Doto [AdvCiv ModMod]

[primordial stew]

Hmm. We don't quite 'jive' yet. Thing is... the ability to use ANY unit (more accurately a large stack of units!) for ranged attack is incrrrredibly powerful. The problem is how to fade it out for the modern units. Archer RA against TANKS still works a treat.

In modern times, an "archer" is no longer an "archer", but merely a 2nd or 3rd line unit. This is what the "EarlyArtDefineTag", etc are to be used for if one wanted to have suitable graphics to handle all these cases. Or so Sid would say.

Yes, I agree that bombardment, esp early is way too powerful. This is just a tweak of the existing numbers. Just turn down the max damage values of the early units, and perhaps give more bonuses to reduce collateral damage. In ancient times broad shields were a good defense against archers, and in modern times armor suffers far less than infantry will. This can be given to appropriate units.

Also, the system as it stands tends to lead to stagnation (WWI style combat) unsupported by history.

The fundamental flaw IMHO is that bombardment (cruise missile types excepted) should only occur in support of contact combat. In civIII this was handled (at least defensively) by having 0 ranged bombardment. If we could have that, along with "stack aid" bonuses for offensive combat that would be best. Or simpler is just utilize the "stack aid" mod comp, and drop the ranged bombard ability for any pre-artillery unit.

 

[DavidB1111]

To be honest, modern Infantry could defeat bronze age archers long before coming into range of arrows. Guns will always have a longer range than arrows.
Not to mention modern era body armor can stop arrows.

Counting Antitheism towards Atheism is not wrong per se, you could say it is one very radical form of Atheism which ironically shows similarities to other religions.

Fuyu said this.

I'm quoting this to reference Nosefurm's post near the end of the last page. Fanaticism is not just for religions. Even Atheists can have fanatics. See the above quote for why I mentioned Fanaticism. Also, see the band KMFDM for reference to hardcore Atheists.

theism-- and the products thereof (ie: not educating children about the sciences, tabooing medicine, etc.)

Uh, that's just a minority of religions that do that.
However, I do not wish to drag this topic into a discussion about how crazy people can be.

I will run through another game later today and see if I can add anything.

 

[Pilotis]

-Here's a question: is the advancement of Combustion Engine supposed to obsolete Lighthouses? That advancement cuts port cities in value in a big way, forcing me to either accept a much lower population or a much lower productivity (farming all the land around it). If it is intentional, I accept that, and will have to figure out how to get the most of my port cities while I can.

Thanks Nosferum. I hadn't figured out why my big cities were suddenly starving.

K. You really do drive me nuts sometimes.

What is the rationale behind this ? Thing is the 'lighthouse' isn't just a lighthouse is it ? It's really about 'improved fishing', and if anything 'combustion' would enable MORE efficient fishing technology...hmm ?

Another example. The 'Shipyard'. Obsolete with 'Refrigeration'.... Why ? Shipyard is about building better ships. Why would refrigeration suddenly make you build worse ships!! And you can't build a 'modern shipyard' until sonar. And then the damn thing is no better than the shipyard obsoleted by refrigeration...!! Gaaah !!

K. You really gotta make sure there's a good rationale behind obsoleting stuff and how you let the player compensate for the loss (new unit, new building, new civic, whatever...). In fact most - no ALL - tech advances should allow significant new abilities. If they don't then leave 'em out !!

I wish you would spend more time PUBLISHING and discussing what you intend to do, the rationale and how it will affect gameplay. But in the end, it's your mod (and you're BRILLIANT at building it !), and you'll just do what you want ! Anyway. I'll will be giving you a lot more feedback sometime soon

X

P.

 

[Rusty Nail]

I prefer a game without nukes and ICBMs. Is there a simple way to accomplish this?

 

[keldath]

mymy, you have been busy,
hello everyone!

Nosferum, Pilotis and DavidB1111

you guys speak about the sane thing more or less,
pilotis buddy, your right, sometimes, i dont use logic in my descisions, the Obsoletion , not always i fine a proper tech that Obsoletes something, so i look at the tech tree and think whats the furthest tech that i can use to Obsolete a building or something.

i try to think whats convenient to the gameplay.
im more then welcome your suggestions that will help to get in some logic inside

so pilotis, dont try to see the logic, see the fun, the more you feedback the more i can arrange it.


