Dual leader first look Gorgo [Greece]

[Ikael]

Soooo the leak was right, we're having multiple leaders, and Gorgo will be the free sample that we will be getting of this old / new system. Interesting.

As for Gorgo herself, she has an awesome model (Firaxis animation team is outdoing theirselves with this game!), a truthly intriguing agenda, and a very underwhelming LUA. Thing is, I don't see myself paying for these leaders if they are going to affect gameplay on such a small, minimalistic scale.

No unique leader unit, building nor district nor anything, just an Aztecs redux unique, which is also quite weak compared to Pericle's LUA. Kinda meh-ish, they would need to buff leaders in general if they want to make them a desirable, sought after content, me thinks.

 

[Amrunril]

I like this implementation mechanically (both the general framework of multiple leaders and Gorgo's leader ability specifically). The fact that she has her own color scheme does make me a bit concerned about the possibility of interchanging leaders, though, and to me that's the biggest appeal of having distinct leader abilities. I guess colors could simply stick with leaders in all cases, but in my mind it makes much more sense for them to be tied to the civs, both aesthetically (thinking of the colors/emblem as a flag of sorts) and mechanically (because the civ is the source of three quarters of your unique features).

 

[Cywil]

I'll buy all the damn DLC's they sell, sight unseen.

Well, I'll buy selected DLCs - with new civs and new leaders only. I just don't use scenarios or extra maps.

 

[MistyRonin]

Thing is, I don't see myself paying for these leaders if they are going to affect gameplay on such a small, minimalistic scale.

My guess is that DLCs will include the leader with some other stuff, like scenarios and maps.

 

[randomwalker]

This confirmation of alternate leaders really gives me hope for possibly having a more modern leader for Norway, in addition to Hardrada, e.g. Einar Gerhardsen or Olav V. I still want to hear modern Norwegian spoken by a Civ leader, despite how amusing it was to hear the Viking units speak Norwegian in IV.

I wouldn't expect it, we are included only because the vikings were a force in european history. I'd more expect to see someone like Leif Eirikson (very much a viking, but focus on ocean exploration and trade rather than raiding).

Although IMO they should also consider Queen Margrete: a medieval female elected queen who united the 3 scandinavian countries and ruled them through her underage son. (OTOH Norwegians tend blame her for the loss of sovereignty, and only hardcore Paradox fans will even recognize the flag of the united Nordic kingdoms).

 

[DJ_Tanner]

Hannibal was not a king or anything, but he was probably the most important figure of Carthage in his time. Same is not true of Gorgo's importance to Sparts- even her husband was answerable to a council of which he was a member (so not exactly an absolute monarch), but she held no official power at all. Gorgo was an adviser to the council, which meant she was influential, but this influence was definitely limited- it is not like the council would have followed her advice on every issue- after all, they did send her husband off to fight the Persians with an inadequate army because they didn't think they could spare more.

Sure, but doesn't it make it all that more impressive that she was able to wield ANY influence when she should have had zero right to ANY power?

As usual someone else can state this best, from Plutarch: "Some foreign women on tour meet the Spartan Queen Gorgo. They tell her in all of their travels they have not encountered men ruled by women, expect at Sparta, to which Gorgo pithily replies: "That's because we alone give birth to real men.""

While it may have been the first (and possibly best) mic drop makes for a great anecdotal case(and for the time that is often as good as it gets) of her influence in the world as well as at home.

Yes, the shield comes from the US seal, but is that what first comes to mind when you think of it? Honestly I feel a Bald Eagle (if Civ 5's Carthage gets a friggin' elephant as its symbol then the US could have the same simplistic representation) or a conglomerate of stars (again, thirteen stars of the original stars and stripes flag would be good) would be more iconic, particularly for earlier leaders. Not saying the seal is bad, just that it feels more suited for contemporary America rather than early America.

The double-headed eagle's origins are rooted in the rest of Europe, this is true. It's also true that Russia is the only one to feature it in Civ 6, so that point is rather moot. The fact that the Russia we've gotten seems much more geared towards a Tsarist Russia seems to suggest that the current icon is more of a nod to the Romanovs than anything. If they wanted to go with a less Romanov-styled theme, they could have implemented other recognizable features of Russia as its icon - say, the Motherland Calls statue, or the Lavra's onion-top.

Honouring of generals aside, one of the biggest motivators behind Roman Republican society was a general hatred towards the concept of monarchy. To have a Republican leader - even one of the famed generals of its time - have a laurel as their icon would feel just a tad bit off, don't you think?

Not at all.

Again with those used in the coat of arms of the civ its hard to argue a time period. The coat of arms is chosen by the country to represent itself so they seem perfectly fitting. Further, for America the shield (the real one the icon is based on) does have the 13 stripes. It appears to have been removed so the icon reads better. As for Russia, the double eagle has represented Russia for almost its entire history. While it was used by the Tsars, basically the only time it wasn't used was for the (comparatively speaking) brief time they were the USSR. As for Rome, the laurel was and is so connected to Rome. Even the Roman Republic was greatly interested in victory (of which the laurel symbolizes). They too held triumphs, and moreover it is hard to find the equally iconic SPQR not encircled within a laurel.

