Dual leader first look Gorgo [Greece]

[Jabulani]

Instead of the cosmetic dual leader with tiny gameplay differences I would have preferred a dual unit, that would have allowed a much wider tactical scenario.

The cut of the stealth bomber is causing depression in me, I need to recover from that and it ain't a quick one this time I'm afraid

 

[Alextheglorious]

So if Gorgo goes to war with Gilgamesh does either of them get culture when the other kills a stack?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Not that it's a big deal either way, but I'd rather the icons be the same for different leaders of the same Civ. I'm not sure you're gaining anything by making them different, and makes it needlessly more complicated. Consistent icons will make the civs more recognizable at a glance.

 

[Scaramanga]

So if Gorgo goes to war with Gilgamesh does either of them get culture when the other kills a stack?

I think it's only XP and pillage yields.

 

[Haggbart]

This confirmation of alternate leaders really gives me hope for possibly having a more modern leader for Norway, in addition to Hardrada, e.g. Einar Gerhardsen or Olav V. I still want to hear modern Norwegian spoken by a Civ leader, despite how amusing it was to hear the Viking units speak Norwegian in IV.

I'm not sure I want a modern norwegian leader, there are so many other interesting options out there for other civs

 

[cairnsy44]

I think she looks a bit like Celine Dion.
I also hope that the official alternate American leader is not Washington. Would prefer Lincoln or Jefferson in that order.

 

[Josephias]

I do think that a lot of the current icons - as you said, the Bull, the Iron Cross, etc. - fit more for he civ than the leader themselves, but I think that would just make it more poignant and distinguishing for DLC leaders to have their own icons.

And besides, there's no reason why some leaders can't share the same icons; still, I think certain leaders really should have different icons, considering their backgrounds and the time periods in which they ruled.

I'm also going to assume some of the icons for leaders we've seen so far are more fitting for the civ than the leader because Firaxis wanted to hint at but hide the Gorgo reveal. Aachen being Germany's capital was a big hint, but to have given Frederick his own icon would be too big a giveaway for multiple leaders.

I'm afraid we are not seeing multiple icons due to the "generic" cases described above. Unless a relevant rework is done on existing civilization icons (however, maybe it is the case).

But, for me, it makes no sense to give Gorgo the Lambda if Pericles keeps the generic Omega. It would make sense, on the other hand, to have Pericles switched to the Athenian Owl if the Lambda symbol is added. Same cases could be argued for other civs as well (Maybe Isabella's spain can use the castle, but then Philipp needs the burgundian cross; or Frederick using the HRE eagle if additional German leaders are added).

Makes least sense when Civ icons are not that generic (the Romanov eagle you comment above). But in that case, ¿maybe we could expect a Soviet civ, radically different from Imperial Russia?

 

[DJ_Tanner]

I disagree - it would be much better for the civ icon to change depending on the leader, as that could, in its own way, reflect the period of that civs history well. For example, if America were to receive Washington, Jefferson, or any other "founding father" as a leader, it'd be more fitting to give America the thirteen stars of the original flag as an icon instead of the much more contemporary shield icon that you'd see on highways.

Similarly, some icons wouldn't make sense for some leaders to have. In Russia, for example, it wouldn't make sense for the civ to retain the Romanov crest as its icon for leaders past 1917, no? Or for pre-imperial Roman leaders, the crown of a Roman emperor wouldn't be very fitting.

Which is why the civ icon should be for the civ. In fact all your examples are prefect reasons NOT to change icons. The shield for America comes from the Great Seal and is on the coat of arms, it has been in use since the inception of the country. The Double-Headed Eagle, which has roots in many countries is also a part of the coat of arms of Russia and is a major symbol far beyond the Romanovs, and the laurel of the Rome is central to the idea of Rome, while the were worn during a triumph this was done to denote the general as "king for a day" which is why they worn the regalia that was common to the ancient Roman monarchy.

 

[Manifold]

Gorgo is nice, nice art and cool graphic even without snakes in her hair and she will be one of my favorite opponent I will change her LUA with that from Montezuma. That fits better to both. Montezuma gets culture from killing and Gorgo gets helots.

Also I ask myself, why are nearly all female leaders in Civ6 the most aggressive ones? now we have on the first hand Peter the grocer, Saladin the bookworm... and on the other hand Katie the poisoner, bloodthirsty Tomyris and bloodthirstiness Gorgo. What do the storyteller want to tell us?????Hillary the most powerful person in the world

I would love to give this LH a black dress. She would be a lovely Persephone, queen of hell with the UU
hell Hung

 

[shyPiano]

So they finally announced Gorgo, alongside the MAJOR SELLING POINT of multiple leaders per civilization (seriously, this is rather big, even in terms of modding - weird it took them this long).
And she looks AMAZING! Easily my favorite female leader, with Cleopatra as a close second.

