Double Your Pleasure

Originally posted by Higher Game
As is, 1 Cavalry could represent 100,000 soldiers. That is why they should be cheaper and have less hps.

100k? and then they should be cheaper? wow.

i like to call each of my units a division, since a really large empire might have a few hundred units at most, or am i wrong?

several hundred divisions (division means roughly 10,000 soldiers) does is a very large army (several million soldiers).

but dozens of millions of soldiers .... that would be exaggerated IMO.

so saying one unit consists of 100,000 soldiers would mean making it more expansive, since you shouldnt be allowed to have some 50 million soldiers IMHO.

btw, i think they are expensive enough.
 
Hey, 100,000 soldiers is HUGE. Considering it takes 1 gold to pay off a unit, I would think Civ 3 had just a few thousand soldiers in mind per unit. If a spearman can beat a tank, I would think it represents an army of spearmen fighting a single tank. Tanks are very expensive, so there might only be 1 or 2 in a major battle.

I just want units to be cheaper and weaker to represent the fact that 100,000 men are divided into many, many smaller denominations. Some units cost as much as small wonders. It's too much.

Also, having cheaper and weaker units would weaken the military support feature. Because trade is more common in DyP (1 in grassland BEFORE roads!) I think military support should be slightly weaker. I think despotic governments should have more support and the units become weaker to make it more difficult for a peaceful government to become a military machine. You just don't see Democracies conquering the world.
 
To put it more clearly, I meant that the power and price of the units suggests that they represent an extremely large group of people. I just want this to be changed because it gets silly by the modern age, when you look at the cost of units and what they are capable of doing.
 
Alright...here's a few more small things I've found in the game...

For some strange reason, the Universal Suffrage wonder is called Universal_Suffrage. That needs to be fixed. There are a few units who have graphics that are messed up in the civilopedia. They are the Air Ship, Barbarian Rider, Jeep, and Steam Frigate.

Also, Morbius mentioned the word Zeppelin in an earlier post when talking about Air Ships, and that got me to thinking, wouldn't Zeppelin be a better name for the Air Ship? Air Ship just sounds silly.

When you look at the information for the Energy Grid wonder (Effects part), you'll notice that the code for a link that is supposed to be there did not work. I think it's either that you forgot to put a '$' in front of the word LINk when doing that. But it could've just been that you didn't capitalize the 'k' in LINk. I'm not sure.

The Bomber line of airplanes have too much defense. I know the WW2 bombers could defend themselves against fighters to some degree, but people always knew that the bombers didn't have much of a chance of getting back to the airfield without air support from fighters (that is, if there will be enemy fighters/AA guns). Maybe lower the bomber's defense so that they can fight off very obsolete fighters, but also not stand much of a chance against more modern fighters? That would make things better, in my opinion.

Lastly, I mentioned having obsolete units (especially naval units) upgrade into more modern units. I'll put down how I have them upgrading right now, just as a recommendation. :)

Unit / Upgrades to

Brig / Corvette
Corvette / Steam Frigate
Frigate / Steam Frigate
Man-O-War / Steam Frigate
Steam Frigate / Destroyer
Privateer / Destroyer
Iron Clad / Destroyer
Jet Fighter / Advanced Fighter
F-15 / Advanced Fighter

That's all. Just what I have it set to. :)
 
It would be a good idea to have SOME dead ends on the unit tree! Having a horseman upgrade to a hum-vee (or whatever) is ridiculous. Gold is noticibly easier to get, with grassland having 1 natural gold and additional bank improvements. I mean, theres the toll house, bazaar, marketplace, bank, stock exchange, guild hall, skyscraper, you see a pattern here? Currency is easy to get here, just making the despotic government EVEN WEAKER.

Pop rushing needs a boost, especially in a modern government like communism. Units should hit a dead end in upgrading because gold is so plentiful. Steam frigates would be an example. And, of course, pop rushing should become stronger later on.

A size 1 city has 10,000 population, I think, but a size 12 has 500,000 people. I'm just guessing, but the city size is a representation of the population growing to certain goals. I mean, rushing an improvement from size 12 to 11 should have more power than rushing from 2 to 1.

I seriously doubt if the editor would allow this. ;) Making communism stronger by getting more shields per pop rush (which makes since. Rushing nuclear plant guys will give more than rushing mill workers. Duh!) Is there a way to make pop rushing stronger because gold is so easy to get? DyP is such an immense mod I doubt if we really will finish balancing it. :)
 
It would be a good idea to have SOME dead ends on the unit tree!

Well, I just want the build list to be cleaner, and there are a LOT of units available with this mod. I hate having a bunch of obsolete units that don't stand a chance against the more modern units taking up room in the build list...

Having a horseman upgrade to a hum-vee (or whatever) is ridiculous.

I haven't suggested units upgrading across entire eras.