Nosferum, at first i didnt Nosferum the lighthouse, since it really helps cities, but then i thought, why prolong it?
its harder without it - but, what do you think? should i remove the Obsoletion?

about archer bomd', thats a tricky one, what do you guys think, should i leave it as it is? reduce its power? maybe give the archers a ranged attack based on dales code (the kind that siege units have in the mod).

Rusty Nail, hi,
thats an unusual request, its very easy,
go to the xml folder inside the mod, then look for the units folder, then look for the files - civ4unitinfo.xml and civ4unitclass.xml, on both files youll find the nuke units, look for unitclass_icbm on both files, and remove all the section that regards those units, if you wont succeed on your own, ill upload you the files on the weekend.

LoserFry,
im sorry i have no idea why it crashes at your end, very very sorry.

anyway, keep on bringing detailed feedback, the more you bring the better the next version will be.

 

[Nosferum]

K. You really do drive me nuts sometimes.

What is the rationale behind this ? Thing is the 'lighthouse' isn't just a lighthouse is it ? It's really about 'improved fishing', and if anything 'combustion' would enable MORE efficient fishing technology...hmm ?

P.

-I've posted a handful of times and I've already begun to drive you nuts "sometimes?" =) I don't claim a rationale for the decision for the obsolete status, rather I figure the creator of the mod can do whatever they want. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't intentional.

-I *can* understand making obsolete some of the older bonus-experience buildings, else you get a world of heavily upgraded units, but I agree it isn't the ideal method. Ideally, each upgrade would only be a minor upgrade. Still, I've never made a mod, so I'm hardly in a position to preach. =)

-My main worry with the mod is the tendency for civilizations on the other side of the world to regularly ship units over to attack random cities. I've often found myself indefensible.

 

[DavidB1111]

Nosefurm, he was talking to Keldath, that's why he used K.

He was shortening his name a whole lot.

Keldath, I'm not the best source for balance issues, but I can try.

At least regarding Obseleteness or whatever it's called.
I can run through the game and see at what point techs should obsolete things.
After all, doesn't make sense to have archers around when you have tanks.
Same thing with power generating abilities. Once you discover Cold fusion, coal power plants should be obsolete. And Gas, and Electric...and everything else...
Really, with Cold Fusion, Nuclear power plants are more safer and more productive then they have ever been before.

The radiation output is also lowered significantly. No need for coolant water...

 

[Pilotis]

DavidB1111 thanks for explaining 'K' to Nosferum. Sorry Nos. I don't mean to sound like a 'flamer'.

Keldath. I'm sorry but it really isn't about the 'timing' of obsoleting stuff. It's ALL about how obsoleting techs, units or anything affects gameplay. The lighthouse is a good example and I tried to explain it in #2243. You have to offer the player something better with the new tech to replace what you've obsoleted. Otherwise the old tech/ building/ unit shouldn't become obsolete. Why would it ? In the real world how long did it take nuclear power to completely replace coal-fired power staions.... Hum. Well it actually hasn't yet !!! Lighthouses. Like I said, it's more about improved fishing - not just about a tower with a big flashing light. But SUDDENLY they just stop working when I discover combustion... Huh ??

I'm all for fun as you say. I have played and still play LOTS of board/ computer/ etc 'strategy' games and have lots of laughs with allies and opponents about what happens. But no-one I play with will stick with a game where the rules just don't make sense.

X

 

[DavidB1111]

Also, Lighthouses are still to this day extremely useful at helping guide ships.
So, really, they shouldn't be obsoleted.
Or at least replaced by a modern lighthouse.

Or something to balance it.

Kind of like how Archers get replaced by infantry.
You don't get rid of something without bringing something in to replace it. Well, okay, some of the Wonders don't count for this, for obvious reasons...

Your welcome, Pilotis. That will be $30,000.

 

[keldath]

wow 30000$ rip off in broad day light!

ok , thanks for the info, ill remove obsolete of lighthouse.

Pilotis, not all of my obsolete decisions are on a whim, i try to give it a thought.


if you guys noticed, the lopez is back and updated many of his mod comps, is there any one of them that you guys want me to add in?

