Eagles and Eastern Europe

[Steph]

Ok, so this doesn't get too trollish I want to ask this question - what is that makes the Chinese dragon beautiful and the so-called European dragon (ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of different representations of dragons) ugly?

Easy, the answer is in the question. The Asian dragon is beautiful, because it's asian. While the European dragon is ugly, because, well, it's European.

 

[Mirc]

I guess you nailed it, Steph.

 

[Steph]

Next he will probably claim the flight attendants of Singapore Airline are supposed to be the prettiest in the world.

Spoiler :

But this time he would be right

 

[Traitorfish]

No offense but the European Dragon is ugly and seen as a monster

Not exactly- the "ugly" dragon comes from a medieval Christian world view, in which dragons were seen as representations of evil. Dragons in pre-Christian paganism, post-medieval romanticism and modern fantasy vary considerably in appearance, from ugly, scaly brutes to very graceful, cat-like creatures.

 

[aronnax]

I would have thought you are being sarcastic if I didn't know the other posts of yours.

Ok, so this doesn't get too trollish I want to ask this question - what is that makes the Chinese dragon beautiful and the so-called European dragon (ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of different representations of dragons) ugly?

Easy, the answer is in the question. The Asian dragon is beautiful, because it's asian. While the European dragon is ugly, because, well, it's European.

I guess you nailed it, Steph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon

East Slavic

Spoiler :

In Russia and Ukraine, a particular dragon-like creature, Zmey Gorynych, has three heads, is green, walks on two back paws, has small front paws, and spits fire. According to one bylina, Zmey Gorynych was killed by Dobrynya Nikitich.

Other Russian dragons (such as Tugarin Zmeyevich) have Turkic names, probably symbolizing the Mongols and other steppe peoples. Accordingly, St George (symbolizing Christianity) killing the Dragon (symbolizing Satan) is represented on the coat of arms of Moscow. Some prehistoric structures, notably the Serpent's Wall near Kiev, have been associated with dragons as symbols of foreign peoples.

Russian dragons usually have heads in multiples of three. Some have heads that grow back if every single head isn't cut off.

South Slavic

Spoiler :

In Slovenia a dragon is called zmaj, although an archaic word of unclear origins, pozoj, is sometimes used as well. Dragons in Slovenia are generally negative in nature, and usually appear in relation with St. George. Other, presumably pre-Christian folk tales relate stories of dragons defeated similarly as the Polish Wawel Dragon, i.e. by tricking them into devouring lime. However, the dragon is not always harmful to man. The best example of this is the Ljubljana dragon, who benevolently protects the city of Ljubljana and is pictured in the city's coat of arms.

In Macedonia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro a dragon is called zmaj, zmej or lamja. It is a multi-headed dragon (with 3, 7 or 9 heads) who breathes fire. Also in Serbia and Bosnia it is also called aždaja (Serbian language), aždaha (Bosnian language) (see Azhi Dahaka and Zilant). Ala (in Serbian) or hala (in Bulgarian) is, by a belief, a female dragon, but generally she is a creature separate from dragons. Most probably from Bulgarian, the word for 'dragon' (zmeu, with E and not with A as in Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian) was borrowed among the Romanians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuélebre
Asturian, Spain

Spoiler :

Cuélebre, or Culebre, is a giant winged serpent (a dragon) of the Asturian and Cantabrian mythology, which lives in caves and guards treasures while keeping xanas as prisoners. Although they are immortal, they grow old as the time goes by and their scales become thick and impenetrable, and flag wings grow in their bodies. They don't usually move, and when they do it, it is in order to eat cattle and people. One can kill the cuélebre giving him as meal a red-hot stone or a bread full of pins. Its spit it is said to turn into a magic stone which heals many diseases.

In Midsummer, which is a magical night in Asturian and Cantabrian folklore, it is possible for brave men to defeat the cuélebre, whose spells don't take effect that night, and marry the xana and get the treasure. However in Cantabrian areas it's said the night of Saint Bartholomew the creature increases his power and unleashes all his fury against people in revenge.

