Earth 18 map, Advantage Greeks or Romans?

[madscientist]

I have become fairly addicted to earth maps and noticed this. Who actually has the advanatge early on, Rome or Greece??? I should prefice this by saying I modded my earth 18 a bit by giving all Civs archery, including myself.

I think Greece. Both start with fishing while Al has Hunting to Rome's Mining. Rome is blocked on 2 sides by other leaders (creative Lou and Isabella who usually gets a religion) and 1 side by land. He can easily be blocked off comepleted by having Al settle the NW copper resource before Fred or Julius. Target the UU and he has a pretty deadly force of exclusive Phalynx which have no counter.

Even Prats do not stack well against Combat I (Al is agressive) Shock promoted UUs and theya re alot more expensive. Plus Al has access to numerous Horse resources.

Opinions from you earth map players???

 

[huerfanista]

Well, I've played Greece on Earth18 (post-3.19) and Rome on Earth34 (pre-3.19) and they're both pretty strong. Let's face it, pretty much any start in Europe is a guaranteed win (I even played and E34 game with Boudica starting in Ireland - a crappy island off the coast of England - and got my 2nd highest score ). Germany is the toughest nut to crack, since they start with hunting, tech archery very quickly, and then get their copper online for axes. Also, they have room to expand to the east and north. Playing as Alex, the key (as you said) is grabbing the copper to the NW. It's very easy to pin Julius and deny him his iron until you get to construction and wipe him out (or sacrifice a bunch of axes early). The same is true in reverse, however - as Rome, settle the copper to the east first and then Alex becomes a non-issue. There are no good production sites nearby, so it's very easy to overwhelm him even after he gets to IW. Izzy and Louie are a joke - they rarely build any kind of military and are easy to take over early on. I usually wait for Louie to build the 'mids for me first, however. And Paris is the best capital on the map. The only thing that saves Liz is that she's across the water. I usually take her out with maces because I'm too busy with other wars early on. So to cut to the chase: both Alex and Julius are lots of fun on this map, and I've won very easily with both of them. I don't think there's much to choose between them in human hands. The only civ on the E18 map that I've struggled with is Mansa. With all the others it's been easy late-18th or early-19th century diplomation wins (with Eurafroasian civs) or easy space wins (with the new worlders).

 

[civver_764]

Rome has access to more civs if you're playing on Prince or below for quick eliminations. You can usually auto raze 2-3 non defended cities with your starting warrior(France, Germany, Spain/Greece) before they get a defender up.

If you wanna play a bit more 'legit' though, I think the Praet is still better for taking over Europe than the Phalanx, which is more of a defensive unit and undoubtedly weaker on the offense.

Elizabeth is my favorite to play on the Earth maps though. Beeline Astronomy(The British isles are so awesome you can usually get it around 300-400 AD) after you grab GLH and mass colonize Australia, South America, Pacific Islands, Carribean Islands. You can get some great tech rates going, and South America is some nice land to base a Space Race on.

Sometimes you get lucky and some good spots in Africa are still left for even extra colonization. I don't usually count on it though.

 

[madscientist]

The thing about Al is he can expand eastward too. In my current game I managed to get 5 cities: Athens, the NW copper (between the pigs and copper), Antolia, Byzantium, and I managed to get the copper/deer area to the east. Hatty and Cyrus are no threat as the Greek UU combats those UUs very nicely.

Fred seams to the issue now, along with Catherine.

You are right about Lou who has just "Donated" the Pyramids and Great Lighthouse to the Greek cause!

 

[huerfanista]

The thing about Al is he can expand eastward too. In my current game I managed to get 5 cities: Athens, the NW copper (between the pigs and copper), Antolia, Byzantium, and I managed to get the copper/deer area to the east. Hatty and Cyrus are no threat as the Greek UU combats those UUs very nicely.

Fred seams to the issue now, along with Catherine.

You are right about Lou who has just "Donated" the Pyramids and Great Lighthouse to the Greek cause!

Yeah, but those eastern cities are very food poor (unless you can claim that juicy Babylon spot - I settle it a bit to the north to grab 3 plains hills, stone, and wheat - it's a commerce and production monster!) compared to europe. With Byzantium, you have to split the fish with Athens, and the good production spot NE is where Cath usually places St. Pete early. Fred is a tough nut, but you really have to take him out before tackling Cath, IMO. She can be a monster with all that land to settle (not to mention some of the best traits to do it with).

 

[Shafi]

Rome has Iron in the BFC - so if you beeline to IW does'nt it make it a lot easier to conquer at least europe and maybe egypt / persia if you are quick ???
Alex's UU is not grest for rushing is it? i tend to use axes instead of the greek UU for rushing so my vote is with Rome.
On noble earth 18, i have taken out everyone except Toku & the american civ's with an extended rush --- i'm sure this is not going to be very feasible too far beyond, anyways at my level definitely Rome

 

[Kesshi]

madscientist,

Rome, by far. First off both leaders are awesome Organized leaders. (You can mod the mod to use Aggy if you don't like JC.) And while Philosophical (Greek leaders) is powerful, it's not so much in most Earth maps, at least not compared to other European starts.

