Dunbarcracy

Tahuti

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Perhaps some of you guys are familiar with the dunbar number. In case you aren't, the dunbar number is the amount of people you can humanly maintain stable social relationships with, which is usually placed between 150 and 230 people. Perhaps it is possible for government to be significantly less bureaucratic if this rule is consistently applied in politics.

For example, why shouldn't have legislative councils existing of about 75 representatives with each representative chosen by a constituency of about 75 people as well? And if a country is larger than 75*75 inhabitants, why not have representatives be chosen by an electoral council for each representative, consisting of 75 people. For larger states, the 75 people of the electoral council can be chosen be chosen by further electoral councils for each representative consisting of 75 electors as well, and so forth.

Of course, none of this will probably come into fruition, but it is intended as a thought experiment to discuss.
 
This makes sense. I knew of the figure, but I didn't know (or remember) it was called the Dunbar number.
 
So the global population of 7 billion should be represented by a global council of 3 members, each with 75 subordinate, transnational governments, each with 75 constituent nations of 31m people, subdivided into 75 states of 422,000 people, with each 5,625-citizen ward being represented by 75 ward-leaders on the state council, and with each ward having 1 ward-councillor representing 75 people.

Within a nation of 31m people, each citizen has 4 levels of separation between themselves and their national leader. At present, in my nation (of 60m people, but also in nations of 31m people), each citizen has 2 levels of separation between myself and my national leader (Me --> MP --> PM). I'm not sure I'd be happy with doubling the number of layers of bureaucracy in government. I prefer that city-level authorities don't directly report into national authorities. Though I would prefer that cities had more power to raise taxes and such, I don't like the idea that city councillors would end up with legislative power nationally. There's no good reason for the people who are in charge of zoning laws in Birmingham to have legislative power over immigration in London.
 
Well if you put it like that, Mr M, it certainly looks kind of dumb.

But, your 2 levels of separation only look better. In practice your connection to the PM via your MP is extremely tenuous. I presume you go along to constituency surgeries and write to your MP on a regular basis. But how much influence do you really have?

The OP proposal is interesting in that it looks like a true delegative democracy.

In practice, there are these loose associations already in place. From the household level, through neighbourhood and residents associations, up through local council wards and town councils, through county council and MP constituencies, various (potential) regional organizations, up to national Parliaments and including interest and pressure groups. Then supranational organizations.

All good. Potentially.
 
But my point is that, at present, there are two branches of power: one via local councillors => city/ county council, and the other via MPs => parliament. The first branch, of local councillors, is solely about administrating their local area: it's entirely executive, and serves no legislative function. Local councillors are not subordinate to MPs, and they are accountable to the people (and their parties), rather than MPs or the PM. The 2nd branch though is about national legislation: MPs vote on laws, and while the executive ("the government") comprises MPs that sit in parliament, that executive is concerned with national issues. Legislature might affect directly or indirectly what councillors are allowed to do, but the councillors aren't subordinate to MPs or parliament, and MPs and parliament have no executive power on local councils.

They're two separate bits of the system, in short.

In Dunbarcracy, they would be two layers of the same system. Local councillors would be subordinate to MPs that sit in national legislative chambers. Local councillors would report in to those MPs. MPs would therefore have oversight authority over local councillors, and thus a direct influence on local administration. Similarly, because MPs are now beholden to councillors (who are the people who generate votes for MPs), councillors will have (some, diluted) legislative power nationally. Hence a councillor who is responsible for collecting rubbish in Birmingham will have legislative power over taxes nationally. They will have the ability to vote on whether to go to war. I don't think people who administer cities -- and do a good job of it -- are necessarily the right people to influence legislation nationally. I like that I vote for councillors on the basis of their performance as councillors, and MPs on the basis of their performance as legislators. I don't want to vote for a councillor who is excellent at keeping the roads clean only to find out later that he is pro-War or something, and he has influenced his superior MP to vote in favour of unilateral action in Mali.

In short, people who are good at administration aren't necessarily good at legislation, and vice versa. Dunbarcracy demands that administrators are the same as legislators, which I think is not a good idea.
 
Well if you put it like that, Mr M, it certainly looks kind of dumb.

But, your 2 levels of separation only look better. In practice your connection to the PM via your MP is extremely tenuous. I presume you go along to constituency surgeries and write to your MP on a regular basis. But how much influence do you really have?

In this system it would be more akin to if you told your dad what you wanted the MP to do and asked him to petition the MP for you. Sure in today's world our connection and influence with MPs is marginalized, but under this system it would be marginalized even further.
 
Yeah and ultimately, if there are 60 million people in your country, your vote is going to be diluted by 60 million parts no matter how you organise it. Unless local levels of executive government get more power, there's always going to be an upper limit on how much influence you have on your country as a whole.
 
In short, people who are good at administration aren't necessarily good at legislation, and vice versa. Dunbarcracy demands that administrators are the same as legislators, which I think is not a good idea.
I see. This seems to be the crux of the matter.

So this would seem to indicate a division between executive and legislature is a good thing.

How come the UK hasn't got a Presidential system then? To what extent is the PM and the cabinet separate from Parliament?

And why do you think administrators can't be good legislators? Are you thinking in terms of personality types here?
 
