Early Christian Heresies

Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
15,602
Subscription post for me, with a question that I should remember the answer to but don't.

What are the "big disagreements" so to speak, between mainstream Christianity and Arianism, and between the mainstream and Gnosticism? Are there any other major heresies from the early years (say, up to 800 CE?). I know I have read several pages on this from different books, but nothing seems to stick.

That's a question worth its own thread if ever I saw one. There are vast numbers of heresies from the first eight centuries, even if you only count the major ones.

On Arianism, "Arianism" is a name given (by their opponents) to several different schools of thought in the fourth century, which disagreed with each other sometimes more virulently than they did with the non-Arians. But what they had in common was that they thought that the Son does not share the Father's divine nature. Some of them thought that he shares everything else that the Father has, and some of them thought that he's quite dissimilar. The Nicenes, by contrast, thought that the Father and Son are one in nature although they are distinct in person. Their view won out at the council of Constantinople in 381.

There were, similarly, many different groups clumped under the heading "gnostic", and the picture is further confused by the fact that some Christians now considered "mainstream" called themselves "gnostics" even while they attacked the people we now call "gnostics" (Clement of Alexandria is an example). But basically gnosticism proper involved the claim that the physical world is fundamentally wrong, a mistake or evil, and salvation consists of escaping from it, armed with special saving knowledge; it typically involved complex mythologies to explain how the world came to be, often involving many divine or quasi-divine beings; and there was always a strong distinction between those "in the know" and the ignorant sheeplike people who didn't have access to these special teachings. Mainstream Christianity (to the extent that one can talk about such a thing at that time), by contrast, taught that the world is the good creation of God, that there is only one God, and that the true teachings of Christ and his apostles - and the salvation they make possible - are publicly available to everyone.

From the new questions thread, but this is something that would be interesting to see a real discussion on. We can be a bit flexible on the definition of early.

As I remember, the converted Saxons were Arian and some of this was political (i.e. the early church leaders had more influence within the bounds of the Roman Empire than over the Germanic tribes). From what I understand of Plontinus' post, the Muslim concept of Jesus (and by extension Muhammad) as simply a prophet or messenger but not a god himself would be in line with Arianism.

So who were the major gnostic groups? Which were the most influential?
 
This must be the first time that the first question has been judged worth its own thread.

What happened, in the end, to the 'heretical' countries outside the Roman Empire? I know that several peoples, such as the Goths and the Vandals, subscribed wholesale to the minority sects of early Christianity, but there seems to be no non-Catholic Christianity left in Western Europe by the Middle Ages. What happened?
 
This must be the first time that the first question has been judged worth its own thread.

What happened, in the end, to the 'heretical' countries outside the Roman Empire? I know that several peoples, such as the Goths and the Vandals, subscribed wholesale to the minority sects of early Christianity, but there seems to be no non-Catholic Christianity left in Western Europe by the Middle Ages. What happened?

I'll second this.

I had asked a similar question before about what the religious state of Barbaricum was during this time period, but my question proved to have enough nuances that it needed too much of an explanation without really ever getting to the heart of what I was trying to find out. So I guess I should elaborate on this question that it might be helpful to address who believed what (as far as official state practice was concerned) and what ended up happening to it. Obviously, so-called heretical thought continued long after, but there does seem to be a gap before the Reformation when there was only really Catholicism in the west, but I could be wrong (and I'm curious to find out more about the chronology of the whole thing).

If I had to guess, Charlemagne had a lot to do with it with the Arab conquest taking care of the Vandals, etc. in Africa and Spain.
 
What happened, in the end, to the 'heretical' countries outside the Roman Empire? I know that several peoples, such as the Goths and the Vandals, subscribed wholesale to the minority sects of early Christianity, but there seems to be no non-Catholic Christianity left in Western Europe by the Middle Ages. What happened?

The Germanic kingdoms (to which I assume you are referring) were predominantly Catholic; their Arian elite wisely made no attempt to change this. Also, ofcourse, the most influential of these kingdoms converted to Catholicism (the Franks). The Saxons in the OP were forcibly converted to Catholicism under Charlemagne (there wasn't a Saxon kingdom though, as far as I know).

