of that tile.
Now a look at the resources. We can only compare them if we take them at full throttle with improvement. A fully loaded town gives 9 coins, 1 hammer 1 food. 11 units.
A gold mine with everything gives 6 hammer, 7 coins and ... smily. That smily alone is worth as much as 6 towns, as you can have 1 pop more in all your towns.
I'd count an health as worth 6 units (6x1 food), and a smily as worth 12 (6x2 food) units.
Camps (no base income):
Deer: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fur: 4 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Ivory: 2 hammer, 1 coin, 1 smily -> 15
Fossils: 1 hammer, 1 coin -> 2
As you can see fossils are significantly underrated. There needs to be a building that uses it.
I'd suggest a museum, geting +2 science from fossils.
Farms (3 food, 2 hammers base income -> 5):
Corn: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Rice: 2 food, 2 health -> 14
Wheat: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Potatoes: 4 food, 3 health -> 22
Barley: 3 food, 1 health -> 9
As you can see potatoes and barley need to be balanced. Potatoes should be lowered in value and barley raised.
Take potatoes out of the grocer, and its at one less health and fine.
Reduce barley to 1 food and give it a granary +health and add it with a +10% bonus to the ranch and you are fine here as well.
Fishing boats (2 food basic income -> 2:
Clam: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Crab: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fish: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Pearls: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Forest preserve: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Groundwater well: 2 food, 1 coin -> 3 = worthless
Lumbermill: 3 hammer, 1 coin -> 4 = worthless
Mines (5 hammer base income -> 5):
Aluminum: 4 hammer, 1 coin -> 5
Coal: 4 hammer, -4 health, +3 health -> -2
Copper: 4 hammer -> 4
Iron: 4 hammer -> 4
Uranium: 1 hammer, 3 coin, -3 health, -1 smily -> -26
Gems: 1 hammer, 6 coin, 2 smily -> 31
Gold: 1 hammer, 7 coin, 1 smily -> 20
Silver: 1 hammer, 5 coin, 1 smily -> 18
Salt: 2 hammer, 1 food, 2 coin, 1 health -> 11
Sulphur: 1 hammer, 3 coin, -1 health, -2 smily -> -27
The most difficult part. The base income is comparable to farms, so basically you should end up with ~ 10-15 units. Aluminum, Copper, Iron are getting value added through the units they allow. Same should be true to sulphur and uranium. The heavy health mali are overdoing it, better make the units more expensive. I'd suggest scraping those mali alltogether. Uranium should get one back in with Pacifism and/or Enviromentalism. Sulphur ... actually it was used as medication. So why does it make unhealthy?
Coal should get 1 more +health from public transportation ... or scrap the -1 health from Industrial park
About the valuable metals: they are ... strong. Maybe too strong? The 2nd smily of gems is clearly overdoing it.
Salt ... it should be used by a "chemical plant" and give a HUGE production bonus, something along 10-25%, then its worth as much as the others.
More after dinner.
In my opinion you can't look at resources without considering 4 other things as well:
- terrains
- resources
- improvements
- buildings
- specialists
Basically it comes down to this:
a base terrain should bring in barely enough to be worth the 2 food needed to work it. All other 3 improving categories should increase this, but all together shouldn't be (much) more then a full fledged specialist with all wonder improvements.
In my opinion food, hammer and money is of equal worth. Culture and science are also of a comparable value. Smilies and health are priceless, easily worth as much as 3-xxx worked tiles, though health is worth just half the amount of smilies (you need two food per worked tile -> 2 health). So I calculate smilies at 6 worked tiles (12 units), and health at 3 worked tiles (6 units).
All usefull terrain tiles bring 2 units, coast even brings 3. So here everything looks fine. We only have to think about those when resources require tundra or desert, as this will lower the total output of that tile.
Now a look at the resources. We can only compare them if we take them at full throttle with improvement. A fully loaded town gives 9 coins, 1 hammer 1 food. 11 units.
A gold mine with everything gives 6 hammer, 7 coins and ... smily. That smily alone is worth as much as 6 towns, as you can have 1 pop more in all your towns.
I'd count an health as worth 6 units (6x1 food), and a smily as worth 12 (6x2 food) units.
Camps (no base income):
Deer: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fur: 4 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Ivory: 2 hammer, 1 coin, 1 smily -> 15
Fossils: 1 hammer, 1 coin -> 2
As you can see fossils are significantly underrated. There needs to be a building that uses it.
I'd suggest a museum, geting +2 science from fossils.
Farms (3 food, 2 hammers base income -> 5):
Corn: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Rice: 2 food, 2 health -> 14
Wheat: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Potatoes: 4 food, 3 health -> 22
Barley: 3 food, 1 health -> 9
As you can see potatoes and barley need to be balanced. Potatoes should be lowered in value and barley raised.
