Double Your Pleasure

[RobO]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Wise - This mod is quite a bit different than what you are used to.

Check out the strategy thread

Refer to the civlopedia quite a bit to get used to all the changes (of course not everything is updated in the civlopedia, but probably about 90% of it is and is accurate).

Now, that's a significant improvement.
Three cheers [dance] [dance] [dance] for DJ54 ad Rory_20_uk who have been instrumental in getting the civilopedia up to date.

 

[canabliss]

hi all

in my first games with the DyP mod i got my ass kicked on regent( which i can beat easily without the mod)., now that ive learned the mod im having great competition on emperor.

some changes ive made to balance things a bit...

i found that air units were not worth building and so a navy to protect my carriers wasnt needed either, not enough punch for the sheilds it takes to build air units, so i gave them blitz and changed there movement to 1-early, 2- jets and 3 for adavanced and stealth. now i have massive air battles and must build air units to stop the ai air attacks, and must build a navy to stop there carrier fleets from bombing the crap out of me.

i also changed the " build often" for each civ so that none are checked, this allows the ai to build what it needs instead of only certain civs building air units and other civs building navies, now they all build everything they can.

i also changed the gunship to a land unit, the ai cant use air units that are not immobile so they never built any, now i have stacks of gunships attacking me and my cities and with blitz there a deadly force to be dealt with.

the last change i made was to the air transport, i found it was way to easy to shuffle troops around with just one transport and 8 moves so i reduced it to 2 moves( with blitz) and now you need to build more than one if you want to supply your new town over seas.

with these changes i have the most balanced game i have ever played, now i just need to get the ai to leave theocracy.

viva la DyP mod

 

[Kal-el]

Originally posted by Propaganda
First, I'd like to know why "Las Vegas" and "Hollywood" are wonders. This isn't a game encompassing American history, and it's feats. It's a game spanning all of human history, and that includes foreign civilizations. And, I have to say, it feels a bit kooky building Hollywood in Russia, or Las Vegas in Zululand.

As Dos said, doesn’t it feel strange building the Pyramids in London, or the Great Wall in Washington?

Some of the improvements are totally useless, I have to say. Electricity is one. IMO, Electricity should come with a tech, not through an improvement.

I can handle criticism, as long as it’s edumacated. How would you propose that electricity be given with a tech, and why shouldn’t you have to build it in each city? I know that there are still parts of the US that are without electricity, and if there are parts of the US without it, I am sure there are parts of other developed nations that don’t have electricity either. The interior of China comes to mind.

And why is the Shrine an improvement? It's better suited as a small wonder, and should give 1 happy citizen in every city.

It sounds to me like you are looking for a way to make the proverbial “quick buck”. Looking for the easy out, as it were. You want to just build one thing and get the advantage throughout your empire. There are a lot of those available in the mod. Ask around I am sure people will tell you.

Amusement parks, casinos, and parks are OK, but should be relatively easy to build.

Aren’t they? If you have developed your industrial base you should be fine. And apart from what you may think, Amusement Parks and Casinos take several years millions of dollars to develop and even more to maintain.

Theaters, Television Stations, and Newspaper Companies are good ideas, as well.

Thanks, I am glad you approve.

However, I'd like to propose some new improvements. One is the National Bank improvement. It acts as a small wonder, and gives 5% to the treasury.

Here we go …

Another is a collective farm improvement, which makes 1 citizen in that city unhappy, but increases food in water, and could double city growth, if desired.

Can only use the double city growth flag once. I tried.

Three and four could be National Television Stations, and National Newspaper Companies, which act as small wonders. They could act as resistance to propaganda, lower war weariness, and quite possibly, increase the chance of Great Leader appearance.

Can only use the Great Leader flag once. I tried.

They also make 1 citizen in all cities content, and should somehow make regular television/newspaper stations obsolete(This is, as if, the government has taken over, and nationalized all property, thus become all government property. Due to this, all regular television/newspaper stations/companies gain a bonus in happiness. Thus, they should now give 2 citizens happy in city it is built-in. However, once national newspaper/television comes in, they become obsolete, and their 2-people happy bonus is lost.)

Can’t make improvements or small wonders obsolete. I have been asking for this from day one.

