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Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Dune Wars' started by Deliverator, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. tesb

    tesb Emperor

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    oh thank you i will try.

    you may want to post 1.9.1 in welcome thread too. right now there is only the link to 1.9 and 1.9.1.2

    edit: 1.9.1b is a base download like 1.9 or do i need 1.9 + 1.9.1b + 1.9.1.2?

    my guess is that 1.9.1b + 1.9.1.2 is sufficient.

    i would really like to see 2.0 to get rid of those confusing version numbers :D
     
  2. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    That is correct.
     
  3. joefriendgood

    joefriendgood Chieftain

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    Soooo....is it quiet around here because 2.0 is on the way?
     
  4. Brugarin

    Brugarin Warlord

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    I'm drooling in anticipation! Until then my devastators will crush some more fremen scum.
     
  5. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    It is quiet around here because the main implementor for the past year, deliverator, is quiet. I have not done any development on DW for 1+ years. It may be worthwhile to just combine 1.9.1 and 1.9.1.2 into 2.0 and release it for ease of maintenance.
     
  6. Praylak

    Praylak Chieftain

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    I have found there are two polar terrian types missing from the techs that allow network connection for trade and resource purposes. Water Transportation and Dune Topography have Polar listed, but not Polar desert waste, nor polar sink. This would explain why polar region cities cannot connect, and the water shipper building does not function as a result. I imagine it got left out or forgotten when the Polar region got reworked sometime during v1.9.1 ? ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=362479&page=2 )

    I have added these terrian types to the tech Dune Topography, and I'm now testing it in a new game.
     
  7. Praylak

    Praylak Chieftain

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  8. joefriendgood

    joefriendgood Chieftain

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    Well that is unfortunate. Dune Wars is one of the top five mods I have ever played across all genres. It really is special. If this is the end, then let's enjoy what we have been able to play so far.Thank you.
     
  9. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    Lots of mods go through quiet periods. I would not say this is the "end" by any means.
     
  10. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    Just having come back to play this mod again after about a year, I have to say it's one of the most polished and most balanced (and fun) mods I've played at this point. I've only noted a few things that were off. One is the same polar sink issue seen in the above posts (with the same fix I was about to do myself, good job :goodjob:).

    The other is the uselessness of the ginaz training xp bonus, as mentioned in another thread I read here yesterday. The obvious fix (I think it was on Deliverator's to do list) is fractional xp. Since I've coded that in before in my personal RevDCM/LOR based mod, I decided yesterday to add it in to the DuneWars source code. I'm using a base 10 system(only one decimal accuracy -- e.i. 2.0 -- 2.1 -- 2.2 -- etc)) as more than that is unnecessary (who needs 2.14 experience... really?) and keeps the interface cleaner. I've just compiled my changes and will test it on a game or two. If anyone still around on the team is interested in adding it in, I'll be glad to send you the altered(and well commented) code. It's built on the source included in the latest patch (with a few python and xml changes to bring everything inline with the code base changes). If there's an svn(or other working copy somewhere) with any additional changes since that patch, it'd need to be merged, but that wouldn't be difficult.

    Chris
     
  11. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    A question while I'm rooting around in the code, is the bonuses for zeal 1 & 2 for enemy territory and cities actually implemented? Hopefully one of you (David/Arihman) might know for sure, but my first look at it seems to show that the only part actually implemented is the promotions help text, everything else I've looked at so far (still looking into it) is commented out, meaning... I don't think those tags are actually doing anything at present:crazyeye:. If that proves to be the case, I could also get those up and working, built into the combat odds, etc.

    Chris
     
  12. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    There isn't any svn or source repository. We rarely had more than one person developing at a time, and when we had multiple people, each was working in a different area. I haven't looked at the zeal code, and Ahriman didn't implement any of the code, but perhaps deliverator will come back and comment.

