1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Early tech tree too linear?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by gladoscc, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. gladoscc

    gladoscc Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    125
    I feel that the early tech tree is too linear. Take your first tech:

    Mining is useless, as you don't need it for the first 7 turns or so, you won't even have a worker yet.
    Archery is useful only if you are trying to bowman rush. Otherwise, you can delay it for at least one tech.
    Animal husbandry: Again, you can delay this.
    Pottery: Unlocks Writing, and allows you to build the first religious building, as well as a granary. With science being so important in this game, Pottery is the #1 first tech.

    Do you feel the first tech is too linear and consistent?
     
  2. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

    Joined:
    May 11, 2009
    Messages:
    663
    Animal, Archery, Wheel, chariot rush

    Meh. I don't really agree. Depends on the civ and the map. And the difficulty, I suppose, but playing at Emperor a lot I do often go pottery but not necessarily writing right away. I'm more likely to go calendar + masonry/bronze
     
  3. BigBadBear

    BigBadBear Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I usually look at the luxuries near me first. I probably don't have the right starting build order, but I usually go monument>worker>scout. So I aim to get the techs for the luxuries done first, then look at the other options. I do try to get pottery out as fast as possible for the pantheon, though.
     
  4. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    England
    If I have silver/gold/gems, then mining first makes sense. Sure, you can delay it for one turn, but you delay pottery for one turn too.

    Also, if my star has some cows/sheep then animal husbandry first is a no brainer.


    But I do agree that I go pottery first more often than the others. Unlocking both calendar and writing is very powerful, as most games I will want stonehenge and/or great library.
     
  5. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    959
    Location:
    UK
    I do think that the tech tree is too linear (I hate how obvious the military/culture/science/sailing "tracks" are in the tree), but I actually find the early game to be the best.....you really have to think about what you want your 5th or 6th tech to be.
     
  6. _hero_

    _hero_ King

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    701
    I usually research Animal Husbandry first for the chance at horses and the production boost they provide. By the time my Scout+Monument is done I usually have Pottery as well anyway. The exception would be if I have a particularly productive starting point, then I do Pottery first.
     
  7. LostInTime

    LostInTime Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2011
    Messages:
    161
    Settle on top of mining lux, research mining first sell instantly when mining is done.

    Steal AI worker the first couple of turns, and mining first is awesome for that early wonder. (the mine is done for when you start it)

    It all depends on your start, civ, plan and difficulty.
     
  8. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    552
    Agree that pottery is pretty much always my no-brainer first tech to research. But I disagree that the tree is linear...I actually think that G&K improved it vastly over the vanilla tree, and makes for more difficult decisions when it comes to the techs to research after pottery (I don't always go writing, unless I'm playing as Babylon).

    Why mining often makes sense as your #2 tech:
    -Obviously you'll sometimes have luxury resources which require a mine to extract.
    -Allows you to chop forests, which might be necessary to get to a resource as well as providing the production boost.
    -Leads to Bronze Working, which allows barracks (useful) and spearmen (also useful), plus allows chopping of jungle (which seems to be important in most of my games since G&K).
    -Leads to Masonry, which allows walls (often crucial on high difficulties), quarries (if you have stone &/or marble), and clearing marshes.
    -Leads to Construction, which allows composite bowmen (big unit on any difficulty), aqueduct (also handy) and Great Wall (which you probably can't build above Prince unless you get to Construction quickly).

    In fact, in the majority of my games the toughest decision I face in the early game is which tech to research second. Getting mining early can be crucial to the military aspect of your game as well as hooking up luxuries/increasing production, but animal husbandry allows you to get the most out of those sweet cattle, horse, and sheep tiles (plus leading to Trapping for deer/furs/truffles/ivory), sailing gets you rolling if you have a coastal start, calendar will often net you multiple early luxuries (plus a shot at Stonehenge), and on.

    I suggest you try varying your tech path in a few games & see some of the advantages you can reap from pushing different paths in your early game.
     
  9. Wolvenheart

    Wolvenheart Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    22
    Totally disagree.

    I often have a worker out by the time my 2nd tech is researched. Having resources to trade can be vital. Depending on nearby luxes that may very well mean that I want to go for mining/masonry or animal handling/trapping.

    First libraries can wait a bit. You get just as much science benefit by getting additional cities up and running asap. Great Library doesn't enter the picture at all at higher difficulties.

    If anything I think the early game has more diversity in legitimate science options than any other stage of the game.
     
  10. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    1,568
    Gender:
    Male
    Pottery is indeed a strong first tech, but not always the best.
    What I dislike much more is the naval tech requirements for archeology...
     
  11. black213

    black213 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,442
    I get workers quite late so I find pottery -> calendar/writing (depending on if I want to be religious or not) to be a better choice.
     
  12. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,380
    I do tend to go for Pottery ASAP, but that's due to my style. I like to found religions (so the Shrine is welcome) and I prioritize GL/NC/SH, so I like to beeline those.

    However, revealing Horses with Animal Husbandry (or much later, Iron with Iron Working in the bottom track) is very useful so you can start planning out your expansion better.

    Mining lets you get access to the earliest luxuries ASAP. You can settle on them, or quickly get a Worker.

    Archery is good for barbarian hunting. I also like it because it unlocks the Temple of Artemis, if you want to do early Wonder building. The growth bonus is nice, and getting it early means you get your first Great Engineer that much earlier too! (Especially when combined with SH and Pyramids).

    Also note that the AI gets Pottery starting at King, and Mining only at Immortal. So at King/Emperor, you are already behind on the top tech path, whereas it is easier to get ahead of the AI if you beeline the lower tech path.
     