Also, I propose National Army and Naval Bases, or Central Command, which would act as a small wonder, and would allow for Armies built without Leaders, the reduction of corruption in all cities, and building larger armies, overall. However, it would make one citizen unhappy in all cities (to simulate martial law).

The increased army size flag can only be used once AFAIK. I also do not intend on adding any more small wonders that reduce corruption.

Originally posted by canabliss
some changes ive made to balance things a bit...

i found that air units were not worth building and so a navy to protect my carriers wasnt needed either, not enough punch for the sheilds it takes to build air units, so i gave them blitz and changed there movement to 1-early, 2- jets and 3 for adavanced and stealth. now i have massive air battles and must build air units to stop the ai air attacks, and must build a navy to stop there carrier fleets from bombing the crap out of me.

I have been struggling with the air units for a long time. I left them alone initially because the Civ3 system with its lack of range was so dauntingly inadequate. I attempted to remedy that problem by removing the immobile flag, and allowing them movement, but clearly that has failed. I think your solution may be the best one I have seen.

i also changed the "build often" for each civ so that none are checked, this allows the ai to build what it needs instead of only certain civs building air units and other civs building navies, now they all build everything they can.

That is an intriguing proposal. How are their cities developing? Are they building useful improvements or just units?

i also changed the gunship to a land unit, the ai cant use air units that are not immobile so they never built any, now i have stacks of gunships attacking me and my cities and with blitz there a deadly force to be dealt with.

I will probably have to make that change as well. Could you put together the air units section of the spreadsheet with your changes and email it to me. I am going to be adding a new unit the Air Cavalry, using the Huey animation that was recently posted. Cavalry units will upgrade to these new units. Just something to look forward to.

the last change i made was to the air transport, i found it was way to easy to shuffle troops around with just one transport and 8 moves so i reduced it to 2 moves( with blitz) and now you need to build more than one if you want to supply your new town over seas.

Again, sounds like a good solution.

with these changes i have the most balanced game i have ever played, now i just need to get the ai to leave theocracy.

Which version are you playing? I was hoping that 0.86 had fixed that.

Thanks for the input.

 

[thestonesfan]

Hey Kal-El, just out of curiosity, what unit are using for the Colonial Infantry until Dark Sheer finishes his?

 

[Isak]

Originally posted by Kal-el
The increased army size flag can only be used once AFAIK.

Yep - that's true. I tried.

That is an intriguing proposal. How are their cities developing? Are they building useful improvements or just units?

What our fearless leader is trying to say, is: Send me a savegame or two.

Thanks for the input.

I concur - really useful stuff, Canabliss

 

[Kal-el]

I think we are using the Arquebussier unit (original musketman), but that will soon be alleviated.

 

[thestonesfan]

I hope so. I know you probably keep a close eye on the unit flow, but Smoking Mirror just did a killer early cavalry unit, as well as a great pre-dreadnought battleship. The boy is out of control!

Also, I heartily recommend Kinboat's astounding Leopard tank. An idea I had was to make it the Modern Armor unit, and use the original for a new American UU, an Abrams. I'm not sure if it was modeled after one, but having a sea or air UU sucks.

I think I brought this up in another thread, but I might as well mention it here. What about the idea of increasing movement? I'm thinking about trying a game where the foot units all have movement of 2, and the mounted units would be increased accordingly. The biggest hitch that comes to mind is the power of blitzing units. Modern Armor could go from Regular to Elite in one turn.

 

[Kal-el]

I really like his Sabered Cavalry unit. I am thinking of adding it in, but to tell you all the truth, we are feverishly working on bringing DyP up to speed with PtW and I think the rest of the team is getting tired of me adding in all these changes from 0.86. I think there will be time after we get the PtW version completed to go back and add in a few more tweaks.

Then once PtW comes out people can patch the version that comes with the game.

 

[Matthew]

Q: How do you get the maximum number of races on your world map? I only seem to get 8...

 

[Kal-el]

You need to open it up in the editor and switch that to 16.

 

[bshirt]

Kal-el;

By any chance, have you had the time to check out the lack of AI naval use yet?