Take potatoes out of the grocer, and its at one less health and fine.
Reduce barley to 1 food and give it a granary +health and add it with a +10% bonus to the ranch and you are fine here as well.
Fishing boats (2 food basic income -> 2:
Clam: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Crab: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fish: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Pearls: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Forest preserve: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Groundwater well: 2 food, 1 coin -> 3 = worthless
Lumbermill: 3 hammer, 1 coin -> 4 = worthless
Mines (5 hammer base income -> 5):
Aluminum: 4 hammer, 1 coin -> 5
Coal: 4 hammer, -4 health, +3 health -> -2
Copper: 4 hammer -> 4
Iron: 4 hammer -> 4
Uranium: 1 hammer, 3 coin, -3 health, -1 smily -> -26
Gems: 1 hammer, 6 coin, 2 smily -> 31
Gold: 1 hammer, 7 coin, 1 smily -> 20
Silver: 1 hammer, 5 coin, 1 smily -> 18
Salt: 2 hammer, 1 food, 2 coin, 1 health -> 11
Sulphur: 1 hammer, 3 coin, -1 health, -2 smily -> -27
The most difficult part. The base income is comparable to farms, so basically you should end up with ~ 10-15 units. Aluminum, Copper, Iron are getting value added through the units they allow. Same should be true to sulphur and uranium. The heavy health mali are overdoing it, better make the units more expensive. I'd suggest scraping those mali alltogether. Uranium should get one back in with Pacifism and/or Enviromentalism. Sulphur ... actually it was used as medication. So why does it make unhealthy?
Coal should get 1 more +health from public transportation ... or scrap the -1 health from Industrial park
About the valuable metals: they are ... strong. Maybe too strong? The 2nd smily of gems is clearly overdoing it.
Salt ... it should be used by a "chemical plant" and give a HUGE production bonus, something along 10-25%, then its worth as much as the others.
More after dinner.
Vince_2000
Chieftain
Hi...
Very nice Mod... but i got a strange problem ! I have some unhappy people in every city with this massage: " +10 :-( Aaarrghhhh" what ist that ?
thank you
Very nice Mod... but i got a strange problem ! I have some unhappy people in every city with this massage: " +10 :-( Aaarrghhhh" what ist that ?
thank you
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Pasture (no base income):
Horse: 3 hammer, 1 coin -> 4
Cow: 2 food, 2 hammer, 2 health -> 16
Pig: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Sheep: 3 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 16
The horse is a strategic resource as iron and copper -> being able to build mounted units is worth the lacking 12.
Pipeline: 3 hammer, 2 coin -> 5, make methane and natural gas the same and its worth it (strategic resource)
Plantation (no base income):
Banana: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Dye: 5 coin, 1 smily -> 17
Incense: 6 coin, 1 smily per temple! -> 18-126
Silk: 4 coin, 1 smily, 1 health -> 22
Spices: 1 food, 3 coin, 2 health -> 16
Sugar: 2 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 15
Olives: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 health -> 10
Cotton: 4 coin -> 4
Tea: 5 coin, 1 health -> 11
Hemp: 3 coin, 2 smily -> 27
Coffee: 2 food, 3 coin, 2 smily -> 29
Lemons: 2 food, 1 coin, 1 health -> 9
Rubber: 1 hammer, 2 coin, 1 health -> 9
Incense is insanly powerful if you have several religions. As you cut down on that, its ok.
Silk, the 1 health is a bit much, but acceptable.
Olives need one more health to be worth it.
Cotton should get significant +coins from buildings. I'd suggest as much as 25% commerce from cotton alone, maybe even more.
Tea and Lemons same as with Cotton, just a lower level (10%?).
Hemp and Coffee, definitely only 1 smily.
Rubber needs no health, its a strategic resource, so 1 hammer, 2 coins is enough.
Quarry (1 hammer base income -> 1):
Marble: 2 hammer, 2 coin -> 4
Stone: 3 hammer -> 3
Salt: why does it show up here also?
Marble and Stone are important strategic resources, no increase necessary.
Sea farm (2 food base income -> 2):
Crab: 1 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 14
Fish: 4 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 17
Pearls: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Kelp: 4 food, 1 health -> 10
Coral: 3 food, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 18
Why do you need two different improvements for the same? Doesn't make sense if the newer improvement doesn't give more. And clam is missing. So either get rid of fish, carb and pearls from the seafarm or add clam AND improve the the resources. I'd say do the following:
Sea farm (2 food, 2 coin base income -> 4)
Clam: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Crab: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fish: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Pearls: 4 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Kelp: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Coral: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Thus sea farms would be overall worth 2 coins more then similar fishing boats.