Now, if they allow you to make units obsolete when you research a certain technology, then that would be a much better alternative than to just having them upgrade to another unit. But that's all you can do right now...

Rushing nuclear plant guys will give more than rushing mill workers. Duh!)

Why? The "mill workers" do much more manual labor than the "nuclear plant guys" do...
 
Exactly! You would have to REALLY have to work the nuclear plant guys hard enough to kill them! The benefits should be greater!

A serious flaw with Civ 3 (and currently DyP) is that gold rules over pop rushing in long term usefulness. You should be able to rush more after the workers start working in factories, power plants, and manufacturing plants. It only makes sense.
 
Take a second to think about it. If you do more manual labor, you're most likely healthier than you would be if you were just sitting down all day (if your diet and everything is good enough). So, the healthier "mill workers" would be able to work longer and harder than the "nuclear plant guys". And, especially under Communism, if you don't work as long and hard as the person in charge there wants you to, you'll most likely find yourself with a big hole in your head. ;)
 
Originally posted by Randy24242424
Well, I just want the build list to be cleaner, and there are a LOT of units available with this mod. I hate having a bunch of obsolete units that don't stand a chance against the more modern units taking up room in the build list...
I haven't suggested units upgrading across entire eras.
Now, if they allow you to make units obsolete when you research a certain technology, then that would be a much better alternative than to just having them upgrade to another unit. But that's all you can do right now..

Actually, if you set e.g. the Steam Frigate to upgrade to the Destroyer and uncheck the "Upgrade Unit" checkbox, then the Steam Frigate should simply disappear from the build list when Destroyer appears. I'm even pretty sure it works ;)
 
Randy24242424 and Pirateiam, I'm impressed by your testing efforts. The next release is approaching (Isak willing ;) ) and if you would like to join the testing team then just send me an email at robert.olesen@get2net.dk.

The reward? Everlasting fame, a quote in the readme (I think, Kal_el and Isak maintains that one) and a sneak preview of the next version.

What are you waiting for?

Other volunteers are ofc. also welcome :D
 
Well I finished a full game of DyP Kal's 180x180 last night wow that took a long time and boy does it slow down some later in the game. I won on a dipomatic vote. I have over 30 saves and a bug list. I will E-mail some of the saves and the bug list to Isak. Just a few quick thoughts. The Secret agent unit cannot be made. I had all requirements but it never showed in the build order. Also what the heck does the radar unit do for you??? Only thing you could do with it is airdrop it in enemy territory and watch it be destroyed lol. Over all it was fun and this MOD has losts of potential but..... It needs major balancing. There are just too many positive (happiness and shield increase) buildings to build. I had cities with constant "King is great" celebrations and I mean 3.7 million pop with everyone happy (soemthing like 16 out of 20 of my cities where constantly celebrating. The biggest problem is that the AI did not build like I did and therefore after the middle ages I was able to build every single wonder. Just greased everyones palms while I built the UN wonder and everyone loved me. I think the AI is struggling with all the new buidlings. One thought that Isak had is that Kals map had too many goodies on it so I am off to try a random map. Oh yeah, RobO sure I will join the team and I will e-mail you shortly.
 
Thanks a lot, Pirateiam. We don't get a lot of playthrough testings, so this is very much appreciated.
I'm curious about the tech advancement rate in the earth map versus a random map, so I'm glad you're starting a random map. Kal-el is planning to add ca. 15 new techs to slow down the tech advancement, and it has me a bit worried. I like the techs, though, so we can always adjust the cost if necessary.
 
Trying to catch up with everything after a week as a victim of Forced Labor ;)

Originally posted by Morbius
in no game ever did i see an AI controlled warship. not a single warship -- never ever.
That's been reported in some of the earlier versions of the mod too - back then it turned out to have nothing to do with resources, so I'm quite puzzled about it. I have a feeling the AI doesn't always build a lot of ships in regular Civ3, but until I have proof, I can assure you this thing is being investigated - i'll update the Known Bugs List list with it later tonight.

Sebanaj: Did you get v.0.77 to work?

Dingocat85: Thnx for the save - I will look into that a.s.a.p.

Randy242424: Thnx for the save - you may want to know the Obelisk will cost 40 shields in the next version (at least that's what's currently planned). About the Air Ship, you may have a point about the defense value - that's Kal-El's decision however so I can't make any promises :)
Also, thnx for the bug reports

Pirateiam: Looking forward to all those saves :goodjob:

Higher Game: Unfortunately there's no way to make Improvements or anything else require a specific amount of resources. The game only cares whether you have the resources or not - it doesn't check the amount :(
Pop rushing will get a slight boost in the next version, and Gold Rushing (?) will get a slight knock down the ladder. There's no way to change the effectiveness over the course of a game though, but since cost of improvements rise, the effectiveness naturally decreases over time, as you will have to rush more and more to finish improvments.