Gorgo and Pericles side by side.
Extra Gorgo.

And, really, I'm glad multiple leaders are back - I thought it worked great in Civ IV, and since Leader Screens shouldn't take as many resources as with Civ V (I think), I think we can still expect a similar amount of civilizations by the end of this game's cycle.

Here's some other things I noticed:
The background is also different, which is interesting. I guess it does allow for the leaders to better fit their environment, but there could also be fun stuff they could do with unrestricted leaders if backgrounds were civ dependent, and not leader dependent. Could the music be different too?
The civilizations colors are also different, which is very bizarre... I don't like this, since the colors, I feel, are connected to the civilization, and not the leader - this was how Civ IV worked. And both color schemes shown in the video are horrible - the blue-on-red is far too similar to England to the point where I thought it was England at first, and the white-on-grey was just lifeless and neutral (though I'd still prefer it to the former). I would keep Greece's colors, but if they really wanted to change them, well... The best choice for them would actually be Scythia's colors, but they could pick an black-on-orange, based on old Greek vases. The question does remain: is the icon different too? Could this mean that both Gorgo and Pericles could be randomly selected (unlike Civ IV)?
Finally, the capital is different too. This is great! I like it that the capital is based on the leader, makes a lot of sense! Now the question is - can Pericles found Sparta? Can Gorgo found Athens? Do they share a city-list? If they both are in the game, fo they eat each other's choices for city names?

 

[Jabulani]

I think she looks a bit like Celine Dion.

Lol

The next dlc leader is supposed to be Bjork shaped

 

[Grumpbeard]

Lol

The next dlc leader is supposed to be Bjork shaped

Which will be weird when it Thomas Jefferson.

 

[mjhousto]

I also hope that the official alternate American leader is not Washington. Would prefer Lincoln or Jefferson in that order.

With the ability to play both leaders of a civilization in the same game they may have to limit who they can choose as alternate leaders. A Spartan leader works for Greece since it makes sense to change the capital city from Athens to Sparta. An alternate American leader would need to be one that fits with a capital other than Washington. My guess would be a revolutionary leader (Washington or Franklin) with a capital in New York or Philidelphia.

 

[SMcM]

First, many seem to think leader does not mean ruler. There have been plenty of important and influential people that led and had major sway over their countrymen without having rule over them(I realize you didn't specifically say that but saying the de-facto leader does imply it and many that echo your point have).

Being heavily influential across multiple regimes has a lasting and significant impact. She was involved in statecraft and heavily relied on by a ruler. This would have made her both a leader and symbol of Sparta (and to some extent all women) during her time. Stating that someone must be the leader to be a leader isn't fair. 'Leading' really isn't equal in civ. I mean look at a ruler with basically absolute power kings, sultans, pharaohs, etc. All wielded far more power than say any President or Prime Minster. So is a key advisor in the rule of one of those absolutes power structures really all that different then say an American President who can only 'advise' or push ideas they hope the Congress/Senate will enact it? Ruler is an easy way to see the influence of the individual but is not and has not been the only factor.

Off the top of my head we have seen those that only had influence over their countrymen/world but never had enforceable power:
Gandhi
Joan of Arc
Hannibal
The host of mythological figures in Civ II

Hannibal was not a king or anything, but he was probably the most important figure of Carthage in his time. Same is not true of Gorgo's importance to Sparts- even her husband was answerable to a council of which he was a member (so not exactly an absolute monarch), but she held no official power at all. Gorgo was an adviser to the council, which meant she was influential, but this influence was definitely limited- it is not like the council would have followed her advice on every issue- after all, they did send her husband off to fight the Persians with an inadequate army because they didn't think they could spare more.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Hannibal was not a king or anything, but he was probably the most important figure of Carthage in his time. Same is not true of Gorgo's importance to Sparts- even her husband was answerable to a council of which he was a member (so not exactly an absolute monarch), but she held no official power at all. Gorgo was an adviser to the council, which meant she was influential, but this influence was definitely limited- it is not like the council would have followed her advice on every issue- after all, they did send her husband off to fight the Persians with an inadequate army because they didn't think they could spare more.

weep more, watching you cry is fun

Moderator Action: Please do not flame other members. leif.
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[Nightsong]

I'm honestly not even going to worry about the civilization border colors at this point. In almost every single build of the game we have seen across the first looks, livestreams and lets play videos, the border colors for the various civilizations have been changed or tweaked. It could be that the border colors are still being worked on and will get a final pass right before launch. Heck, the Spartan colors changed through the video... at the beginning the color of the Spartan Greek icons above the unit heads was maroon but by the middle - end of the video, they were light grey / white (the point when they captured the city).