Then, with the advance of Islam, the Vandals and Visigoths disappeared from North Africa and Spain. So basically there were no Arian kingdoms left.
 
There are stories of persecutions inside the Roman Empire by Arian Kings (granted from the point of view of Catholic Roman subjects who would have reasons to exaggerate persecutions). Why wouldn't the same be true inside Barbarian territories too if the people were of a different religion than their King? I'm thinking predominantly of the Ostrogoths and the Lombards, but also ones I know very little about (e.g., Thuringians) who had prominence in the region.
 
As I remember, the converted Saxons were Arian and some of this was political (i.e. the early church leaders had more influence within the bounds of the Roman Empire than over the Germanic tribes). From what I understand of Plontinus' post, the Muslim concept of Jesus (and by extension Muhammad) as simply a prophet or messenger but not a god himself would be in line with Arianism.

No, this is a common misconception. The Arians didn't think that Jesus was a mere man (though a great prophet). They thought that he was the incarnate Son of God. They just thought that the Son doesn't share the divine nature of the Father. So a closer parallel to ancient Arianism would be the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that Jesus was an incarnate archangel.

So who were the major gnostic groups? Which were the most influential?

No-one quite knows, because no-one can agree on how to categorise them or what to call them. Basically we have non-gnostic sources - notably Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian, and a few others - who tell us what the gnostics believed and describe the various sects. Then we also have a load of texts, mostly discovered in the twentieth century, which correspond more or less to these descriptions and are therefore considered to be texts by these same gnostic groups. But because they don't match perfectly, no-one can quite be sure which text belongs with which group, whether the traditional accounts of the different groups are accurate in the first place, or anything really.

The main groups seem to have been the Sethians and the Valentinians. This alone is tricky, though, given that the Sethians may (or may not) be identical with another bunch called the Barbelites; and the Valentinians seem to have been split into a number of small groups, notably the eastern and western wings.

This must be the first time that the first question has been judged worth its own thread.

What happened, in the end, to the 'heretical' countries outside the Roman Empire? I know that several peoples, such as the Goths and the Vandals, subscribed wholesale to the minority sects of early Christianity, but there seems to be no non-Catholic Christianity left in Western Europe by the Middle Ages. What happened?


This isn't correct. Arianism had died out long before that. JEELEN's answer is right, that the Vandal/Goth/whatever elite, although Arian themselves, found themselves ruling non-Arian populations (it's rather anachronistic and confusing to refer to the non-Arians as "Catholics", since the Arians were also Catholics - they didn't have their own church organisation as the Donatists did). Arianism had never had any success to speak of in the Roman west (the main exception being parts of Italy, notably Milan, where Ambrose had devoted great energies to out-PRing them). The barbarian rulers wisely decided not to interfere with the religious beliefs of their subjects and left them alone, and after a couple of centuries they all converted to Nicene Christianity anyway.

The reason, by the way, that the barbarians were all Arians to start with was that they were converted by Ulfilas, who spent four decades working with the Goths in the fourth century. Ulfilas was a Homoian (the main kind of Arianism), so they became Homoians too.

Note, also, that for most of the second half of the fourth century the Roman empire was officially Homoian as well, or very close to it, because this was the version of Christianity favoured by Constantius II and most of his successors (at least, the ones who cared) until Theodosius the Great. So the fact that the Goths were converting to the same kind of Christianity as the Roman emperors was diplomatically rather useful too. This also indicates what a huge challenge it was for Theodosius to reach his settlements with the Goths in the 370s, given that he was passionately anti-Arian; the fact that he achieved a lasting peace with them despite this is testament to his diplomatic ability.

Also note that the Franks don't fit into this pattern. They converted later, and they were Nicenes from the start, never Arians.