 

[primordial stew]

I prefer a game without nukes and ICBMs. Is there a simple way to accomplish this?

Go through the XML and set iCost -1 for each of these.

There might be a wonder building which enables nukes, I'm not sure. If so just set iCost to -1 for that.

 

[Blue Senshi]

What's with the Austrian sound effects? They sound ridiculous.

 

[keldath]

primordial stew, that can do also, i think.


Blue Senshi, one day ill fix that.

 

[Blue Senshi]

Blue Senshi, one day ill fix that.

Why not just use the sound effects that are used for Germany?

 

[keldath]

ok, will do.


i did some work on the new version,
i redid all building cost to be cheaper, and i associated the trairts with it as well.


i wanna use some of the lopez new mods, like multi bonus req - i qant some units to need a quantity od 2 of the same bonus - like having a ship that needs 2 oil.

any suggestions which units and which resources?


edit:

hi again people, here is all of the latest changes ive made in for 2.3.8, i might have forgot to right a few more.

2.3.8

LIGHT HOUSE DOES NOT obsolete
reduced all most every building cost
all traits now have bonuses associated with many buildings
tobacco - REDUCED A BIT
transport - made it to only defense
ADDED great artists TO SOME BUILDINGS - threatre building like.
SWORDSMAN CAN BE UPGRADED also TO musket man now.
rifleman attack vs mounted reduced to 10%
raise accuracy of some siege units - not by much - 5% tops.
reduced costs: civics, maintenance, and general unit cost (upkeep).
changed leader attitude more - raised a bit the war stuff - meaning less inclined for war - but not that much.
reduced attitude from open borders (2>1 & 3>2)
change the num civs per map - more like the vanilla.
workshop will get + for food on civil infrastructure.
made legendary culture level to have a 3 radius city size, meaning its "easier" to get 3 size now.
artificial farm now gives 4 food, but can be built at least 1 tile away from another artificial farm ,
some happiness and health were added to some bonuses.
changed name of shipyard - to wooden shipyard.
added industrial harbor buildings - needed for steel shipyard (name changed from modern shipyard).
all power plant types (besides solar) are obsolete with cold fusion.
CIVICS:
emancipation and pacifism changed slightly.
PRO ARMY AND STANDING ARMY REDUCED TO MEDIUM UPKEEP.


i hope some of you have some more suggestions on what to tweak.
for now i cant think of more stuff.

 

[krushyn]

Sometimes I feel like a voucher feeding on others work... but I like to play.... do not have time to mod..... but glad to give any input.....
.... yeeep .... going back to the game ciao.....(that was my input....)


..... always glad and happy to test some beta's!

 

[keldath]

krushyn,

as long as you are happy with the mods game play - im pleased, no wait, friendly, wanna have a defensive pact?

enjoy.

 

[DavidB1111]

Good changes so far.

Uh, one thing,

like multi bonus req - i qant some units to need a quantity od 2 of the same bonus - like having a ship that needs 2 oil.

If you do add this, make sure it's very optional.

I see no reason for it.
Not to mention unlike Revolutions, it doesn't even make sense from a Realism perspective.
How many sources of uranium does the newest Aircraft carrier (in real life) need? 3?
Okay, to be honest, they probably use a lot of Uranium, but I mean, a source of Uranium should be like a Uranium mine. Not 4,000 pounds.

all traits now have bonuses associated with many buildings

Yeah! This is nice.

 

[keldath]

well, i thought maybe add a few units that you can build only if you have 2 of a resource,

you remember the mercenary units? well, they are still in the mod, their code is just disabled - and i did some nice unit model mix there...so that gave me some thought to use them.

anyway, i now divide my attention on two mods - babylon 5 and song of the mood that im remaking now, well until civ5 comes out.
i wonder which i will like more.

 

[DavidB1111]

Oh, okay. I see what you mean by making the items require more than one resource. Okay.
I thought you were going to revamp all the units and make it harder to spam nanoclouds.

If they're in this mod. I can't remember. I know the Dreadnought is.

By all means, add that mod comp in.
Sorry for the confusion.
"David's stupidity breathes confusion." "You are confused."