Organized favors large empires. The larger your empire, the more use you get out of Org. Philosophical can have 100% of it's use with as few as 4 or 5 cities. As your empire grows, Philosophical doesn't increas in usefulness, at least not the way Organized does.

Leader Traits favors Rome

Unique Units are pretty much a no-brainer. A Phalnax is a great unit without counter until the Horse Archer or Ballista Elephant. Costing 70 hammers is a very cheap early rush unit. However Prateroians are the be-all powerhouse UU. Praetorians have no counter until Crossbowmen or Macemen. Ballista Elephants do well against them, however Elephants receive no defensive bonuses. Since Rome is guaranteed to start with Iron on the Earth map, you know you can always build Prats so long as you can get Iron Working.

Unique Unit favors Rome

Starting location is another big one. Most people tend to settle in place and be happy. In almost every Earth map I've seen, it is very worthwhile to move east or southeast with Rome. If you wanted to go nuts, you could move 2N and settle on the Wheat for a 3F city tile, with 2 seafood and pigs. Regardless, lets compare resources:

Rome, settling in place nets you: 1 Fish, 1 Clam, 1 Irrigated Wheat, 1 Wine, 1 Iron, and 1 Marble.
Greece, settling in place nets you: 2 fish, 1 Marble, 1 Wine (on an island.)

Rome, on a river, and lots of rivers nearby.
Greece, no rivers, no fresh water.

Rome, lots of grasslands.
Greece, lots of plains.

Rome, can move initial Settler to many different places for many different openings.
Greece, options are limited.

About the only thing Greece has superior to Rome in this aspect is that Greece can expand peacefully easier. Not to say Rome can't expand peacefully, but it's just tighter as the Germans tend to close you off to the east very quickly, and expanding into French is asking for culture problems. And when Rome can't expand peacefully, they can expand with Praetorians.

Starting Location favors Rome

Unique Buildings is where Greece shines. An Odeon is a very handy buildings which never goes obsolete and is always in style. Happiness, Happiness per 20% Culture, and bonus Culture. A very very powerful building which only gets better as your empire expands. The Roman Forum, while a powerful UB, doesn't do a whole lot for a larger empire. See the rant about Philosophy above, much of that applies here.

Unique Building favors Greece

Overall, Rome has far more advantages than Greece. Both are strong civilizations and every Earth map I've seen gives them both strong starting positions, but I think that Rome is the clear winner here.

 

[civvver]

Like everyone has said, you can axe rush europe with any civ in europe and win. But rome in the hands of a human is quite simply the best. Praets are just so much better than axes, considering most of the ai will be defending with archers, not aggressive axemen. In multiplayer I supposed it'd be closer, shock axes being a lot cheaper than praets, but just remember you have to go the shock route to be really effective and thus losing the more all around useful city raider promo.

Also it's been mentioned, but julius has amazing war traits. I love imperialistic and organized is awesome for keeping the costs down. The only other leader I consider close to julius in terms of difficulty on this map is cyrus actually. It's not hard to rush asoka with immortals and even protective saladin, and if you go nuts, push up and take out alex. Cyrus has nice war traits too, and the fertile cresent is nice land.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Whether you rush Europe, or restrict yourself, not rushing it, and rushing Egypt etc. instead, Rome is the best.

 

[BarrageQueen]

You can make Athens a super early capital by moving onto the plains hill. Gain sheep as well as getting the extra hammer in the city tile. Pump out fish boats super quick to get the Balkan Cu site as well as Turkey on marble. That said, Rome is Rome. No one in Europe can defend vs. an early prat rush except maybe Fred.

 

[madscientist]

I do not doubt Rome's abilities, but I think I will make more of an argument for Greece.

Starting Traits:

I am going to say Al has the advantage early on here. Let's face it, a european nation involves LOT'S of early warring and Al is Agressive. CHeap Barracks, free Combat I to melee especially his UU, Access to horses. Philosophical is big as Al can run a strong SE game, bulbing to education where he get's those cheap Universities during the period where he starts to peacefully rebuild the empire.

Julius on the other hand has traits that do not help early on. Rome does NOT need to ever build a settler and can just take all the cities he want's, thus IMP loses one of it's big advantages, the early REX. ORG is powerful later one, but early on it's lone benefit is the cheap lighthouse (which is pretty decent). Once Europe is locked down, ORG kicks in.

UUs

A PHalynx versus Prat, barracks promoted

Prat defender without terrain, 5.5 Phalynx with shock vs 8.8 combat I Prat (-75%) = 5.5:2.8 (am I right here???)

Phalynx defender without terrain, 8.8 Prat vs 5.5 Phalynx with shock (+75%) = 8.8:9.25.

Both times the Phalynx get's an edge.

Land:

Both leaders have iron in the BFC and the game really depends on who get's that key early copper.

JC has alot of early culture pressure from Lou up north and Issy to the west while Al has room to expand (I am playing the base 18 Civ game mind you). This means if he agressively settles he can have numerous cities pumping out barracks (cheap) promoted Phalynx. In my game I have 5 cities pumping them out while Rome was cutoff as 1 lone city.

