Dune University 1

[ChrisAdams3997]

The threshold is a string ('PLEASED', etc.) not a number.

which can be very simply changed back into a number I'm pretty sure with a quick check to the leader info . This I have no reason to believe would be very difficult.

 

[Ahriman]

which can be very simply changed back into a number I'm pretty sure with a quick check to the leader info . This I have no reason to believe would be very difficult

The point is though that you don't many degrees of freedom. Friendly, Pleased, .... there are only 6 levels of relationship..

Its not like a scale from 1 to 20, where you can make small incremental changes.

Unless you think you can actually change them directly into relationship modifiers, where you can set them at +4 or +5 or +6?
But even then I think I'd leave them alone; I like the current design where some factions trade techs and others don't. I'd prefer a mechanism like you suggest where they get wary about trading with someone who is ahead of them.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

The point is though that you don't many degrees of freedom. Friendly, Pleased, .... there are only 6 levels of relationship..

I'll have to check the exact way it happens, but more or less for each leader, getting to pleased for instance requires so many '+' diplo points, which is what I was refering to. By referencing that leader 'x' needs +12 to be 'pleased', we can represent 'pleased' as 12 then scale/add/subtract from that. I've only passed over this stuff in the code before so details may vary, but that's the just of it.

I'd prefer a mechanism like you suggest where they get wary about trading with someone who is ahead of them.

I'd also lean that way if we do anything.

 

[Jester Fool]

turnset 3; part 1 (~turn 203) :

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I am feeling generous so this trade goes down. Maybe not. I really just need the money to buy homeworld units.

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My block city will be the rallying point for my emerging army. Since Roma has Chemical Troopers (+100% vs guardsman), I don't bother with Heavy Troopers.

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Master Scytale beats me in building The Order of Mentats. No worries. I just switch to building Guild Research Facility which IMO, is actually the better of the two (with a lot of spice of course).

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Hey Margot! My map for yours...you betcha!

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The capital (thanks to the Great Techman) is done with Guild Research Facility and will now work on a space port.

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The first Mentat is built. All three of the Mentats I build will be military specialists and will reside in my three main military production cities (which were chosen because they have the highest hammer output).

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Water of Life is the next tech to be researched. I gotta get me some spice orgy action going (it is that good).

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Paul demands Protected Trade. Sure buddy, have at it. Enjoy the peace while you can.

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Might as well. Ix works in mysterious ways (and Paul really does spend too much time wandering the sand dunes).

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Future Military HQ site.

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The capital on turn 198.

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A most beneficial trade I make with the Bene Gesserit. The next trade is even better. Friendly relations FTW!

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Since Desert Industry allows Ixian Skunkworks to be built, the build queue for Jizran Pass needs adjustment.

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Archduke Armand has something I want. My goal is to keep building good relations with him.

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I trade Culture of Dune to the Bene Tleilax for gold. I am laughing all the way to the bank.

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Yes. We are first to Ablative Shields (never in doubt though) and receive the free Great Burseg. Research path will be Air Power.

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Gearing up for military production, I use the free Great Burseg to build a Military Academy in Al Basit.

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At least until the war (which is closer than she knows), open borders is just fine.

 

[Ahriman]

I'll have to check the exact way it happens, but more or less for each leader, getting to pleased for instance requires so many '+' diplo points, which is what I was refering to. By referencing that leader 'x' needs +12 to be 'pleased', we can represent 'pleased' as 12 then scale/add/subtract from that.

Right, this is what I thought you meant. It's possible, but I think it would be better to have situational AI changes (make them less willing to trade with someone who is significantly ahead in tech) rather than absolute AI changes (make them less willing to trade at higher difficulty level).
But either of these would still probably require a string -> number conversion.

 

[Ahriman]

Since Roma has Chemical Troopers (+100% vs guardsman), I don't bother with Heavy Troopers.

Chem troopers are low strength, they will still lose badly vs Heavy Troopers. They are a hardcounter for master guardsmen.
I'm not saying you need heavy troopers, I'm just saying chem troopers aren't a reason not to get them.

 

[Jester Fool]

Chem troopers are low strength

6 to be exact. However, vs guardsman they are 12. 10 (Heavy Trooper) < 12 (Chem), hence not going to be useful vs Chem Troopers. Chemical Troopers are one of the best UU in the game. The appropriate counter (in this case) is the crawler mech (and I also had a walker).