When the cuélebre grows older its scale become thicker and thicker, and he must flee Asturias and fly to the Mar Cuajada, a paradise located beyond the sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herensuge

Basque, Spain and France

Spoiler :

Herensuge is the name for dragon in Basque language. In Basque mythology, dragons appear sparingly. Only the god Sugaar is associated with this creature but more often with a serpent.

Yet there is a Christian legend in which certain Navarrese knight, Teodosio de Goñi, while making penance for double parricide in Aralar sierra has to rescue a woman that had been given as ransom to the dragon. When the chains that tie his ankles have been bitten by the dragon and he sees no way of defeating it, the knight prays to Saint Michael to save him. In Heaven, the archangel is notified: "Michael, they call you in Earth" but he replies: "My Lord, I won't go to that fight without You". Finally, the archangel, with God over his head appears and cuts the head of the dragon, liberating Teodosio from his chains and ending his penance.

This legend is specifically associated to the monastery of San Miguel de Aralar. It has been interpreted in the sense of justifying the break away with the religion and customs of Pagan Basques and adopting Christianity and, specifically, the veneration for St. Michael. For the rest, it is very similar to other European legends of knights and dragons, of which is surely a local adaptation.

I would go on with how the German mythology sees dragons but ill just post this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

Now the Chinese dragon is revered as a god, as a ruler of heaven and Earth.
The European dragon is usaully associated with negative terms, for being a destroyer or an evil force. They are in myths and stories and beliefs killed by heroes and saints and whatnot. The Russian dragon is asscioated with the Mongols. Then, the mongols were seen as an "evil barbaric race sent to wreck havoc". The point is that the European Dragon is usually depicted as a monster.

So, before you comment on dragons Mirc, Read a little first. Its quite helpful to use in an discussion.

The European Dragon is ugly

The Chinese (Not Asian you fool) is Beautiful

 

[Mirc]

You tell me to "read a little"? Interesting.

How I love using people's links against themselves in a debate!!

Let's see:

European dragon:

Spoiler :

Looks so peaceful!!

And now Chinese dragon:

Spoiler :

Ugh.

Spoiler :

Oh man, he's gonna kill us! Ruuun!


This one is majestic:

Spoiler :

And now some other pics:

Beautiful, isn't it?

And here's an European one that looks almost exactly like some Chinese dragons I've seen:

Spoiler :

You just posted descriptions of European dragons. Yes, they have claws, and everything, but it's normal for any symbol that's supposed to be powerful. Your statement is EXACTLY something like "my dad is better than yours". It still amazes me how some people would blindly expose opinions like this, that are almost amusing!

 

[Traitorfish]

The European Dragon is ugly

Firstly, you're confusing the "European" dragon with the Christian dragon. Christian dragons are particularly a symbol of evil, while dragons in pre-Christian mythology can be good, evil or neutral, as can the dragons of post-Medieval romanticism and fantasy.
Secondly, even Christian dragons have not always been portrayed as "ugly". Because of their supposed ties with the devil, they have often been portrayed as deceptively sleek and elegant, like the serpents, birds of prey and wildcats that they are based upon.

The Chinese (Not Asian you fool) is Beautiful

Flaming aside, "Asian dragon" is an acceptable term, as it encompasses both the Chinese dragon and it's various derived forms (Korean, Japanese, etc.), all of which share several basic elements. After all, the dragons of European mythology are even more diverse, yet we use the term "European dragon" quite comfortably.

 

[aronnax]

Mirc, your idea of beauty is quite perverse. Those European Dragons are the ugliest I ever seen. And once again, you try to win an argument without even looking at facts. If European Dragons are so beautiful, tell me why they are written off in mythology as monsters?