The PM and his cabinet are in the Parliament, each serving as a Minister of the Crown and Member of Parliament of a constituency.
 
I really can´t see how any of this would reduce bureaucracy. Or any other upsides such a system would have. Or how would we, in practice, achieve the apparent intent of actually limiting every representative's social circle to 150 people. Or why would we even want to.
 
Dunbarcracy, ...amount of people you can humanly maintain stable social relationships with...

...applied in politics.

So, a government where it would be a requirement that the office holders have a social relationship with every constituent? That's actually kind of interesting. It would certainly maintain the appearance of inclusiveness.

Politics. Hmnn... The founding fathers here in America wrote the Constitution having failed to anticipate the natural evolution of political parties, despite the fact that they were Engishmen - with their Torries and their Whigs and their rotten burroughs. Within the first generation (Adams/Jefferson) there were already Federalists and Republicans (ie, Democrats), scheming and conniving to twist the Constitution to their advantage. I suspect Dunbarcracy would be no different. The inevitable growth of partisan politics (as opposed to government) will always subvert any good intentions. Just look at Communism.
 
I really can´t see how any of this would reduce bureaucracy. Or any other upsides such a system would have. Or how would we, in practice, achieve the apparent intent of actually limiting every representative's social circle to 150 people. Or why would we even want to.

I think that's the point of the Dunbar number. That ~150 is the natural limit of people that you can interact with in any meaningful way. It would seem to be the size of community we've evolved to be able to handle.

Any more and it's just like faces in a crowd.
 
if its about interacting within the dunbar number just make sure you get to talk with your local councilor, mayor, state mp,state senator,federal mp,federal senator,to this add a couple of state and federal ministers,all who would know me by my first name.
and of course the PM ( I've spoken to 3, met 6)and the state governor and the federal governor general, all of whom would not remember my name

So if your interested in politics 15-20 people is all you need leaving between 130-230 slots for family and general rif raf

hardly seems worth adopting the OP's system, where only one of the power brokers needs to know you
 
So, a government where it would be a requirement that the office holders have a social relationship with every constituent? That's actually kind of interesting. It would certainly maintain the appearance of inclusiveness.

Patronage?
 
Right, Graffito. It's all about networking. Who you know and who knows you.
 
The idea seems like a good one to strive for, but I wonder how tiny an area of NYC would it take to make 75 people? It would make the bureaucracy of a dense city government even more horrendous than it already is.
 
Do we have any objections to nested councils that don't rely on the assumption that professionalised, representative government is the only possible form of democratic organisation in this or any other universe? It's just that I'm not really seeing any here.
 
I see. This seems to be the crux of the matter.

So this would seem to indicate a division between executive and legislature is a good thing.
No, that's not quite what I'm getting at. "The executive" isn't one monolithic thing that does the same thing at all levels of government; the executive at a national level is VERY different to the executive at a local level. The responsibilities of city councillors are limited not only by the size of their city but also by the nature of their responsibilities. A city councillor will be concerned with the administration of healthcare, ensuring that hospitals are run efficiently, that their bills are paid, that they are fully staffed, etc. In other words, they will be concerned with the day to day running of their hospitals, in accordance with the law, common practice, and healthcare policy. A government minister in the Health department will be concerned not with the day to day running, but with matters of healthcare policy. This is, partly, a legislative role, but also an executive role: if a Health minister wants to change hiring policies, so that nurses are recruited in a differently, then it may require legislative changes, but is in fact an executive decision. The job of a Health minister is to decide how hospitals should hire nurses; the job of a local councillor is to ensure that hospitals in their city are hiring nurses in the way prescribed by health ministers.

I realise now that this is not a very good example, since hospitals are actually administered by independent trusts, not by city councillors. But a similar thing happens in areas where local councillors do have administrative oversight, such as education, or direct control, such as town planning. Somebody who is good at administering a school might not be good at deciding how a school should be administered. This becomes obvious when you see how many engineers, say, get promoted to management positions because they are good engineers, only to end up being terrible managers: the key attributes for a good engineer are different from the key attributes of a good manager. Similarly, the attributes that I think are good in local councillors are not necessarily attributes that I think are good in Westminster.

Now, having said all this, I do realise that I earlier said that good administrators are not necessarily good legislators. What I mean by this is that legislators at a national level are concerned with policy; the executive at a national level is concerned with policy; but the administrators at a local level are not concerned with policy. The skill-sets for national level legislators are very similar to the skill-sets for national level executors.

This isn't always true, mind you. There are plenty of people who might be good at formulating policy, but who are terrible at delivering it. Such as Andrew Lansley. But I don't think it's such a big deal: the executive of the UK government is, what, 20-odd cabinet ministers, each with 3-4 ministers beneath them. Out of a country of 60m people, I'm sure we can muster 80 people who are good at both formulating policy and delivering it.

Well, you'd hope so wouldn't you.

And why do you think administrators can't be good legislators? Are you thinking in terms of personality types here?
I don't think I used the word "can't". I said "not necessarily", and it's because they require different skill-sets. For Dunbarcracy to work, administrators would HAVE to be good legislators ("policy-formulators" might be a better term). I'd have to limit my votes to people who are both good administrators and good policy-formulators. And I'd have to do that on a local level, picking from just 74 other people....... Chances of finding a decent representative are pretty slim.
 
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