 

[Ahriman]

They are?
I thought they were strength 4, +100%.
Maybe we changed them because we thought they were a bit weak, I know that was on the to-do list. They used to be strength 4. They feel like they might be a bit strong if they are strength 6 and +100%. I'd probably bump them down to strength 5.
But yes, crawlers and walks work fine here.

 

[Jester Fool]

They feel like they might be a bit strong if they are strength 6 and +100%

Oh it gets worse. They are also +120% vs melee. However, I DO NOT want the stats to be changed (that would only hurt the AI). Question - why did JF want good relations with House Ordos? Answer - Chemical Troopers will wreck your day (unless you can build crawlers that is ). A good player will try and get good relations with House Ordos since an early DOW by them can possibly be devastating.

 

[Ahriman]

Oh it gets worse. They are also +120% vs melee.

This was not intended. They are replacing grenade troopers, which are strength 6 +50% vs melee, and they have become strength 6 +100% vs guardsmen +120% vs melee?
That is way too strong.
Make them strength 5, +100% vs melee, +100% vs guardsmen. They're supposed to be a super-specialist, but they shouldn't be able to beat shield troopers and heavy troopers.

However, I DO NOT want the stats to be changed (that would only hurt the AI).

I don't understand what you mean here.
With their current stats they seem too strong, and they would be utterly devastating in the hands of a human player, particularly since the AI wouldn't know how to counter them. Much better than any other UU in the game.
Weakening them would weaken both an AI and a human Ordos player, but I think that is probably as it should be. Otherwise you could just get chem troopers and missile troopers and then ignore military techs for a long time.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

They are 5 str +100% vs. guardsmen and melee for the record , straight from the xml, and work quite well as is.

 

[Jester Fool]

They are 5 str +100% vs. guardsmen and melee for the record , straight from the xml, and work quite well as is.

Boy I feel stupid. Must have mixed them up with Grenade Troopers (which are str 6).

 

[Jester Fool]

turnset 3; part 2 (~turn 212) :

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There is absolutely no reason to give into Paul's demand. First of all, I am relying on spice production for a big part of my research capacity. IF I switched to Arrakis Paradise, not only would I lose any spice silos that have been built (and spice would disappear quicker), but I would also incurr a -4 diplo hit with the remaining AI factions (all of whom are in Arrakis Spice). Sorry Paul..surely you must be joking.

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I plan on growing my cities as much as I possibly can. I need all the health resources I can get so I do this trade with Master Scytale. As a side benefit, trading resources with an AI will also help to build diplo relations with them. Win-win.

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Ha! Roma declares war on Paul. I told you (Paul), all the cool civs are not running Arrakis Paradise. Throw in the fact that Paul follows Shai Halud and Roma does not, Paul was pretty much going to be her worst enemy. The Bene Gesserit (and Bene Tleilax) are wisely following Arrakis Spice, otherwise they too might feel her wrath. Roma tends to be a fairly active warmonger (as I found out earlier in the game).

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Arrakis Tamed allows key economy boosting buildings (e.g. dew extractor for increased health and the qanat for +15% water). Spice purifiers are nice but are an expensive building (hammer wise) so I will not be building any in the short term. I do not hesitate to make this trade with Margot.

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Meanwhile, the Fremen capture Cave of Riches from Ecaz and I get a Great Techman in the capital. Spice Orgy increases the length of golden ages (from the normal 10 turns to 15 glorious turns) and also starts a golden age. I want to start building offensive units soon (under Kanly) so I use the Great Techman right away to help speed the construction of Spice Orgy. To help compensate for the slower unit build times (under Kanly), golden ages will be a key component of my strategy to overwhelm the AIs.

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The research path I will follow. I might need to change it based on game conditions, but for now this will do.

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The tech race so far. If I could not already build crawlers (which are superior to hardened bladesman) I would probably want to research Harsh Conditioning (which allows them to be built). Harsh Conditioning also allows Mudir Nayah's Dungeon (-100% war weariness/-25% war weariness in all cities). I normally would want to build this wonder, but really don't have a city free to do so since my high hammer cities will be focusing on military production real soon. Rocketry is not needed right now and I am hoping to get it in trade once some more AIs discover it.