Forget reading books, try my post first and stop ignoring my facts. Baby steps Mirc

@ Traitorfish. Christianity had always a long fling with Europe. Most European culture is somehow derived, crafted or influence by Christianity. Much like how Hinduism and Buddhism shaped India. Most of these Pre-Christian Dragons have been forgotten and those that still stay in Mythology of different European Cultures are those during the Christian Era, most notably the one Saint George killed.

Asia is a large continent. The dragon we are talking about can be found in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia and Mongolia. Theres still large swaths of land not covered. So that Dragon is not an Asian Dragon. I hate it when people use Asian to call an Sinnic thing.

 

[Mirc]

Mirc, your idea of beauty is quite perverse. Those European Dragons are the ugliest I ever seen. And once again, you try to win an argument without even looking at facts. If European Dragons are so beautiful, tell me why they are written off in mythology as monsters?

I was trying to prove that they aren't so often seen as monsters, but apparently you already assume that they are when you try to convince me. I was trying to prove that they are so resemblant to the Asian dragons. Even the flag of Wales, for example, has a big red dragon on it.

 

[aronnax]

How on earth do they resemble Asian dragons?

For on Chinese Dragons dont have large wings or three heads (Slavic) They control water, the weather and seas, not breathe fire. They arent killed to save damsels in distress and win treasure, they are seen as divine. They have origins as large Fish, snakes or crocodiles, not a dinosaur with wings

No I dont see the simmilarities between your Metal Salamder Birds and my Dragon

 

[Mirc]

How on earth do they resemble Asian dragons?

For on Chinese Dragons dont have large wings or three heads (Slavic) They control water, the weather and seas, not breathe fire. They arent killed to save damsels in distress and win treasure, they are seen as divine.

No I dont see the simmilarities between your Metal Salamder Birds and my Dragon

You are unable to get what I meant. Sorry, but this is hopeless. I'm out of this discussion.

 

[aronnax]

You are unable to get what I meant. Sorry, but this is hopeless. I'm out of this discussion.

Oh I understand what you are trying to say. Your trying to say European Dragons arent potrayed as monster. Trouble is that its kind of hard to buy that load when the Patron Saint to 10+ countries has to feed a Princess to it and then slays it to convert people.

Its better your out of this discussion...You could not win it if you tried.

 

[Mirc]

Oh I understand what you are trying to say. Your trying to say European Dragons arent potrayed as monster. Trouble is that its kind of hard to buy that load when the Patron Saint to 10+ countries has to feed a Princess to it and then slays it to convert people.

Its better your out of this discussion...You could not win it if you tried.

Wow, you're more... (ok I'm gonna abstain I don't want to get banned) than I thought.

I was trying to say that just as the Asian dragons are varied and represented in many ways with many purposes, the European dragons are incredibly varied and it is absolutely absurd to say that "that one is ugly and that one is beautiful" just because you learned in school that anything that's Asian is bigger and better than anything else in the world. THAT is what I meant when I told you to look at the resemblances between them.

 

[Traitorfish]

@ Traitorfish. Christianity had always a long fling with Europe. Most European culture is somehow derived, crafted or influence by Christianity. Much like how Hinduism and Buddhism shaped India. Most of these Pre-Christian Dragons have been forgotten and those that still stay in Mythology of different European Cultures are those during the Christian Era, most notably the one Saint George killed.

True, but that's not the point. The fact is that the "European dragon" is not universally seen as a monstrous, ugly destroyer. Regardless of how well known pre-Christian images of the dragon are (and they're better known than you think- Wales, anyone?), they do exist, not to mention the fact that dragons appear more frequently in modern fantasy than they ever do in medieval folklore, and they are hardly portrayed as universally diabolical in that context.
And, as I already said, even the monstrous Christian dragon was not always shown to be ugly. Let's not forget that the dragon was commonly associated with the Serpent, a creature who's greatest role in Christian, shall we say, "mythology" (no offense meant, but I'm trying to take an academic viewpoint here...) was a elegant and beguiling deceiver, not simply as a violent brute.

 

[Quildavyr]

Dragons and peace!

Very logical

 

[Pannonius]

And all this is connected with eagles?