 

[SpaceCommunist]

I'm afraid we are not seeing multiple icons due to the "generic" cases described above. Unless a relevant rework is done on existing civilization icons (however, maybe it is the case).

But, for me, it makes no sense to give Gorgo the Lambda if Pericles keeps the generic Omega. It would make sense, on the other hand, to have Pericles switched to the Athenian Owl if the Lambda symbol is added. Same cases could be argued for other civs as well (Maybe Isabella's spain can use the castle, but then Philipp needs the burgundian cross; or Frederick using the HRE eagle if additional German leaders are added).

Makes least sense when Civ icons are not that generic (the Romanov eagle you comment above). But in that case, ¿maybe we could expect a Soviet civ, radically different from Imperial Russia?

We could potentially see icon changes in the future if that's the case.

I'd also argue that for leaders that had a particularly big personality and really dominated their nation during their lifetime (i.e. Napoleon), then that would almost certailny warrant a leader-specific icon.

As for a Soviet civ, I feel like that's too closely tied to Russia itself to make it into a separate civ. With the introduction of Gorgo, this means we can focus on civs from different points in their history, so I think just as we can have an Athenian Greece and a Spartan Greece, so too could we have an Imperial Russia and a Soviet Russia (provided the civ gets some reworks to its uniques, but that's a completely different discussion ).

Which is why the civ icon should be for the civ. In fact all your examples are prefect reasons NOT to change icons. The shield for America comes from the Great Seal and is on the coat of arms, it has been in use since the inception of the country. The Double-Headed Eagle, which has roots in many countries is also a part of the coat of arms of Russia and is a major symbol far beyond the Romanovs, and the laurel of the Rome is central to the idea of Rome, while the were worn during a triumph this was done to denote the general as "king for a day" which is why they worn the regalia that was common to the ancient Roman monarchy.

Yes, the shield comes from the US seal, but is that what first comes to mind when you think of it? Honestly I feel a Bald Eagle (if Civ 5's Carthage gets a friggin' elephant as its symbol then the US could have the same simplistic representation) or a conglomerate of stars (again, thirteen stars of the original stars and stripes flag would be good) would be more iconic, particularly for earlier leaders. Not saying the seal is bad, just that it feels more suited for contemporary America rather than early America.

The double-headed eagle's origins are rooted in the rest of Europe, this is true. It's also true that Russia is the only one to feature it in Civ 6, so that point is rather moot. The fact that the Russia we've gotten seems much more geared towards a Tsarist Russia seems to suggest that the current icon is more of a nod to the Romanovs than anything. If they wanted to go with a less Romanov-styled theme, they could have implemented other recognizable features of Russia as its icon - say, the Motherland Calls statue, or the Lavra's onion-top.

Honouring of generals aside, one of the biggest motivators behind Roman Republican society was a general hatred towards the concept of monarchy. To have a Republican leader - even one of the famed generals of its time - have a laurel as their icon would feel just a tad bit off, don't you think?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If I were to pick an icon for Republican Rome, it might simply be SPQR.

 

[Josephias]

I'm honestly not even going to worry about the civilization border colors at this point. In almost every single build of the game we have seen across the first looks, livestreams and lets play videos, the border colors for the various civilizations have been changed or tweaked. It could be that the border colors are still being worked on and will get a final pass right before launch. Heck, the Spartan colors changed through the video... at the beginning the color of the Spartan Greek icons above the unit heads was maroon but by the middle - end of the video, they were light grey / white (the point when they captured the city).

I guess light-grey - white color is the "Neutral" color - the city has it until you take ownersip of it in the keep/raze menu. Therefore, not Sparta's Greece one.

 

[rastak]

It's Sid Meier. It's Civ. It's first new Civ in years. I'll buy all the damn DLC's they sell, sight unseen. God knows I've blown far more than that would cost on numerous games I played once and never booted again. This is the best entertainment value out there for my money. Speaking only for myself of course.

Leaving in a minute to take my wife and my father to a steakhouse. Probably will drop a hundred and fiddy so DLC is cheap in comparison. I always seem to make this comparison but it's true.