DuneWars: Battle for Arrakis

[Slvynn]

I think that we shoud switch now to Water Discipline as must from Mercantilism. Our GP pool is used already, gain is massive from Water Discipline, which much more than absence of foreign trade and 1 specialist per city.

 

[Ahriman]

Are you sure? Remember that each specialist gives +1beaker1gold1culture on top of its normal output.

Who are we going to trade with anyway?

I'm not strongly opposed, anyway. Switching is pretty harmless with spiritual trait.

I guess we could think about going water discipline for a while, and then switching to private property/planned economy in the late-game, once our tiles yield more water thanks to terraforming.

 

[Slvynn]

The Mercantilism gain is less because terraforming tile give alot of yield, and more food (average 2-3 water per city) is more pop which can maintain another tile of wateryelding food.
If you add boosted trade with trade routes it will be much more beneficial, even while we wait for green tiles.

But sure- we are Spi, so changing of civics may be done without problem. Simply more water with our happinnes and health is very good.

 

[Ahriman]

The Mercantilism gain is less because terraforming tile give alot of yield

I don't understand this. Mercantilism gives a *free* specialist. It doesn't reduce the number of workers you can have working tiles.

But sure- we are Spi, so changing of civics may be done without problem. Simply more water with our happinnes and health is very good.

I'm fine with changing now, or soon, and re-evaluating later as needed. And eventually maybe switching to cottage economy.

Deliverator is up now, right?

 

[Deliverator]

Yes, it's my turn. I'll get to it soon. So, it sounds like I'm switching civics to Water Discipline and building up the military primarily. Perhaps trying to attack Ordos/Harkonnens if possible.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

BTW, I started a settler, since it looks like the north is really unpopulated and just building forts which are going to be destroyed by sandworms isn't a long term solution. I don't think we'll get to 50% just with conquering all the other factions...

 

[Slvynn]

BTW, I started a settler, since it looks like the north is really unpopulated and just building forts which are going to be destroyed by sandworms isn't a long term solution. I don't think we'll get to 50% just with conquering all the other factions...

Those cities will be object to hight maintenance , also increasing total maintenance in other cities. Its better to assign workers for north spice harvesting opperations.

 

[Ahriman]

BTW, I started a settler, since it looks like the north is really unpopulated and just building forts which are going to be destroyed by sandworm

Those cities will be object to hight maintenance , also increasing total maintenance in other cities. Its better to assign workers for north spice harvesting opperations

Post some screenshots of where you are thinking of building cities. If they're good city spots, I say build them, they'll pay their own maintenance costs. But if they're bad city spots, its not worth building for the territory.

(Also note, vassalizing Fremen will help too, in terms of giving us half their land).

And, finally, sandWORMS can't destroy forts. SandSTORMS can.

 

[Slvynn]

They are at bad 3 tie isles at far north - where i built forts to mine more spice
Thats a very bad location for city.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, in my first try at the turnset, a sandstorm destroyed 2 forts and a sandworm ate our worker.
I think a city up north will include 3-4 resources and will probably pay for itself. If it doesn't maybe we can liberate it to Master Scytale.

 

[davidlallen]

Well, in my first try at the turnset, a sandstorm destroyed 2 forts and a sandworm ate our worker.

Putting an extra scout thopter or two as fogbusters near the workers may help.

 

[Ahriman]

Putting an extra scout thopter or two as fogbusters near the workers may help.

The main issue is really one of micromanagement; workers building a harvester or other improvement over multiple turns do NOT wake up when a worm moves next to them.

Probably an issue of land vs sea domain.

 

[Slvynn]

The main issue is really one of micromanagement; workers building a harvester or other improvement over multiple turns do NOT wake up when a worm moves next to them.

Probably an issue of land vs sea domain.

Scout Thopter with sentry mode above workers solves this.
In books there are few scenes of deep desert spice harvesting. And thopters there had major role
example - CoD Muriz and Leto scene.

 

[davidlallen]

workers building a harvester or other improvement over multiple turns do NOT wake up when a worm moves next to them. Probably an issue of land vs sea domain.

Possibly, or possibly related to the "no threat" flag that koma13 added. Way back in 1.2, I think, there was a problem that the AI was building a huge number of sea attack units (remember, scout thopters do not count as attack units) because of the "threat" from all the high strength sandworms out there. He added an xml flag to mark sandworms as no threat. If that is the problem, however, then scout thopters should not wake up either. It is worth putting on the list to investigate.

