Dutch UB overpowered?

[Liszt]

I played as the Netherlands for the first time the other day. I thought the dike would work in the same way as the levee (can only build if your city is on a river) but is is more like the Moai wonder - all water tiles get a hammer (and all river tiles, of course)

In the space of 5 turns, all my cities, even the crappy placeholders, became decent producers. It was a quick win from there (Noble, fractal)

Definately the best UB I have used. Anyone else found that Holland kicks arse halfway through the game?

 

[the reverend]

They're definitely good towards the end of the game, but I wouldn't say their unique building is overpowered simply because it comes so late in the game. It definitely is an awesome production boost if you're going for a space victory, but it comes too late for any other victory type.

 

[UWHabs]

There's been many a talk about this. With Willem, spam coastal cities, hole up until mid-game, then power through everyone. Build a city with 18 water tiles, and now they're all 2 food, 2 hammers, 3 commerce, a pretty damn good tile overall.

 

[Bei1052]

They're definitely good towards the end of the game, but I wouldn't say their unique building is overpowered simply because it comes so late in the game. It definitely is an awesome production boost if you're going for a space victory, but it comes too late for any other victory type.

Maybe it's just how I play, but SP isn't really that late of a tech (For me, at least).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No matter how long the perceived dike orgy goes on, the UB is good, but far from overpowered.

Weigh the 2F 1H 3C tile against anything you could work on land. Mines, cottages, workshops, and pretty much every other tile improvement available on grassland or usually even plains tiles is superior to the yield from the coast tile. That means that the tiles improved by the dike are the last ones you'll work other than non-river cities with rivers in the BFC.

So, the dike is going to get you a couple extra hammers to throw around per city compared to what other civs can match.

However, other civs have means to close the gap, such as $$$ buy or slaving with kremlin, producing units ahead of time then upgrading, drafting, or just basic city specialization.

The dike is definitely nice to have and I get utility from it on most water maps should I happen to be the dutch, but for anything but archipelago or big and small...give me any early booster or maintenance UB easily. Even the health buildings are more appealing sometimes.

Overpowered? Nonsense.

 

[Iranon]

Nobody ever invites me to any dyke orgies... *grumble*

Yes, it's powerful. But it's not the only high-impact UB in the late game.
With a well-stocked corporation, Ikhandas and Rathouses can save a ludicrious amount of money. With Kremlin/Coporation-assisted whipping, the Sacrificial altar becomes an utterly ridiculous aid for production.
These can be fully equal to the Dike in lategame power even on watery maps, don't need such to be good, and will have done their bit for millenia before you could build dikes.

 

[bestbrian]

The Dyke? Again? Seriously?

It can't be a top UB, because it comes too late (and I'm not convinced it's the top building of it's era), actually provides a very situational benefit (cities with lots of water tiles), and is not of any advantage on others (Great Plains, any arid map, etc). Compare it to, say, The Mall, which pops into the game not long afterwards (still too late to be top-tier), but provides a large tangible benefit on all maps, in all cities, in all games, and the Dyke's failings are more obvious.

The Dyke is the very definition of "meh".

 

[the343danny]

The Dutch are one of my favorite civs. Willem has an insane combo, and the dike is great too. However, its the leader that makes them great, as most games are decided before I get my dikes. Speeds the game up when I get them, though.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Weigh the 2F 1H 3C tile against anything you could work on land. Mines, cottages, workshops, and pretty much every other tile improvement available on grassland or usually even plains tiles is superior to the yield from the coast tile. That means that the tiles improved by the dike are the last ones you'll work other than non-river cities with rivers in the BFC.

True, but I don't think that changes anything. That late in the game, a developed city can and does work all of its tiles anyway.

Also, the +1, in my opinion is the only thing that makes ocean tiles worth working at all. When I look at a prospective city's fat cross, ocean tiles are hardly more favorable than desert.

 

[binhthuy71]

You may as well say that the lumber mill is overpowered. If you can avoid chopping your forests to extinction in the early game the lumber mill is available earlier than the levee for +1 hammer per forest tile and +2 with Railroad.

 

[sherbz]

the thing that makes the dike so good is the fact that willem, with his financial trait, is the one who employs it. The financial trait kicks in on water tiles so not only do you get an increase on hammers, you also get a good deal of commerce to boot. I think it is defo one of the best UB. It does come rather late in the game, but i usually find that when you play as financial civ's you usually have to wait until around the dikes appearance before you can push on for an unbeatable position. Once the dike is around you should be working all your cities tiles and have banks and grocers everywhere as well as the wall street. This is when the CE comes into its own and then dikes caps it off, making the dutch the best late game civ to be IMO.

 

[Planoneck]

I don't think the dike is overpowered, but it's certainly one of my favorite UBs and one of the reasons why the Dutch are my favorite civ. Even when not playing an archipelago map, most of my Dutch cities are going to be coastal anyway (go figure). I don't mind that it comes late, since the Dutch are already powerful without it, and I usually go for space race, so every bit of late game production counts. Combined with Moai, a coastal city can become a top tier production center.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Um...

Once the dike is around you should be working all your cities tiles

Quite a big assumption, given health caps. Rare are the games I peek into where the player has size 20 cities around 1500 AD for all cities. Maybe a few.

and have banks and grocers everywhere as well as the wall street. This is when the CE comes into its own and then

City specialization = not banks and grocers EVERYWHERE. We also suffer somewhat here as to whether the extra hammers are huge or not ---> hammer cities are likely to be smaller and far less likely to have 0 health trouble allowing the working of a marginal tile.

This is when the CE comes into its own and then dikes caps it off, making the dutch the best late game civ to be IMO.