Phew - think I tied up all loose ends now - if I missed any, plz post again or email me. Also be sure to check out the Known Bugs list (link above) and email me if you think I've missed something.
 
There is a way to make sure that you have at least 2 or 3 of a resource. Just when it says resource needed can't you put 2 oil and 1 iron and then will it not require 2 oil?
or will it still be only 1?

Pap
 
Pap: We haven't really checked, but I'm almost sure it will have no effect - I will test it though (unless someone beats me to it...hint, hint ;) )
 
Isak. I've played through an entire game until retirement as the Japanese at Cheiftain level on a hugh map with 16 civs. I very deliberately stayed out of any wars. Would you like me to e-mail you a selection of saved games?

Next time I play I'm going to take time out to note down anything that occurs to me. This time I just wanted to see how it played out.

KingJoshi. Excellent mod swapper - works like a dream!
 
Well, I just played a game through to the late Industrial Ages, and then it kept freezing on this one turn for some reason. :( I think the AI got mad at me for "cleaning up the map" after 5,200 years of peace. Anyways, I have a few more things I've found...

When you look in the Build List and look for the Fishery, you don't see the image for it, just the word Fishery. Is this osmething already known and is going to be fixed?

Also, I checked and saw that the Knight and Indian War Elephant got a HP bonus of 3, while the Chinese Rider only got a HP bonus of 2. They all can be built at the same time from the same technology, so I think that's a little unfair for the Chinese Rider.

Atomic Theory gives you the ability to make High Schools, but I was thinking, wouldn't Public School be a better name for it? It's much more general, and I don't think there are any Preschools, Middle Schools, etc. in this mod... :)
 
There's a problem with AI (version 0.7.7). Clearly it doesn't know how to develop after middle age. It managed, due to a decent gold harvest get some good techs and buy units at good rate, but cities stayed at size 5, when mine were at reasonable 17. Difficulty was regent though.

I haven't tried such people-sensitive government type like democracy, but in federation having war with everyone for like 500 years didn't seem to bother citizens at all. Maybe because of abundancy of wonders?

The idea of having land mines seems to be great idea. Even though a few mines I had were virtually avoided by the enemy, it is good that they spent time avoiding them. I decided not to place more, because was afraid mines are accountable in the army budget (?).

There were no means of transporting trucks (I guess they are good land carries for some units) to colonies overseas. Looks like a transport doen't fit in another transport. I think it would create a dangerous loop of some kind.

Air transportation (by airport) didn't work.

Caravans were unclear. I remember, although vaguelly building caravans years ago in civ 2. This time, since no help was provided I didn't build any. Gold didn't seem a problem though. I also suspect AI didn't know how to use them.

Absence of entires in civilopediae seems one point where least work required compared to the beneficial effects.

Another good point was increased cost of units.
It is really boring to move some 40 atrillery pieces and 20 tanks at deity in regular civ 3, given absence of advanced interface support. Here some 5 panzers, given their ability to bombard (a controversial issue. It eliminates the need for artillery. Something should be done to make artillery more useful. Maybe making subtle distinction between firing at units and sieging cities. Also autodefending against attacks) can easily take a middle size city.

Introduction of full-capable air transport was also a bright idea.

Increased movement rate for air units is controvercial, since it decreases strategic moment, which means no planing of units in advance is necessary. It took a nerve sometimes in a normal situation to decide where to concentrate air units in situation of several fronts, because they could only be used after enemy makes a turn (same whith artillery, except they were changed to lesser degree). This needs to be thought of. Maybe changing it by allowing extra movement when moving between airports (or airbases?), which would then serve as infrastructure?

engineers are funny :goodjob:
 
Medwynn: Sure, go ahead and send them to me :)

Randy242424: Please send me a savegame with the crash, if you still have one.

About fishery :confused: it shows up fine in my build-list. Of course I'm not running 0.77 at the moment, but we haven't consciously fixed this to the best of my knowledge, so i assume it should show up in 0.77 too. It is true however that some buildings do not show up in the Build Button (not the list), but check the Known Bugs list on the DyP site for details on that.

High School vs. Public School: True, it is a bit Ameri-centric :) Changing the name will mean that I have to rearrange the buildings (again) so I would say that I'm in favor of changing, but it's not a very high priority ;)

Dark_Magician: Thanks for the input. I'd like a save-game with the mini-city problem, if you have one (or two). Email adress is isak@privat.dk

Happiness, Transports and Land Mines are still undergoing testing - you're right, were not sure about what the Transports and Land Mines can really do.

Caravans are simply means of transporting production - you can build them in one city and then disband them in another to help finish an improvement quicker.

Not sure what you mean about the civilopedia entries - if you're saying they require more work, you're right :)
 
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