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I pay a steep price for Arrakis Transformation since the aquabore is the best water improvement in the game for groundwater resources (which I have several off). If I was pursing a terraforming victory I would have prioritized this technology (meaning self-researched). Since I am not, trading for it is IMO better strategy. My cities already have surplus water and I really can't afford to build additional health buildings just yet as I want to attack Roma soon (payback for her earlier treachery).

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Ecaz loses Coanua to the Fremen and the Bene Tleilax take a smuggler city. A note on space ports - they allow you to airlift units (1 per turn) to friendly cities as well as giving +1 trade route/+25% trade route yield in the city they are built in. The economic bonus is nice, but the strategic value they provide is really what makes them a priority build. I will use them to funnel troops to captured cities (once war begins) and also to shore up my own cities defenses if I come under attack by an AI.

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Harmah Lookout is building spotter control since I am working desert tiles. Once built, the city will get +4 and +4 which makes this building a good ROI. Ixian skunkworks give +10% hammers and science, as well as halving the upgrade cost of units stationed in the city, so they are being built while I wait to changes civics (after Spice Orgy is built).

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I am quite shocked that I get to Academies first. The Bene Gesserit, from my experience at least, normally get to Academies first. Since I am playing Ix, I didn't beeline this technology (but will definitely try to found Thinking Machines - mainly for the role playing aspect) but do need universities to improve my science rate. I will also want to build University of Arrakis once enough universities are built. Anyway, time to spread Qizarate to all of my cities. My missionaries head out on foot, which is funny considering I could airlift them instead starting next turn. A misplay, but whatever. I do not convert to Qizarate because, this game at least, it makes more sense to avoid the diplo penalty I would get with the AIs by having a religion different from them. The wise move here is to maintain good relations with Margot since she is the main threat to Ixian domination. I would adopt Shai Halud (for the diplo bonus with Margot) but can't since none of my cities have it. The logical choice remains to stay in no state religion.

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Sorry Rabban. He only has four cities and is far behind in tech. IMO, refusing his demand for Ablative Shields (which leads to Personal Shields{allows shield fighters to be built}) is the smart move.

 

[Jester Fool]

turnset 3; part 3 (~turn 214) :

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The capital is going to build the last Mentat and then build a university before starting on crawlers. My main offensive unit for the first war will be crawlers since they bypass city building defenses and are fairly cheap to build. As they are built, I will airlift them to my block city in preparation for the attack on Roma.

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Many of the tech trades I have made in the game, including this one, are mainly for the diplo benefit. Although I could research Harsh Conditioning easily enough, trading away Sandworms won't hurt me since it doesn't allow any military units which could be used against me.

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Paul demands that I stop trading with the Archduke. I would gain absolutely nothing if I did so. I refuse of course. Face it Paul, Ix is destined to be your enemy.

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Beast Rabban declares war on the Bene Gesserit. Doesn't seem like a smart thing to do since she is more powerful than him and has six more cities than he has. Good luck with that Rabban - you're going to need it.

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The build queue in Al Basit. Qizarate temples reduce maintenance by 30% as well as increase happiness by +1. I will want them in all my cities eventually. This city will also produce crawlers once I start producing military units.

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Cave of Riches has been captured (again?) by the Fremen. Apparently, Ecaz took back their city and I missed it. Doesn't affect me so no worries there.

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Notice the diplo bonuses I am getting with the Bene Gesserit and House Ecaz. Trading tech to an AI for gold will normally (although not always) give you a bonus to diplo for being "fair and forthright". Trading techs to an AI (for tech) will by the same token, usually give a bonus to diplo for having "shared your technological discoveries with us". Another good way to boost AI relations is to adopt their favorite civic. In this case, Meritocracy (Bene Gesserit) and Free Trade (House Ecaz).

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I make the switch to Kanly and Free Trade. Harmah Lookout will build the light carryalls that I will use to transport my invasion forces.

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With Kanly, barracks and Mentats (with Sapho Juice contract), my military units will have three promotions when built in my military production cities. Although other cities will build some units, the bulk of my forces will come from just the three cities.

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I guess Beast Rabban knew what he was doing since he captures one of Margot Fenring's cities. It has to be a polar city but I don't know for sure.

Edit : Here is the savegame if anybody is interested : View attachment du1-endturnset3.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Jester Fool]

I have three more turnsets to post. Here is a teaser screenshot :

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Should I continue posting?

