Dune Wars Art Thread

[davidlallen]

What effect does the oasis have? I would suggest adding oases to desert waste tiles (for +1 water) rather than grassland tiles; to grassland tiles, I would add scrub forest (for +1 hammers), and maybe this can only happen in sinks.

Plains, grass and oasis are all copied from vanilla. Desert waste is coast, and no normal improvements etc can be placed there. I agree some kind of forest would be an interesting idea, but I am not sure forest would start in sink. I think it would start on the lee side of mesas. I don't want to use vanilla forest for art, so I'd prefer to keep this for a future enhancement.

 

[Deliverator]

Civ4 Colonization has a light scrub forest graphic that could be used.

 

[Ahriman]

Desert waste is coast, and no normal improvements etc can be placed there

Oasis is a feature, not an improvement; I'm pretty sure you can place features in ocean tiles. You might have to make a new ocean feature with the same name and graphics, but there are certainly ocean features in FFH/FF.
Attached screenshot shows that you can add the oasis feature to ocean tiles without any problems.

but I am not sure forest would start in sink

The idea was that sinks, being below groundlevel, are more sheltered from the winds, and so it is easier for plants to grow.
Plus, it helps compensate for the higher yield of grabens.
When a graben turns to grassland, you are going 1h1c -> 2 water. Whereas for rock/rugged, you're going 1h -> 2 water.

So, having forest with hammer bonus appear only in sinks helps to maintain the balance that sinks are a superior terrain type.

There is a scrub forest art already in FFH (or Fall Further anyway) that only shows up in deserts and plains normally, it could probably be used, at least as a start point (see attached).

 

[Deliverator]

I've not seen that scrub forest before - nice. It would be cool to have some saguaro around...

 

[davidlallen]

I'm pretty sure you can place features in ocean tiles.

I agree the game lets you do this. My point was, I want to keep desert waste for spice and blocking movement. It just confuses things if an oasis, with surface water, is the first and only thing to materialize in desert waste, and you can't do anything with it in terms of building improvements.

We can discuss about how terraforming could transform desert waste / deep desert into something. This would need a specific design and some feasibility tests. If we leave the terrain altitude as coast / ocean, then you won't be able to build improvements. I am not sure what happens to the pathfinding AI if we suddenly convert coast / ocean to land. Probably no disaster would happen, but I would like to test that separately.

There is a scrub forest art already in FFH (or Fall Further anyway)

Ooh! Want!

 

[Ahriman]

My point was, I want to keep desert waste for spice and blocking movement. It just confuses things if an oasis, with surface water, is the first and only thing to materialize in desert waste, and you can't do anything with it in terms of building improvements.

I don't understand this. Desert tiles are often worth working, particularly with the +1 hammer from weather scanner (and particularly with the financial trait).
And desert tiles with fresh water access aren't going to be getting spice anyway.
What is wrong with adding a +1 water bonus from an oasis?
And why does the presence of a feature mean you would need to (or players would expect to) be able to build improvements?

The point of adding the oasis was that it allows some slight terraforming of desert waste tiles *without* having to chance the terrain type. They stay desert waste, you just get a slight tile yield improvement. I agree that its not worth trying to change the desert terrain types.

And an oasis on grasslands just doesn't make sense; an oasis is a feature found in deserts, and its special because its rare. In grasslands, a pool of water is just called a pond (or a tarn, lake, etc. etc.).

Ooh! Want!

Which files should I be looking for? I can post them here.
Assets/art/buildings/improvements doesn't seem to be where to look.

 

[davidlallen]

And why does the presence of a feature mean you would need to (or players would expect to) be able to build improvements?

Let's hear more opinions on whether desert waste (coast) should have oasis improvements. I think it will confuse people who remember the simple rule that our desert waste / deep desert is just like coast / ocean, where you can't build anything. We put spice there, as an exception. If we want open water, it should start with some earlier terraforming instead of just appearing.

And an oasis on grasslands just doesn't make sense; an oasis is a feature found in deserts, and its special because its rare. In grasslands, a pool of water is just called a pond (or a tarn, lake, etc. etc.).

OK, I will call it "lake" then. The point is that in late terraforming, the Fremen were astounded to see open water, and that is what I am trying to show.