  13. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,079
    Location:
    Germany
    You don't get a faster religion with a pottery -> early shrine rush. That's a common misconception.
    If you invest those early hammers into a faster settler and faster worker, you can quickly get +2 faith with two cities instead of +1 faith from your capital only.
    On higher difficulties, it's unlikely to get an early pantheon anyway, so the early +1 faith is a waste of hammers.

    Archery first for Temple of Artemis is strong, animal husbandry can be great on grassland starts or for chariot rushs, mining -> masonry is great for stone heavy starts or early marble.

    It really depends. On lower difficulties, pottery -> writing is probably a no brainer because you can get the Great Library 100% of the time but that's not possible on immortal+.
     
  14. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy King

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Messages:
    710
    I tend to build a worker quite quickly, so I need to make sure it'll have something to do when it comes out. Still, I always try to get Pottery quickly. It pretty much has to be one of your first techs. I tend to neglect archery for a long while, especially if I'm in jungle(because I probably need bronze working anyways, in that case).
     
  15. ahawk

    ahawk King

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    935
    Location:
    Milwaukee
    I'll agree with the OP on the point that Pottery is often a good candidate for the first tech; no matter what civ you are, food is incredibly important early on.

    I disagree with the OP on pretty much the rest of what they said, however:

    Russia wants Animal Husbandry immediately... there's a reason they get a Steam achievement for doing so, for those of us on Steam.

    Mining leads to Masonry, and with enough stone/marble around the capital, it's not unheard of for me to go Mining - Masonry right away, especially since Masonry will often be finished right around when I get my first worker out to build those quarries.

    Even Bronze Working can be important to get. As the Aztecs, I often have most of my luxuries in jungle tiles. Since jungle tiles have to be cleared first, I'll tech to BW and while my worker clears jungle I'll research the appropriate tech for the luxury he's clearing for, that way he can clear the jungle and hopefully be able to improve the tile within a few turns of clearing it.

    Bee-lining to Iron Working is key if you're Rome or Japan even, allowing yourself to see where you'll need to expand to in order to set up an army later.
     
  16. Scam

    Scam Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    I disagree with the OP. I play Emperor most often, sometimes immortal and my usual build order is worker, granary, library. I often grab mining first (even without gold/silver/gems). The reason being that by the time the worker is completed, I can will have mining and pottery and can queue my granary right after. From there, the worker can build mines and farms and can also clear forests. If I have a few forests that I will not need later for production, I will often grab an early wonder of my choice by chopping down forests quickly.

    I think that before GnK, the tech tree was far more linear to start, as early tech was absolutely necessary. Now, if you're a little behind in tech, you can easily steal a few techs mid-game and catch up a bit. It's easy to play Emperor+ without grabbing your national college ASAP, giving the player the freedom to go heavy on the military/economy/culture without feeling like they will definitely lose if they don't go straight science from the start.

    I think it is safe to say that Mining/Pottery then writing/calendar is a standard and strong start.
     
  17. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    USA
    Archery has to be 1st tech on Diety non-island maps or you will die very very soon.
     
  18. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    552
    You cannot build a settler until your capital has grown to at least size 2, and the whole time you're building that early settler your capital is stagnating. I personally don't even think about building a settler until my capital has grown to at least 3, which gives me plenty of time to build 3 items (scout, shrine, and monument/archer depending on difficulty). Plus if you've got the shrine in place, that's +12-ish faith while you're building that settler.

    And of course there are other advantages to waiting a bit longer for your first settler...more time to scout for natural wonders/ideal city sites, time to meet your neighbors & get a better idea on how quickly you're going to be invaded, etc. As far as the first worker goes, 310 :c5gold: on standard, which will quickly pay for itself once you're got a luxury or two to sell.
     
  19. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,079
    Location:
    Germany
    Yeah, bad wording. I never build a settler before I have a worker or before my capital hits 3+ pop.
    I only wanted to say that going Pottery first just for the shrine doesn't necessarily get you a faster religion.
    For example, in the first week of Gnk, I always built a shrine right after I researched Pottery, delaying my monument and the first worker. In the long run, this isn't a great idea because +1 faith isn't that much and it delays expansion, tile yields and luxury selling.
    You can certainly build a shrine before you build a settler, but scout, monument and worker should have a higher priority during the first turns of the game.

    It's very dependant on the map, of course. If you start in a desert, you want to get your pantheon as fast as possible, so scout -> monument -> shrine -> worker might be better.
     
  20. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    552
    I'm thinking that this might be a case of different game settings. With standard timing & on prince-emperor levels, I can generally knock out my shrine in <10 turns once I have the tech, which usually means that I have the shrine up & running before turn 20 (as well as a scout & often my third build)...all you need is a workable tile with 2 :c5food: & 1 :c5production: . In most cases, I'm midway through my fourth build by the time my capital hits 3 pop.

    While 1 :c5faith: isn't a big deal, 1pt over the course of the 30-ish turns between finishing the shrine & founding my second city is, and at least at those levels is usually enough to get my pantheon going. As far as the first worker goes, like I said it can usually be gotten by purchasing it or by stealing one from a neighboring CS. I usually end up getting it right around the time I've unlocked the techs necessary to improve luxury tiles anyway, then sell 1 & use that to buy another archer or save up to purchase another settler, depending on start.

    I can definitely see how this strategy would not work on immortal or deity, especially the latter, though, and in my experience the shrine alone won't net you an early pantheon in most mid-difficulty marathon games either.
     

Share This Page