 

[KDan]

bshirt - it should be fixed already. keep playing with 0.86 and see for yourself If it's still not working look through the naval units and decrease how many resources they need even more. Maybe make a few naval units that don't require any resources?

Daniel

 

[RobO]

More likely resources become readily available in modern times, even for the AI, because almost every "inhabited" tile has a road or railroad.

 

[KDan]

Well, on the DyP earth map there are a LOT of every resource yet in my 0.84 game I never saw an AI ship (other than trireme and canoe and such). And anyway, it's hard enough for the AI as it is, huh? No need to make it harder on the poor things if they can't cope

Kal-El - Have you thought of civ-specific improvements/small wonders?
I think I missed your reply on the idea of beefing up the man-o-war by making it cheaper and upgradeable to modern warships. The idea would be practical rather than historical - allow the English to cheaply build a large powerful fleet at that point in their history, and so long as they've got the cash they can keep that fleet up to date.

Also missed your reply on the non-forestable tundra idea. Make tundra non-forestable (which makes sense... seen many engineers planting trees in the tundra? me neither), and keep it uninhabitable. This solves your 'put mountains everywhere' problem on the DyP earth map.

Daniel

 

[RobO]

We - the team - would like your feedback on the tech cost.

Specifically:

1) By which factor do you think the cost should be changed (presumably increased) for each area?

2) Which map size have you based this conclusion on (i.e. which one do you usually play)?

Thanks

 

[Anglophile]

I was going to give a very quick reply to the request for feedback on the tech multiplier but realized that it is not just a map size question. The higher one has the optimum city number and the lower corruption/waste, the higher the tech multiplier will need to be for a given map size. This is a number I will mod anyway but here are my 'stats'. World size is 240x226, continents, OCN 90, corruption/waste high but a number of buildings modded to reduce it, tech multiplier 320 and not nearly high enough. Playing these stats, I will go to 400 or 480 next game. Dropping the OCN to 60 or so would probably make 320 reasonable.

As for no cities on tundra, it is not realistic. As a Canadian, I can assure you that there are cities (admittedly small) up there (Whitehorse is actually pretty civilized), and as long as you are south (in the N. hemisphere) of the tree line, trees can be and are planted. Cities on the coast do even better - as they do in the real world. I would suggest that the most realistic view would be to make tundra tiles settleable(?), one food, no shields, not irrigatable, not forestable (since growth is very slow and trees pretty scrawny even S of the tree line), plus one shield for mining. This would result in small cities in the tundra near bonus/luxury/ strategic resources; much like real life.

 

[Kal-el]

Tundra will be unsettlable, but of course if there is a forest on the tundra it can be settled. With this in mind the world map will be revamped. Greenland will have much more tundra, less mountans and less grassland. Siberia will have less forest.

I don't want to allow cities on tundra because I want to prevent the AI city sprawl that we saw when that was possible.

I have not thought about Civ Specific Improvements, I have a lot of other things on my plate right now.

The English are getting another naval UU to help beef up their Age-of-Sail fleet, the Sloop-O-War, which is an upgrade from the Corvette. The highest that wooden ships will be able to upgrade will remain the Steam Frigate. I wish there was an either/or upgrade so you could decide whether you wanted to upgrade to the Steam frigate or the Ironclad.

 

[Kal-el]

Another important factor in determining tech rate is how many civs you are playing with. The more civs the faster the tech race.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Do you really need the minimum turns for techs at 3? That's my biggest problem. Once you have a pretty good civ set up you are learning techs every 3 turns. I haven't gone all the way through the tech tree yet, so maybe it is needed so that you get all the way through the tech tree before 2050 A.D. since there is alot of techs to research.

I turned it up so the minimum # of turns is higher. This slows down my research. The downside of this is that I will meet the minimum # of turns sooner, so I don't need science set so high. This, unfortunately, also devalues the purpose of building more libraries, universities, etc.

I don't worry about running out of time, as I can use a saved game editor to change the retirement date.

 

[Kal-el]

I would actually like to set the minimum to 1 or 2 turns. The optimal solution would be to find just the right balance of tech costs so that it is still necessary to build science buildings and to allocate tech to science in the latter stages. There should be some benefit in having a higher rate cap.