Which files should I be looking for? I can post them here.
Assets/art/buildings/improvements doesn't seem to be where to look.

I guess it is a terrain type, so assets/art/terrain/textures/something. I have a relatively recent version of FFH, and it is not in that; so it must be in FF. Do you know about pakbuild, to open fpk files? You probably won't see many files in assets/art/terrain because they are in the pak. If you know pakbuild, please look; otherwise deliverator or I can download FF, unpak the fpk, and presumably find it.

 

[Ahriman]

Let's hear more opinions on whether desert waste (coast) should have oasis improvements.

Agreed.

I think it will confuse people who remember the simple rule that our desert waste / deep desert is just like coast / ocean, where you can't build anything

I don't think that adding help (+1 food) to water tiles in Planetfall or FFH/Orbis confuses players at all. They know its still an ocean tile, and it will be graphically obvious from the heightmap that the desert waste with oasis is still part of the ocean.

The point is that in late terraforming, the Fremen were astounded to see open water, and that is what I am trying to show.

My problem is, grasslands are already producing 2 water, which is a lot; adding another water yield is potentially too much water from a non-bonus tile, I think it would be much better to add a hammer yield, since it is hammers that you are losing out on by going from rock or broken or graben -> grasslands.

There isn't necessarily any reason why we can't have both though; forests in sinks, lakes on flatlands or in sinks not adjacent to another lake, oasis on desert.

I guess it is a terrain type, so assets/art/terrain/textures/something. I have a relatively recent version of FFH, and it is not in that; so it must be in FF. Do you know about pakbuild, to open fpk files? You probably won't see many files in assets/art/terrain because they are in the pak. If you know pakbuild, please look; otherwise deliverator or I can download FF, unpak the fpk, and presumably find it.

Yeah, sorry, these aren't visible: there is no assets/art/terrain visible to me, and I don't know what pakbuild is.

 

[davidlallen]

This is my process [for making buttons], all done in Paint.NET apart from step 5:
1. Take a screenshot of the unit using NifSkope.
2. Select and cut away the background colour.
3. Crop to a square leaving enough boundary for the frame when resized.
4. Add radial gradiant background layer.

Can you put up a dds of the exact background layer, 32x32? The remaining vanilla buttons are bugging me, and if I do something with the religions, I will need to make bunch of new ones anyway. I use photoshop elements, and your instructions do not give the exact colors of the radial gradient, and this would save some trial/error.

 

[Deliverator]

Do you mean 64x64? The hex values for the radial gradiant are 83483F and FFD86D.

I've attached the alpha mask and icon from I use in case that is any help.

 

[Deliverator]

Here's the tweaked terraforming terrain textures and a contour hugging Oasis. I followed your darker shade of green suggestion. Also, I'm using a more appropriate detail layer so if you zoom in it will look more like grassland.

I moved the Oasis into the centre of the tile and made it 10% bigger which seems to help the look.

How about renaming Plains -> Grassland, and Grassland -> Verdant, Lush or something like that. 'Plains' seems a bit.... plain.

 

[Ahriman]

I would say: the unimproved look is not important. What is important is how it looks with improvements on it; particularly with cottages (->villages/towns), turbines and solar farms.

With the oasis in the middle of it, the improvements are likely to be sitting in the lake.

The green looks nice.

I think "lush" or "verdant" are beyond the scope of the timeline in this mod.

 

[Deliverator]

It is possible to change how certain improvements sit with certain bonuses and features in the LPlotSystem I believe. I can move it back into the corner - but then you'll get the occasional 45 degree incline lake which looks a bit strange too.

 

[davidlallen]

Turns out "scrub" is a feature in FF. The zip is attached. We can discuss how to use it.

Thanks for the button background.

I think the new "lake" looks good. Actually this is supposed to be a cool, rare "chrome" thing. So I could argue that it should not appear on improved plots and it should prevent improvements. (This will inspire about 20 more posts ).

Perhaps we can only get one "visually different" shade of grass. If we can get two that may be better. But a while back we had three densities of spice, and got rid of them; the extra complexity did not add much.

I'd like to put "something" on badlands and rugged while they are terraforming. I had the anchor grass improvement, but took it away. It was only a cyan-colored version of swordgrass anyway. Maybe we could have anchor grass as a feature, and put that "behind" improvements while the terrain is in the process of upgrading.