There are stories of persecutions inside the Roman Empire by Arian Kings (granted from the point of view of Catholic Roman subjects who would have reasons to exaggerate persecutions). Why wouldn't the same be true inside Barbarian territories too if the people were of a different religion than their King? I'm thinking predominantly of the Ostrogoths and the Lombards, but also ones I know very little about (e.g., Thuringians) who had prominence in the region.

I would guess that a big part of the reason was that the barbarian kings wanted to preserve Roman culture as best they could. They were impressed by it and sought political legitimacy by identifying with it. You see that both with the Ostrogoths in Italy - where they theoretically ruled in the name of the emperor - and with the Visigoths in Spain.
 
This also indicates what a huge challenge it was for Theodosius to reach his settlements with the Goths in the 370s, given that he was passionately anti-Arian; the fact that he achieved a lasting peace with them despite this is testament to his diplomatic ability.
And, surely, his military ability?
 
The other two notable heresies where Nestorianism and Pelagianism. I would make comments about them, but it will take some time. Even though I have been reading about them, it is hard to get my mind wrapped around them. It would seem to me though that they were called heresies at the time because those in charge decided they were, because they went against the grain of current thought. IMO their ideas ended up in various ways part of the church depending on the consensus of each new generation. For instance Augustine wrote against Pelagius, but he was also influential in later Protestant thought while the church headed more in a Pelagian view instead of Augustine's.

It seems we only view "Christianity" through the lens of the Catholic Church setting. But that would do injustice to how rapidly it spread throughout the whole Roman world and also throughout what was left of the Greek speaking world. Add to that the spread through some Jewish sympathizers who adhered to Jesus as the Messiah. The latter being overwhelmed by the spread of Islam. The Greek speaking part splitting off as the Eastern Orthodox church. IMO "heresy" was just an excuse to silence dissenting thought that would cause a loss of peace and or political clout.
 
The Catholic church doesn't consider the Greek church to be heretics, just schismatists, if I understand correctly (whether that's true in reverse is a bit tricky) although they've certainly had some differences that might be considered to be of belief as opposed to church practice. Both consider the other to be part of the same universal church. At a minimum, both are the organized church. I think the discussion has been focused more on the organized church vs. other sects of Christianity. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone has been making a distinction between the Roman and Greek churches here.
 
And, surely, his military ability?

No doubt. He was generally pretty able.

The other two notable heresies where Nestorianism and Pelagianism. I would make comments about them, but it will take some time. Even though I have been reading about them, it is hard to get my mind wrapped around them. It would seem to me though that they were called heresies at the time because those in charge decided they were, because they went against the grain of current thought. IMO their ideas ended up in various ways part of the church depending on the consensus of each new generation. For instance Augustine wrote against Pelagius, but he was also influential in later Protestant thought while the church headed more in a Pelagian view instead of Augustine's.

I think it's rather tendentious to say that the church went Pelagian after Augustine. One could arguably say that it went a bit semi-Pelagian. At any rate, Augustine remained incredibly influential on medieval Catholicism - it's not like the Protestants rediscovered him. During the Reformation, both sides quoted him extensively against each other. Remember that although his anti-Pelagian works might have seemed more in tune with Protestantism, his anti-Donatist works were far more in tune with Catholicism. Augustine thought that membership of the Catholic Church was essential for salvation.

It seems we only view "Christianity" through the lens of the Catholic Church setting. But that would do injustice to how rapidly it spread throughout the whole Roman world and also throughout what was left of the Greek speaking world. Add to that the spread through some Jewish sympathizers who adhered to Jesus as the Messiah. The latter being overwhelmed by the spread of Islam. The Greek speaking part splitting off as the Eastern Orthodox church.

Don't forget the Aramaic-speaking church, which geographically speaking was larger than the Latin- and Greek-speaking ones put together. These were the people dismissed as "Nestorian" after the council of Ephesus, but they spread beyond the Persian empire into central Asia, India, and Indonesia.

IMO "heresy" was just an excuse to silence dissenting thought that would cause a loss of peace and or political clout.