Separate but related, sandstorms have fairly predictable movement, and do not wake up workers either. They are effects, so there is no easy way for them to wake anybody up. I suppose a unit which is near a sandstorm but cannot be hit, say NW,W or SW of a storm, would not need to wake up, but others would.

 

[negyvenketto]

Because the economic benefits from the extra water income are huge, especially when multiplied by greenhouses and eventually by water refineries (+30% combined). 5 extra grassland tiles means 13 extra food, which supports 6 extra pop/specialists!!! Even in the short run, 2 grasslands + 1 anchor grass means 3 extra pop.
We get much larger cities, which means much larger economy and production. Our happy cap is waaay beyond our city size.
Its not minor, and it happens *free*, without us having to invest time/hammers/workers in getting the bonus.

You can't say every terraformed tile will give you 2 water. It's rare. Mainly it gives only 1. And by the time we get 5 terraformed tiles / city we already won! The second mistake of this calculation is that 13 extra water will not give you 6 extra specialist, only 1 (or 2) because the other 5 new citizen will actually work those tiles. (Imagine, when the 1st new water source is available you remove 1 specialist to work that tile, to get the bonus, which means you lose a bunch of GPP while growing again!)
The only way you can get those many specialist if you already work those tiles as cottages. But I think that is not wise if you really do SE.
And no, you have to invest workers turn, to improve those tiles to cottages, but in this game it's already done.

 

[Slvynn]

Yep i agree with negy

As for game i think its time to focus on numberless military and wipe all rivals out using supperior numbers. The units which aviable to us are just good enough to built them numberless and swarm our enemies.

 

[negyvenketto]

Usually one doesn't need numberless military to win, but this game a little bit strange. We didn't go for a closer enemy, we are a bit overstretched and have to defend far away cities. We made this game more challenging for ourselves
We can get Desert Industry and CHOAM to help economy and Personal Shield after to get better assault units.
In my solo games I wasn't very impressed by Firefly bombers, they are ineffective bombing down defenses, better to use them striking units. The drawback is the range. Carriers are quite late in the tech tree. I prefer Missile Launchers / Assault Cannons.

 

[negyvenketto]

Please dedicate some time to micromanagement, there are unworked water tiles. And there are some worked rock cottages, but I think better to hire a specialist instread. Grassland cottages can be OK.

 

[Slvynn]

The problem with outstretching that Ecaz and Ix had very tought defences. Really.
Harkonnen on other side had low level huge stacks, but his pole was undefended, and Ordos, who shared landmass with Harks, agreed to attack him. Our gains were massive, though outstretching our empire.
But atm i think we should be fine, havng Heavy Troopers for defence. Fireflies are awesome for defence - bombing enemy stacks. (dont forget that you can redeploy full stack of those in 1 turn to any city, if needed), so they are good defence for our big empire as well.
I like Missile launchers too and thats only toy i use to bomb city defences, since Mortar tech and ML tech have not critical beaker difference, but great difference in efficiency.

 

[Ahriman]

It's rare. Mainly it gives only 1

Note that rare. The chance of an anchor grass changing to grassland is the same as the change of a rock changing to anchor grass.

And by the time we get 5 terraformed tiles / city we already won!

Hopefully. But larger cities and economies will help to power us there.

The second mistake of this calculation is that 13 extra water will not give you 6 extra specialist, only 1 (or 2) because the other 5 new citizen will actually work those tiles. (Imagine, when the 1st new water source is available you remove 1 specialist to work that tile, to get the bonus, which means you lose a bunch of GPP while growing again!)

The citizen working the tile still provides a large income from doing so: 1w2h4c for a cottaged tile on anchor grass, and an extra hammer if we convert to planned economy.

And we are already working a lot of those tiles anyway, for cottages and wells and dew collectors. When those tiles change, its a pure income increase.

Its free extra income, no matter which way you look at it.

And the GPP aren't really the point, beyond the first few great people; the point is the income from tile yield or specialists.

And no, you have to invest workers turn, to improve those tiles to cottages, but in this game it's already done.

And in almost every game. Cottages are cheap.

As for game i think its time to focus on numberless military

But that's the beauty; there is no contradiction between getting a larger economy through terraforming while also building just military. It doesn't cost us anything.

In my solo games I wasn't very impressed by Firefly bombers, they are ineffective bombing down defenses, better to use them striking units

Yes, striking units is what they are best at. And they are very good at that, like bombers in vanilla.

since Mortar tech and ML tech

Yeah, this is an issue, mortars don't get much play. I'm not sure what the best solution is. Bring mortar earlier? Change pre-requisities for the the techs?