 

[Ahriman]

Yes, I'd keep posting. This is good stuff, should be helpful for any new players.

 

[Jester Fool]

turnset 4; part 1 (~turn 219) :

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Since I was first to Landsraad, I could have built the Landsraad Council easily. However, I chose to trade Landsraad to the Bene Gesserit so she could build it. Later, after conquest and population growth, I will be up for nomination anyway so there is no reason to waste hammers building it myself. Council elections work as follows : the civ that controls the city where the Council is built is guaranteed eligibilty; the civ which has the highest population among all of the other civs will be the other candidate. I vote for Margot - no surprises there I hope.

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House Ix gets a free promotion (Ixian) to all suspensor craft, vehicles, mechs, and thopters which grants access to special promotions that are unavailable to other civs. The promotions I will use are self repair, point defense and adaptive.

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Roma gets her hopes dashed. She must think I am a fool. Needless to say, I won't be doing any trades with her until I vassalize her. The Bene Gesserit are willing to trade Personal Shields (which allows shield fighters - a unit superior to crawlers) so I will put a turn of research into that technology and hopefully I can trade tech 1:1 for it.

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I give House Ecaz Guild Banking for a 10 turn peace treaty. I really want to keep good relations with the Archduke (as long as the demands are reasonable, which IMO, this one is).

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I get a better deal than I thought I would. I will build a few more crawlers but will mostly build shield fighters (promoted to city raider three) now that they are available. CR3 shield fighters are 12 str (+90% city attack / +10% vs guardsman) for an effective strength of 24 on city attack (vs. what should be master guardsman with ~8.5 strength including promotions). Crawlers, which have 8 strength, are clearly outdated now. I go back to researching Prescience.

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The firefly bomber will provide bombing support once the war starts.

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Master Scytale is really becoming a pest. However, I give him what he wants. I don't want to deal with him just yet. After I take down Roma, the Bene Tleilax will be the next victim of Ixian aggression. They will make a good vassal after all (Tleilaxu plague and whatnot).

 

[Jester Fool]

turnset 4; part 2 (~turn 225) :

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I need all the gold I can get so I trade away Water of Life to Margot.

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I would consider her proposal, except I am still angry that she backstabbed me earlier. Also, it would be better from an economic standpoint to attack her since she is closer (thus any cities captured will cost less in maintenance - a key to keeping my science rate high).

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Hagga Pan, my "GP farm" (sortof), will build the Chamber of Visions - one of my favorite wonders. I have 31 spice so will gain 62 EP/turn after completion of this wonder. Although in this game I won't actively use espionage, the passive benefit (from high EP vs the AIs) of knowing what the AIs are researching is crucial. Normally, I base my choice of war targets and the timing of attacks on whether an AI has reached a key military tech or not.

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Finally I am able to build an academy in my research center (capital). Not optimal by an means but bulbing Human Potential early was a calculated risk. I really thought I would get another GS much sooner than I did. Still, the extra 75.25 beakers per turn is a welcome boost to my research output.

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The growing Ixian invasion force. I still need another light carryall but will launch the invasion soon.

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I really don't want the Harkonnens to vassal to the Bene Gesserit, a distinct possibility due to his weak power. I vote yes to stop the war against Lady Margot.

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I would love to join his war against Roma (and would get a +1 diplo bonus for doing so) but still need a few more turns to be fully prepared. I have to decline for the time being.

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It is hard to believe Beast Rabban still wants a piece of Margot. Whatever. I tried to help you buddy.

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I could really use more happiness resources so I trade away an excess health resource to the Bene Gesserit for coffee.

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The invasion forces are in place.

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I go ahead and transport a locust interceptor to my block city for additional air support.

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To war!!! Payback is a you know what Roma.

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After being attacked by one of my firefly bombers, this vulture thopter is a goner.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

Hey Jester, I haven't been able to see any of the images from turnset 4 as it's taking forever to load the first one in it. I don't know if you changed something in how your compressing the images or if it's just the site, but I wanted to let you know.

 

[Jester Fool]

@ Chris : I think the CFC forum software loads the entire page when it it viewed. So actually, every picture on page 3 is being loaded thus the delay (in seeing the pictures in the latest post). I was able to view everything (but there was a ~30 second delay) and haven't changed the picture compression. Might need to have some *filler* posts so there aren't as many pictures on one page to load at one time.