That could sometimes be the case. But I think that's something of an anachronism, applying modern ways of thinking to antiquity or the Middle Ages. People really did believe this stuff and it really did matter to them. There were serious theological reasons for rejecting the various ideas that came to be considered heretical. Of course, the "heretics" had serious theological reasons for holding them, too, and perhaps often one set of reasons won out over the other because it was favoured by the secular powers; but that doesn't mean the theological reasons weren't there. After all, remember that these squabbles were going on long before the church enjoyed any peace or political clout; Irenaeus was not in a position of any political power at all when he wrote extensively against the gnostics. The same goes for Augustine when he wrote even more extensively against Pelagianism. And it has to be said that Augustine had pretty good reasons for rejecting Pelagianism - after all, if Pelagius had had his way, all Christians would have been forced to live like monks and there would have been no room for any failure to meet his impossibly high standards. Augustine recognised that the church was made up of normal human beings, something Pelagius could never accept.
 
I think it's rather tendentious to say that the church went Pelagian after Augustine. One could arguably say that it went a bit semi-Pelagian. At any rate, Augustine remained incredibly influential on medieval Catholicism - it's not like the Protestants rediscovered him. During the Reformation, both sides quoted him extensively against each other. Remember that although his anti-Pelagian works might have seemed more in tune with Protestantism, his anti-Donatist works were far more in tune with Catholicism. Augustine thought that membership of the Catholic Church was essential for salvation.

I was not attempting to take sides on the issues at all, and some ideas that I probably take for granted or have not even formed a strong opinion on happen to be the topic of the thread.

Don't forget the Aramaic-speaking church, which geographically speaking was larger than the Latin- and Greek-speaking ones put together. These were the people dismissed as "Nestorian" after the council of Ephesus, but they spread beyond the Persian empire into central Asia, India, and Indonesia.

I have no excuse to be in the dark, and as pointed out, most of what I have read is through the lens of the Catholic church. One of the reasons, I am leery of the usage of the word heresy, every time some one feels the need to employ it.

That could sometimes be the case. But I think that's something of an anachronism, applying modern ways of thinking to antiquity or the Middle Ages. People really did believe this stuff and it really did matter to them. There were serious theological reasons for rejecting the various ideas that came to be considered heretical. Of course, the "heretics" had serious theological reasons for holding them, too, and perhaps often one set of reasons won out over the other because it was favoured by the secular powers; but that doesn't mean the theological reasons weren't there. After all, remember that these squabbles were going on long before the church enjoyed any peace or political clout; Irenaeus was not in a position of any political power at all when he wrote extensively against the gnostics. The same goes for Augustine when he wrote even more extensively against Pelagianism. And it has to be said that Augustine had pretty good reasons for rejecting Pelagianism - after all, if Pelagius had had his way, all Christians would have been forced to live like monks and there would have been no room for any failure to meet his impossibly high standards. Augustine recognised that the church was made up of normal human beings, something Pelagius could never accept.

There is a fine line between how humans think today and back then. Is not the US itself allegedly going through a culture "war" not unlike the pre-Constantine church? It seems to me that if Christians have their way, they would jump at the chance to take control of the helm in the US if given the opportunity.

I am not downplaying the importance of working out these issue nor can I blame them for calling them heresy, since that word was clearly used to keep beliefs on the straight and narrow path. I used "political clout", because clearly the church viewed itself to be endowed with a powerful authority that they obviously felt they had, even if modern humans have rejected the concept. The whole church was set up with a hierarchy structure which seemed to be more defined after every single issue came up. I may be wrong, but while the Roman empire was crumbling, there was a group of people armed with Greek philosophy and a formal structure of governing coming to the fore to take over.
 
I used "political clout", because clearly the church viewed itself to be endowed with a powerful authority that they obviously felt they had, even if modern humans have rejected the concept. The whole church was set up with a hierarchy structure which seemed to be more defined after every single issue came up.