Sea Mine: 7 hammer, -2 health, -1 smily -> -17 no reason for the heavy handed health and smily mali. Give that malus to enviromentalism, then its ok for a strategic resource.
Town: 1 food, 1 hammer, 9 coin -> 11
Well: 3 hammer, 1 coin, -5 health, +3 health -> -8 if the health malus is adjusted to +-0 it is ok for a strategic resource.
Whaling boats: 1 food, 1 hammer, 2 coin 1 smily -> 16
Winery: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 health, 1 smily -> 22 ok, but barely
Workshop: 4 hammer -> 4
Windmill: 1 food, 1 hammer, 2 coin -> 5
Watermill: 2 hammer, 2 food, 3 coin -> 7
Soylent Green Facility: 2 food, 1 hammer ->
Waste Refinment Facility: 2 production -> 2
Desert Windmill: 4 coin -> 4
All those are basically worthless. Mostly you are better off to use that pop as specialist. They should be increased to at least 5, better 7. Else nobody will use them except for the most extreme of situations.
Horse: 3 hammer, 1 coin -> 4
Cow: 2 food, 2 hammer, 2 health -> 16
Pig: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Sheep: 3 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 16
The horse is a strategic resource as iron and copper -> being able to build mounted units is worth the lacking 12.
Pipeline: 3 hammer, 2 coin -> 5, make methane and natural gas the same and its worth it (strategic resource)
Plantation (no base income):
Banana: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Dye: 5 coin, 1 smily -> 17
Incense: 6 coin, 1 smily per temple! -> 18-126
Silk: 4 coin, 1 smily, 1 health -> 22
Spices: 1 food, 3 coin, 2 health -> 16
Sugar: 2 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 15
Olives: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 health -> 10
Cotton: 4 coin -> 4
Tea: 5 coin, 1 health -> 11
Hemp: 3 coin, 2 smily -> 27
Coffee: 2 food, 3 coin, 2 smily -> 29
Lemons: 2 food, 1 coin, 1 health -> 9
Rubber: 1 hammer, 2 coin, 1 health -> 9
Incense is insanly powerful if you have several religions. As you cut down on that, its ok.
Silk, the 1 health is a bit much, but acceptable.
Olives need one more health to be worth it.
Cotton should get significant +coins from buildings. I'd suggest as much as 25% commerce from cotton alone, maybe even more.
Tea and Lemons same as with Cotton, just a lower level (10%?).
Hemp and Coffee, definitely only 1 smily.
Rubber needs no health, its a strategic resource, so 1 hammer, 2 coins is enough.
Quarry (1 hammer base income -> 1):
Marble: 2 hammer, 2 coin -> 4
Stone: 3 hammer -> 3
Salt: why does it show up here also?
Marble and Stone are important strategic resources, no increase necessary.
Sea farm (2 food base income -> 2):
Crab: 1 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 14
Fish: 4 food, 1 coin, 2 health -> 17
Pearls: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Kelp: 4 food, 1 health -> 10
Coral: 3 food, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 18
Why do you need two different improvements for the same? Doesn't make sense if the newer improvement doesn't give more. And clam is missing. So either get rid of fish, carb and pearls from the seafarm or add clam AND improve the the resources. I'd say do the following:
Sea farm (2 food, 2 coin base income -> 4)
Clam: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Crab: 3 food, 2 health -> 15
Fish: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Pearls: 4 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Kelp: 4 food, 2 health -> 16
Coral: 1 hammer, 3 coin, 1 smily -> 16
Thus sea farms would be overall worth 2 coins more then similar fishing boats.
Sea Mine: 7 hammer, -2 health, -1 smily -> -17 no reason for the heavy handed health and smily mali. Give that malus to enviromentalism, then its ok for a strategic resource.
Town: 1 food, 1 hammer, 9 coin -> 11
Well: 3 hammer, 1 coin, -5 health, +3 health -> -8 if the health malus is adjusted to +-0 it is ok for a strategic resource.
Whaling boats: 1 food, 1 hammer, 2 coin 1 smily -> 16
Winery: 1 food, 3 coin, 1 health, 1 smily -> 22 ok, but barely
Workshop: 4 hammer -> 4
Windmill: 1 food, 1 hammer, 2 coin -> 5
Watermill: 2 hammer, 2 food, 3 coin -> 7
Soylent Green Facility: 2 food, 1 hammer ->
Waste Refinment Facility: 2 production -> 2
Desert Windmill: 4 coin -> 4
All those are basically worthless. Mostly you are better off to use that pop as specialist. They should be increased to at least 5, better 7. Else nobody will use them except for the most extreme of situations.