So many possibilities.

 

[Ahriman]

It is possible to change how certain improvements sit with certain bonuses and features in the LPlotSystem I believe.

This sounds promising.

Turns out "scrub" is a feature in FF.

Yes, its a feature, just like forests. So you can have terrain + feature + improvement, which was the intention: graben terraforms to grassland, and then gets some kind of forest feature over the top of its improvements.

I think the new "lake" looks good. Actually this is supposed to be a cool, rare "chrome" thing. So I could argue that it should not appear on improved plots and it should prevent improvements. (This will inspire about 20 more posts ).

.... doesn't terraforming require improvement on the tile?
And of course, its a penalty if it prevents improvements, I'd rather have my cottage or turbine.
If you take away the improvements, then it needs a large tile yield.

So, just 1 post

Perhaps we can only get one "visually different" shade of grass. If we can get two that may be better.

I prefer the 2 stages of terraforming a lot. It adds much more a feel that this is a very slow time-consuming process.

Maybe we could have anchor grass as a feature, and put that "behind" improvements while the terrain is in the process of upgrading.

Possible... what do you mean by "in the process of upgrading"? You mean in place of a plains terrain?
Definitely not the old cyan anchor grass though, that was pretty painful to look at

 

[davidlallen]

.... doesn't terraforming require improvement on the tile? And of course, its a penalty if it prevents improvements, I'd rather have my cottage or turbine. If you take away the improvements, then it needs a large tile yield. So, just 1 post

In my local version, as I have described, terraforming no longer requires an improvement. I guess we need to choose, either a small lake in the corner which may be at a 45% angle when adjacent to mesa, or a large lake which prevents improvements. (2 posts.)

What do you mean by "in the process of upgrading"? You mean in place of a plains terrain?

You have suggested that rugged->rock should take longer than say, rock->plains. I don't have a specific proposal, I was just thinking that a "half terraformed" rugged might have anchor grass growing on it to indicate something is happening.

As usual we can think of a lot more effects, than we can actually create visually distinctive art for.

 

[Ahriman]

I guess we need to choose, either a small lake in the corner which may be at a 45% angle when adjacent to mesa, or a large lake which prevents improvements.

It is possible to change how certain improvements sit with certain bonuses and features in the LPlotSystem I believe.

Or, as Deliverator says, maybe we can have both a centrally located lake and improvements around it. (3 posts)

You have suggested that rugged->rock should take longer than say, rock->plains.

Actually my main suggestion was that plains -> grassland should take as long as rock -> plains (it was happening much faster).

As another alternative; if we can't get forest, we could go back to having the Sink give +1 hammer (or +1 commerce), and then have the graben terrain give just 1 commerce (or 1 hammer).
That way, a sink-plains would give 1f1h (or 1f1c), and a sink-grassland would give 2f1h (or 2f1c). So the superiority of sinks would be preserved by terraforming, without needing any extra feature.
And if you had the oasis with no improvement, it could give say 1f2c.

 

[davidlallen]

Or, as Deliverator says, maybe we can have both a centrally located lake and improvements around it.

Messing around with the L-system is tedious and error-prone. For example, the building L-system is why the Oracle of Hajra makes the force screen huge, and also probably why the aqueduct graphic crashes with our new heightmaps. I always try to find solutions that are simpler to implement.

 

[davidlallen]

I have put in HW 2.04 and the two new grass terrains. I will call the lower level grass "Anchor Grass" (thematic name, have to use it somewhere) and the upper level one "Grassland". I will keep the original oasis for now. I have not changed the yields of anchor grass (1w) or grassland (2w) as yet. Also, although I like the scrub forest feature with saguaro, it does not speak "+1h" or "grows in sinks" to me. I have not added it anywhere yet.

I guess there is no more art expected today. I will poke around at the religion gamefonts and then release what I have as 1.5.4. Sadly, because the number of things changing is so large, I do not think we are any closer to a stable 1.6 with a well-tuned economy. I have run out of energy/interest on economics tuning.

 

[Deliverator]

No more art planned this weekend from me...

I would release the new patch to the database, etc anyway - the percentage of mods uploaded that are perfectly balanced must be tiny. The more exposure, the more downloads, the higher the likehood of feedback which will help with the balancing.