 

[Jordanius of Belta]

Since Gorgo's Greece has a different color palette and a different capital than Pericles's Greece, will we have two Greek Civs in the same game? Wouldn't that be a bit awkward? Personally I prefer that if you choose Greece, the player can only choose one leader per game. Gorgo isn't her own Civ is she? Just an alternate leader for the same Greek empire right?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Since Gorgo's Greece has a different color palette and a different capital than Pericles's Greece, will we have two Greek Civs in the same game? Wouldn't that be a bit awkward? Personally I prefer that if you choose Greece, the player can only choose one leader per game. Gorgo isn't her own Civ is she? Just an alternate leader for the same Greek with civ right?

Yes, but you could always have duplicate civs. You can play a game with 6 Napoleons in CivV. This is like that but it probably can happen Randomly.
And Pericles v. Gorgo makes good sense (at least as much as gandhi v. Ashoka, Jefferson v. Roosevelt, or Peter the Great v. Trajan)

 

[Zaarin]

I hope when they say that both Gorgo and Pericles can show up in the same game, that doesn't happen randomly...

Anyway, I like Gorgo better than I expected to, but it doesn't feel very Spartan--the civ abilities are based too heavily on Athens for Gorgo's Greece to feel like Sparta.

 

[MarcoFurio]

Greece is one of the strongest civ in the game.
Gorgo's LUA is way better them Pericles'. It's much easier to defeat a unit than to be a CS suzerain, so she will make much more culture points than him.

 

[rastak]

I didn't notice the different background. That is going to be cool for modders as well as DLC leaders. I still prefer news civs over additional leaders.

 

[Brianstorm]

Good to see multiple leaders, bad to see one of the worst choices for leader in Civ history. Gorgo makes as much as sense as Prince Albert leading England, all because she is a woman who had a minor role in a somewhat recent movie? Very strange decision, hopefully will be modded out pronto.

 

[Grumpbeard]

Greece is one of the strongest civ in the game.
Gorgo's LUA is way better them Pericles'. It's much easier to defeat a unit than to be a CS suzerain, so she will make much more culture points than him.

Well we don't know if the amounts are the same. I am completely making these numbers up, but what if she gets 1 point per kill but you get 4 points per turn per city state?

 

[shyPiano]

We do know the numbers, actually.
Pericles gets, for each allied city-state, +5% Culture/turn.
Gorgo gets, for each unit killed, half of the killed unit's base strength as Culture.

+5% might not seem like much, but this could easily be +20% to +25% with only a few allies, so Pericle's culture output can be very large. As for Gorgo, she better have enough enemies around her with sufficiently big armies to compare.
Of course, Pericle's ability does also rely on your own culture output, while Gorgo gets flat Culture.

 

[Bkeela]

As for Gorgo herself, she has an awesome model (Firaxis animation team is outdoing theirselves with this game!)

She's well animated and all that, but she's not that attractive IMO. None of the Civ VI female leaders strike me as being particularly attractive. I'm not asking for giant bulbous mammary glands or anything like that, but at least Beyond Earth had Daoming, and Kavitha and Arshia weren't bad either. Might as well have a male leader if the female variant is ugly.

 

[DeutschDachs]

[QUOTE="As for Gorgo herself, she has an awesome model (Firaxis animation team is outdoing theirselves with this game!)"

She's well animated and all that, but she's not that attractive IMO. None of the Civ VI female leaders strike me as being particularly attractive. I'm not asking for giant bulbous mammary glands or anything like that, but at least Beyond Earth had Daoming, and Kavitha and Arshia weren't bad either. Might as well have a male leader if the female variant is ugly.[/QUOTE]

Yeesh I'm no sjw but that was actually pretty damn sexist lol. I mean I get not wanting Gorgo because we know next to nothing about her historically but the women don't need to be sexy (except maybe one like Cleopatra since it's part of her schtick)

 

[Bkeela]

Yeesh I'm no sjw but that was actually pretty damn sexist lol. I mean I get not wanting Gorgo because we know next to nothing about her historically but the women don't need to be sexy (except maybe one like Cleopatra since it's part of her schtick)

I was wondering if Firaxis intentionally made the female models ordinary looking so as to avoid SJW backlash.

Moderator Action: Please discuss gameplay and cease this line of discussion. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[joncnunn]

What I'm mostly thinking is how exploitable Gorgo's historic leader agenda is.

Conquer an AI city; force them to also give you something; even 1 gold. Sit back and watch AI Gorgo denounce that AI.

Even funnier if AI Gorgo goes to war herself and forces that AI to give her something for peace.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

We do know the numbers, actually.
Pericles gets, for each allied city-state, +5% Culture/turn.
Gorgo gets, for each unit killed, half of the killed unit's base strength as Culture.

+5% might not seem like much, but this could easily be +20% to +25% with only a few allies, so Pericle's culture output can be very large. As for Gorgo, she better have enough enemies around her with sufficiently big armies to compare.
Of course, Pericle's ability does also rely on your own culture output, while Gorgo gets flat Culture.

Yeah, the difference is between an unreliable big flat bonus or a reliable but smaller per turn bonus. Gorgo gets a big lump sum of culture but it is less reliable since it depends on being able to kill an enemy unit. If there are not enough enemy units to kill, her source of culture will dry out. Pericles gets a smaller bonus but it is much more reliable. He just needs to stay a suzerain with a city state and the culture will roll in every turn. It will really depend on the game whether Pericles or Gorgo will get more culture.

 

[MarcosQuadros]

I was wondering if they did Philip and Gilgamesh that way to please the sjws as well...




Moderator Action: Enough discussion of SJW's. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889