It is important to keep a firm view of chronology here because depending upon where you lived and what time period you lived in ecclesiastical authority meant different things. Alexandria, for example, is well known in modern scholarship for having a remarkably late first "bishop." Rowan Williams correctly (I think) points out that a large part of the original Arius-Alexander of Alexandria dispute is a result of a conflict between the traditional powers of the presbyters versus the "upstart" powers of the relatively new Alexandrian bishop. Early Christian church orders are quite clear evidence of shifting views of authority. In the earliest, the Didache, prophets seem to the most powerful figures. Apostolic Tradition and Didascalia both show evidence for the importance of non-hierarchical authorities including, but not limited to, Christian patrons, women, ascetics, confessors, and non-ordained teachers.

With regards to political clout, it is again a matter of when and where you are. Sure you have people like Ambrose who stated, "The emperor, indeed, is within the church not above the church." On the other hand you have Emperor Constantius "Let whatever I will, be that esteemed a canon." In fact in the first five centuries in the eastern part of the Roman Empire there is only one(!) claim of ecclesiastical supremacy over the Emperor, in the non-Nicene Psuedo-Ignatius' Letter to the Philadelphians 4. Most "political" powers held by members of the church stemmed from their role as patron and thus complimented (or perhaps replaced in some areas) the already existing local monied elites.
 
That could sometimes be the case. But I think that's something of an anachronism, applying modern ways of thinking to antiquity or the Middle Ages. People really did believe this stuff and it really did matter to them.
How literate was Bob the Farmer with regards to theology during the Middle Ages and Late Antiquity? Based off comments you have made and other reading I have done it seems they were relatively knowledgeable on the subject but I find that difficult to reconcile with the limited 'learning' that most people had.
 
How literate was Bob the Farmer with regards to theology during the Middle Ages and Late Antiquity? Based off comments you have made and other reading I have done it seems they were relatively knowledgeable on the subject but I find that difficult to reconcile with the limited 'learning' that most people had.

People in urban areas would have been hearing sermons, even if they weren't literate. I've read that the Arians used songs to communicate their ideas to the Constantinopolitan mob, so people could learn some key facts in simple ways. And at certain times and places key points of theology would be obvious from Christian praxis: the absence of divine images, the drinking of Jesus' blood, baptism, etc.
 
You'd be surprised. There's a famous passage by Gregory of Nyssa describing the atmosphere in Constantinople at the time of the second ecumenical council (380):

Gregory of Nyssa said:
The whole city is full of it, the squares, the market places, the cross-roads, the alleyways; old-clothes men, money changers, food sellers: they are all busy arguing. If you ask someone to give you change, he philosophizes about the Begotten and the Unbegotten; if you inquire about the price of a loaf, you are told by way of reply that the Father is greater and the Son inferior; if you ask “Is my bath ready?” the attendant answers that the Son was made out of nothing.

Perhaps that's a Byzantine peculiarity and, say, the average person in western Europe in the eleventh century wouldn't have been like that. But still, even if they lacked theological sophistication, that doesn't mean they didn't believe. You don't have to have a theological education to have deep religious belief that gives you a powerful motivation to act in a certain way.

At any rate, though, I was responding to timtofly's suggestion that "heretics" were condemned primarily for political reasons of one kind or another. The people doing the condemnation were certainly theologically educated. I was just saying that we shouldn't be so quick to assume that they were cynical in their actions or that they weren't sincere in their belief that the "heresies" being condemned were genuinely spiritually dangerous. That remains true whether or not ordinary people were following the debates.
 
The Catholic church doesn't consider the Greek church to be heretics, just schismatic.

This understanding is based on the decree Unitatis redintegratio of the second Vatican council which effectively stated that the "authentic theological traditions" of the Eastern Orthodox Church can often be considered complimentary to Latin theology. The relevant quote being

Unitatis Redingretatio said:
In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God's truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth

However what this actually means is debatable since as you can read, the document is very vague. Some (the more traditional view) hold in much the same way as many Eastern Orthodox theologians, that there are significant theological doctrinal differences (such Purgatory, the filioque, God as actus purus and others) and that these, despite the relative closeness between the two churches (particularly compared to the Protestant heresies), and the merits of their other "authentic theological traditions" that aren't dogmatically heterodox and are complimentary in terms of theological insight, make Eastern Orthodoxy on the whole a heresy. The decree from Vatican II doesn't contradict this view.