    If you have working changes, please zip the changed files and attach them to a post. If you are interested, it would be great to collect the two or three recent fixes, along with 1.9.1 and 1.9.1.2, and collect them into a new combined release. It could be called 1.9.2. If you're interested but would like help on creating the release, I can give you the info.
     
  13. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    I'd love to. I've already got the polar region fix by Praylak in my working copy, and early tests (after a few typical oversight bugs were fixed) on the fractional xp changes seem to be going well.

    Another small item I've noticed is that fremen workers at the beginning of the game have sandrider, but after getting the stillsuits technology, they auto auquire sandworker, blocking them from recieving sandrider (since the python code adding it occurs after the auto-acquire code on unit init). I don't think this is intended... get a new technology, yea!, now all your new workers are slower? doh.

    The fix should be to check for and remove the sandworker promo in the python before it tries adding the sandrider promo, a whole two lines of code I just inserted :). I'm about to test that.

    If there are any other small or needed fixes that I can look at while I'm at it, this would be a good place to point to where they've been mentioned, or... mention them here. Also David, what other recent fixes are there to include. I don't want to miss anything for not having read the right thread.

    Edit:
    I'll maintain a list here of possible fixes/improvements to include and status:

    - Polar region trade routes - fixed (thanks Prylak)
    - Polar sink terreforming/improvements? - where do we want to go with this
    - Fractional XP - in testing
    - Fremen Workers' sandrider promo - fixed
    - Zeal Promotion Implementation
    - Stillsuit goody hut result needs to be skipped if you already have sandrider - in testing
    - Limit default players on larger maps (see this thread) - done
    - possible inquisitor issue? need confirmation or testing

    Chris
     
  14. BvBPL

    BvBPL Pour Decision Maker

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    For my money, I think it’d be nice if multiples of the same faction could be played on the same map, assuming they could all access their special off-world resources and that all other functions worked fine. That seems like a tall order though given how the off-world resources system works and how the Twilkeau faction, in particular, works.
     
  15. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    There are no other problems I am aware of, although it may be worthwhile to scan the recent threads with reports:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=399551
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=362479
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325309
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335213

    This thread should describe everything you need to know to make a release. I recommend "1.9.2" rather than "2.0" since everybody's expectation for the contents of a "2.0" release may be quite large. I could even go for "1.10", some companies number their releases like this.
     
  16. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    My guess is that given it's as simple as one Ix player (for example) already got Ixian weapons before the other, I can add in the check to see if the second Ix player can import it a special rule where you're controlled resource is still available to the second instance of the Civ (e.i. the second Ix to build a starport still has Ixian weapons available). To balance this, the second to import it maybe only gets 1 instead of 3(none to trade, just one for himself) to reward the first guy somewhat for getting there first.

    At any rate, I haven't looked at that code at all yet. I'll almost certainly just reduce the default players for a 1.92 release, and maybe look into this system later, along with any other duplicate civ related bugs. It'll require some special testing.

    From this post:
    I don't know if we'd want the polar sinks to terraform or not (I'm a little skeptical of turning any polar region into lush grassland), though it should probably have the improvements possible... thoughts?

    From this post:
    The polar sink is fixed (for trade at least), and the Annex City bug has been an issue for a while, maybe I'll look into the code there, see if I see anything hinky. As for the Slig resource, and more importantly the inquisitor issue, can anyone else verify it, I haven't tried using an inquisitor yet and will have to test it see if it's an actual issue or not.
     
  17. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    Fractional XP
    As for new items, I've run several games now with the fractional xp in place without issue, so it so far seems good. It feels to me to fit the future setting to have more precision in this kind of thing too (as opposed to a Fall from Heaven type mod where I think it would feel out of place), but that's just me.

    More importantly perhaps, my personal feeling is that the leadership promo is a wee bit overpowered, but using a smaller percentage on it before wasn't wise because you'd get the same issue as with the ginaz promos in an integer based xp system. I'd propose changing it to maybe 75% where it's still powerful but not an automatic gimme gimme for leaders.