Rome has better land in the long run, but Athens is not exactly like Ghengis Khan's start.

Techpath/starting techs

Julius has mining and can research BW/IW right off the bat while getting his seafood up and going! Iron is on a rivered hill so he does not even need the wheel! Great for the human, however the AI Ceasar does not do this (In my game the stupid Roman AI built the Great Wall for me).

Al needs 3 techs, mining/BW/wheel which can be teched faster than BW/IW although connecting the copper takes longer (settler and raod needed).

Warring Strat

Seams that Rome can be very vulnerable here. Cut his land off and tech sailing for a galley. While you major Phalynx force marches from the north, landing 2 shock promoted Phalynx on JC iron and pillaging it pretty much will do Rome in.

Greece on the other hand should have several cities and offer a better defense than JC.

All this said, Rome is my next civlization to play after AL, so my opinions may change then! I am simply playing them in order on the list, winning space with Hatty and Asoka, and a UN diplomatic/domination win with Qin!

As I said, I have gotten a great appreciation for these earth maps lately! IS there a link where I can download the 34 leader mod??? How about other earth maps with the newer leaders??? The mod forum can be endlessly complicated sometimes.

 

[Lone Wolf]

IS there a link where I can download the 34 leader mod???

Earth34 is here.

The attachment in that post contains a 18civ Earth map from RFC with Europe being upscaled, Native America replacing the USA, Byzantium replacing Greece and Khmer replacing the Romans, since we've already talked about Rome and Greece. Agg AI, No Tech Brokering and Choose Religions are on by default.

A Phalynx versus Prat, barracks promoted

The point is comparing Praets and Phalanxes to other units (units of the civs you'll rush), not comparing them to each other.

 

[Gooblah]

The thing is, Rome only needs two cities; Rome, and one to claim the Copper/Iron to the north to become a production monster. Beeline to Iron Working, collect a Worker tech to two -> domination.

 

[huerfanista]

Earth34 is here.

The attachment in that post contains a 18civ Earth map from RFC with Europe being upscaled, Native America replacing the USA, Byzantium replacing Greece and Khmer replacing the Romans, since we've already talked about Rome and Greece. Agg AI, No Tech Brokering and Choose Religions are on by default.

I've been waiting for an E34 that was compatible with 3.19! As a total E34 junkie, you should definitely give it a shot, Mad.

 

[DMOC]

The thing is, Rome only needs two cities; Rome, and one to claim the Copper/Iron to the north to become a production monster. Beeline to Iron Working, collect a Worker tech to two -> domination.

I currently am in the middle of a 300 AD deity game as Julius Caesar. I'm in a ridiculously strong position (as should be expected), and I only settled 1 city early, and that was on top of the copper. I just abandoned Rome and let Isabella settle her second city there (I moved her to the coast btw). The key with Rome is to get axes ASAP while using the gold from city capturing to fund research to Iron Working. Then, replace Axes with Praetorians. 300 AD and I am generating about 1000 beakers. I think settling on the copper and skipping Rome is the way to go.

 

[Shafi]

@ MAD -

Based on what you are saying (and it makes sense),
I would agree that,
1) In a multi player game - advantage greece.
2) In the hands of the AI - greece would do better

3) But in single player game, in the hands of a human, your arguments dont seem to hold, would the AI build that many Phalanxes? also we would be giving the preats the CR promotions and attacking the cities, in the open we would have axemen to defend the stack.

Again i must say i dont have expirience at high levels, but i am thinking most of what we'll be encountering will be archers and maybe some axes, we will lose a few units to axes but the survivors will be prometed to CR II & III and will become lethal.

 

[Med!c]

I dont like either civ as my general style of play is more of a long term thing so I usually just make enough military to be able to hold my self up, so unless you start wars early in the game I dont think either really has benefits. I play as Germans a lot, and I always block the two in and cut their throats off. I've played as Romans before, and although I was really trying to expanding fast in hopes of not getting trapped in, I got trapped in anyways. Just my thought though.

 

[Lone Wolf]

2) In the hands of the AI - greece would do better

AI Greece is rather pathetic, see Neal's series. Rome doesn't do much better, though.

 

[petey]

Rome is the easiest on the Earth-18 map. Go BW -> IW -> Sailing. Build a city in North Africa, put your Praets on a boat and take Madrid (no Writing to get OB with France at this point, so you can't walk). By this point, Paris has likely built at least one of Stonehenge or GW, so go nab that while bringing your galley up to the English channel. Even at Deity, you can do this before England gets to IW and you can take that while they're still defending with warriors and chariots. Build a second city on the NW corner of Africa and then go Germany -> Greece -> Russia.

At that point, you've won, so do what you want. I like taking Africa, then the ME, then India and China until Domination.

 

[DMOC]

petey - If you've taken over all of Europe as well as much of Russia, Mansa should vassal to you voluntarily. In my game, Hatshepsut also voluntarily vassalized, so no Africa necessary.