1. CE and SE are close-to-useless terms
2. How does a marginal hammer improvement benefit cottage spam? You want your multipliers first, no?
3. All of this assumes lots of coast or coastal cities in the first place. The dike is strictly equal to its stock building when inland.

And the reason I call this the dike orgy is because the last favorite UB poll named it the top UB, usually favored because it's "so strong".

But, if you're running a fractal or shuffle map, I can reel off so many UBs that are better it isn't funny:

1. Sac Alter, which as mentioned can potentially outproduce the dikes on water maps, and always outproduces them on land maps. Oh yeah, it's got a reduced hammer cost too.
2. Zig: Early EP and cheap cost
3. Ikhanda: dominates w/ corps, and allows for aggressive early expansion
4. Hammam: + 2 early on is a big deal, especially on a tech you'll be getting early
5. HRE UB: Earlier and like ikhanda dominates w/ corps
6. Trading post: naval mobility is a big deal on water maps, and you have it w/ galleys on.
7. Hannibal's UB: Again, it's a lot earlier. The extra trade route could be as much as 8-10 commerce on something you'd build anyway.
8. Terrace: Skip the monuments, chop this and grow
9. Madrassa: Early culture press is nice on its own (gotten in time to double, it can even content with creative's culture press). If you need prophets or just fast GPP even better.

Note the above isn't a ranking, just a list of UBs that are all frequently better than the dike, and I don't think it stops there. Granted, in any given game the dike *might* outperform them, maybe. However, the fact that any of these could easily be superior (hell, on land maps virtually every UB is superior other than the other water ones) definitely dampens the whole "overpowered" question. This is why it's the "dike orgy". Even though it's a decent UB, the love it gets makes it easily the most overrated of all UUs/UBs.

 

[sherbz]

Um...
Quite a big assumption, given health caps. Rare are the games I peek into where the player has size 20 cities around 1500 AD for all cities. Maybe a few.

I usually run environmentalism for the health bonus, and by this point ive usually taken out at least one other civ and have a good ally to trade additional happy and health resources. If you play it right this should be possible. Of course every game is different, and you have to adapt your strategy to what you are given.

City specialization = not banks and grocers EVERYWHERE. We also suffer somewhat here as to whether the extra hammers are huge or not ---> hammer cities are likely to be smaller and far less likely to have 0 health trouble allowing the working of a marginal tile.

Ok well not everywhere, but in all your commerce cities, which usually number quite a few by this point.

1. CE and SE are close-to-useless terms
2. How does a marginal hammer improvement benefit cottage spam? You want your multipliers first, no?

Why are CE and SE useless terms? The CE is more powerful in the late game. Willem gets the extra commerce from all the water tiles making them even more attractive to work because of the financial trait. I think the dike is similar to having an extension to universal suffrage: where water tiles get a hammer bonus as well as towns on land.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok well not everywhere, but in all your commerce cities, which usually number quite a few by this point.

And have very little use for hammers, making the dike excessively low priority there.

Why are CE and SE useless terms?

Because they have varied meaning between every user, and no matter which you're running whatever letter you are using comprises only a fraction of your total output. A fraction that varies between games even for the same player doing the supposed same economy. Useless.

The CE is more powerful in the late game. Willem gets the extra commerce from all the water tiles making them even more attractive to work because of the financial trait. I think the dike is similar to having an extension to universal suffrage: where water tiles get a hammer bonus as well as towns on land.

I still don't get what you're talking about. If you built cottages, you're working cottages over the water tiles. If you build *any* improvement, you're working it over the water tiles. So what about 1h/coast tile, exactly, favors cottages? Dikes are clearly behind market/grocer/bank and library/obs/university in cities working cottages, also. Depending on situation they're also behind some of the and health buildings.

Remember, none of this is to say that I'm calling dikes useless. They aren't. They're a decent improvement over the base building in the mid game to early late game. But to see so many people call it #1 UB is a huge reach, similar to calling the japanese unit the top UU or something. It isn't.

 

[Iranon]

On high water archipelago maps, Dikes can be a game breaker... you'll be working a lot of water tiles as there will be hardly anything else. However, most of those are won the instant you snag the Great Lighthouse anyway.
You might not even need that to win high-level games, since the AI is at its weakest here.

Even under circumstances where the Dike shines, I might prefer the Sacrificial Altar: you will be starved of production during much of the game while having almost unlimited access to food-neutral commerce tiles to regrow with. The ability to do a 2-point whip every 5 rounds if you have 1 or 2 seafood resources is huge there... less impressive than the Dike, but available far earlier and still and allowing you to transcend the biggest limitation of those maps.

 

[Negator_UK]

I agree with TMIT that dykes improve tiles that are mostly junk.

... but dyke + moai - thats a goody

 

[6K Man]

One good thing about the Dike is that it allows you to get a +1 on riverside tiles even if the city wasn't built on a river (unlike Levee).

I wouldn't say it's overpowered, but as others have said, it's great on water maps. A little seafood for whipping, and even a marginal city becomes useful.

 

[Zubbus]

Not at all. I don't know how you worked it out to be overpowered. Water tiles cannot be as productive as land tiles to start with, even with the Dutch UB. So the more water tiles you have, the less productive the city is. Only that with the UB, the margin is smaller. And if your city has a lot of water tiles, getting the Dike up can take a while.

 

[mechaerik]

Also, the +1, in my opinion is the only thing that makes ocean tiles worth working at all. When I look at a prospective city's fat cross, ocean tiles are hardly more favorable than desert.

What? A self-supporting 3, 1 tile is barely better than a desert? Deserts are completely worthless!! Ocean tiles are best early on, but are still good later on!