    Another consideration here is that units will on average gain more xp from combat than before. This is because, to give a hypothetical, a combat situation where victory would give in a fractional system 1.2xp, in an integer system gives 1xp. 1.6xp = 1xp. 2.3xp = 2xp. You get the point, it's almost always rounding down. The only case where this isn't the case is low xp situations (.5xp - .9xp) where it did round up before to the 1xp minimum. I think the amount of extra xp is fine (and balanced by the potentially lower xp in low risk fights) and doesn't cause a problem for normal units (feels very natural as I've played games with it), but it increases the power of a 100% xp boost that much more.

    Just as a general note by the way, the new minimum xp from a fight (and xp from retreating) is 0.5.:)

    New Spy Behaivor
    I've also made a change to the way espionage units return after a mission or being detected but escaping. Vanilla behavior is to return to the capital, even if the unit was on the other side of the planet, and you have a perfectly good city to retreat to 10 tiles away. In such cases I try to make things act in a way that makes sense -- not a way that's quick and easy to code.

    The new behavior picks the three nearest cities(owned by the unit's player obviously), weights them based on the ratio of their distance, and then adds in a slight random element. Without going into the nuts and bolts, the nearer the city, the more likely that's the city it'll return to, though where several cities are relatively similar distances, it won't go to the same one every time (thought still will go to closer cities more often). This is done just to increase immersion and make it less mechanical. Overly mechanical and predictable systems remind you too much you're in a game in my opinion, though the balance between transparency and randomness is always an important balancing act.

    I'll definitely use this new system personally, but, as always (given this isn't my mod and all;)) feedback is extremely welcome on it's inclusion.

    Just one more note on the subject in case it comes up, the major gameplay impact of this (other than a little less human frustration hopefully) is that given a sufficient supply of espionage points, and a nearby base, a lot more espionage missions can be conducted by a single spy in less time on areas distant from the capital. I personally don't think the primary limit on the frequency of conducting spy missions in such a case should be the travel time there, but rather you're supply of espionage points, and the risk you're willing to take in getting that spy caught (as the more time in enemy territory and the more missions attempted, the more likely he/she will be caught.) So, on those grounds, I personally think it makes for better gameplay.

    Chris
     
  18. davidlallen

    davidlallen Deity

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    I am not usually a fan of changing game functions just because we can; I'd rather make changes which specifically increase the feeling of a setting. Still, fractional XP and the new spy return idea sound worthwhile.

    There is definitely more to it. The Tleilaxu plague in particular makes assumptions that there is only one player of this civ. Most of the other civs have special python code also, which would need to be reviewed.
     
  19. ChrisAdams3997

    ChrisAdams3997 Prince

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    Agreed, I think a lot of mods go overboard with changes and lose focus - and balance - as a result. I'm a fan of small targeted changes that accomplish specific goals. I think both fit that goal and the feel of the mod, while keeping the existing balance in tact, and improve playability.

    That's why I said it's better left to a latter date too (if needed at all) when it could be looked at and tested specifically. I'm rather aware it'd be involved, and might just not be worth it. Also, with the proposed limit to default players, someone wanting more than 9 civs, despite the potential issues, can still set it up in a custom game, so we're not limiting someone's options, just keeping new players from accidentally walking into said issues without knowing why.

    Edit:
    Sometime in the next few days I'll put up a beta patch in this thread for testing, as soon as I get to look at the zeal promo stuff.

    Chris
     
  20. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    I prefer to have spies return to the capital. if you return to a close city you will never need more then one spy and the spy war will loose alot of depth. Now you will need to consider a lot more when selecting target and you need to invest in more spies since they do not get where they are going so fast. Also shorter travel times would give your spies XP/promotions faster.

    If espionage points are not a limiting factor you would do well just to build more spies.
     

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