Others (the more popular view at present due to the modern fashion for ecumenism) uphold that these doctrinal differences are mostly due to differing conceptual frameworks and misunderstandings and are fully in complementarity, with the consequence (considering EO apostolic succession and the like) that despite their schism that they are not essentially heretical. The advocates of this view often point to John Paul II who said that "two lungs' of the Church (speaking of Eastern and Latin branches, and their differing theological emphases, rather than the Eastern Orthodox Church being the same as the Catholic Church ofc) should breathe together, equating this as "official' (although it was merely his personal opinion). However as to my own view, considering that it is evident that there are large theological differences in dogmatic and doctrinal matters, the former position is more reasonable than the latter.
 
Well, just commenting on the Filioque since I have a little understanding of it based on research I did for the 1053 schism (although it was actually more of an issue for the Photian Schism): it's a lot more nuanced than that.

Some in the Eastern Orthodox church don't have a problem with the filioque per se, their objection being that it wasn't added in an Ecumenical Council. While the Catholic church certainly agrees that it isn't wrong to omit the filioque. In fact, one argument is that it's just a language thing. The Latin word procedere and the Greek word used have slightly different meanings. Under this argument, it would actually be wrong to add "and the son" to the Greek version while some meaning would be lost to omit it from the Latin version. The Eastern church, on the other hand, argues that it could change the nature of the Trinity or, at a minimum, is a misplaced emphasis that could be interpreted to change the Trinity's nature.

Really, the filioque is what I had in mind when I said the Catholic church doesn't consider the Orthodox church to be heretical, while this might not be true in reverse. Certainly, one could say the Nicene Creed in Greek without "and the son" and not contradict Catholic teaching.

The biggest differences back in 1053 were these. I'm not sure if new ones have been identified since:

* The nature of the Pope's authority - From my understanding, the Eastern Church does recognize that the Pope would be the head of a unified church, but believes its closer to a First Among Equals type thing. They object to the doctrine of the Pope speaking Ex Cathedra and believe all decisions of orthodoxy should be determined by Ecumenical Council. At the time they were a big believer in the Pentarchy, but I'm uncertain how that's changed with the growth of the Patriarch of Moscow since then.

* The Filioque. I don't need to elaborate anymore here (I'm not saying I'm right in anything I say, though, mind you, just that I've said all I can say).

* The use of unleavened vs. leavened bread. The Azyme controversy was actually the biggest one of the time. There's some symbolic arguments the Eastern Church makes for why theirs is better, there's an argument about historic practice of the Last Supper that the Western Church makes for unleavened bread. I'm not positive how doctrinal any of these things are these days, but the Eucharist is of central ritual importance so I'm not going to dismiss this one as irrelevant these days.

* Celibacy in the Priesthood. Pope Francis has recently said that this is a matter of church practice, not orthodoxy and it's not theologically wrong for a Priest to marry. My understanding is that the Orthodox church doesn't encourage marriage of their Priests but they'll allow already married individuals to become Priests (I could be wrong about this). I understand the Catholic church does grant special dispensations to allow married individuals to become Priests (since, obviously, divorce isn't an option). It happens rarely, but it happened with some Anglican Priests who converted to Catholicism.

* Whether Priests should be clean-shaven or grow beards. I'm not commenting on this one. I don't think it's relevant anymore and hopefully wasn't really all that relevant in 1053 beyond Cardinal Humbert's vitriolic tirade.
 
Pope Francis has recently said that this is a matter of church practice, not orthodoxy and it's not theologically wrong for a Priest to marry.

Correction: It is not theologically impermissible for married men to become priests (and indeed it occurs in the eastern rites of the Catholic Church). Priests after they are ordained to Holy Orders cannot become subsequently married, this is also the practice in the Eastern Orthodox Church iirc.
 
I think that was made clear in the subsequent sentences in that paragraph I wrote :)
 
Back
Top Bottom