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earth 18civ tutorial

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by JoeHollywood, Jul 1, 2006.

  1. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    okay going to examine two concepts today in civ...and in doing so hash out my greece and japan strats. while doing so I will be discussing two concepts in civ...the first being "relative power" of units as discussing greece, and "using the organized trait" as japan.

    I'm going to start with Japan since it's the less "complex" of the two.

    I see two strats done with Japan. Both are viable.

    The first is early penetration into Asia, aggressive battle with China fighting for position on the mainland and expansion up to Persia relatively early.

    The second is peaceful colonozation of the archipilego down to australia and beyond.

    The success I've had with Japan is DOING BOTH.

    Many people have slammed the organized trait as being sub-par to financial because in the long run you produce much more commerce with financial.

    Here's a secret...Organized is not about any financial ability at all, it's about PRODUCTION!!!

    An Organized Civ can run 5 cities for the upkeep costs of 3 cities in a non-organized civ.

    Lets look at our goals and assets/liabilities with Japan.

    The greatest "enemy" the Japanese have to deal with is the largest, the biggest, the most daunting thing on the entire earth map...the pacific ocean. Circumnavigating first helps no civ more than the state of Japan.

    Japans second biggest enemy is the turn timer...the only reason I don't like playing Japan is because most of my games are "blazing speed"...lately I've done a few "fast" games, and in that situation you can truly milk the power that is Japan.

    Japans UU is a little on the weak side, but it is an upgrade of a "core" unit in the game.

    Japan is actually easier to defend than England navaly, and asia is easier to land on that Europe is.

    Japan does not have to deal with the Praetorian.

    Japan will almost alway get early religeon...from india most likely.

    Now onto the game!!!

    Worker or settler first are both viable options...rather than deal with technique I'm going to deal with a more freeform type of strategy.

    Japan will have 3 cities on "Japan Proper"

    First will obviously be the capitol, second will be to the north of Kyoto, the third will be to the south. The first two will work towards the mainland, the third will work down the archipelego.

    With enough time each turn micromanagement will make island development as well as the war with china doable.

    Make mongolia your friend ( if it survives )

    The war with China will be vicious if China is a competant player...I want to see OCC ( one of the best Japan players on the map ) and Antideluvian ( one of the best China players on the map ) square off.

    Control the WATER...the invasion of China must be both by land AND by sea.

    As Japan you want to outexpand and outproduce your neighbors. Whereas with england you adopt an "outtech" them all strat, Japan needs to focus on the production side ( don't worry, they stay high in tech all game as well ).

    the key is having 5 cities outproducing their 3. If you're running at 100% you're not taking advantage of organized.

    Drama is a very good tech for Japan...don't forget your culture slider. Remember galleys can travel on the ocean if within cultural limits ( for those of you thinking about dropping a great artist to make the early drop on america, you get a bonus point )

    Japan will have the largest geographical empire ( including water tiles ) of anyone in the game, break it down into chunks, I like to use cntrl-S to put sticky notes on the map to remind me what my plan is, if you try to remember it all, you will forget.

    From bulk axemen to bulk aircraft, never forget that the power of Japan is it's production ability.

    Check your power graph regularily, you should almost always be at the top ( somewhere around persia and rome )...don't stop building military, just because you have a massive amount doesn't matter, asia is a big area to defend.

    State property is the uber civic for Japan

    Anything I left out, please ask

    Joe

    Greece will come later
     
  2. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    Well since you said im one of the best Japan players (thx) i'll put my 2 cents in.

    I agree with Joe that mongols are the best ally, specially of they're human player. I played an earth last night (12 hour game) and i was Japan. Monogls killed china, with my assiatance and we decided to split up Asia.

    If you are willing to ally with mongols make sure you settle in the production part of asia, if you dont and you keep to the alliance, you'll be behind in production. This is what I did and I was 4th in production the entire agme untill i got factories popping.

    I suggest settling 3 cities south of Bejing, each of these cities will get more then 14 population each and will be able to hold about 3-4 scientists with caste system. Most of your other cities should be able to do this to.

    If you manage to conquer china and mongols, you'll have asia to all to yourself. This is golden for a few reasons.

    1. Russia is extremely far away and will be worried about europe, take advantage of this and colonize the land behind the ural mountians. this provides an early warning system if someone attacks.

    2. India will me more concerned about who ever rules the middle east, if they rule the land, then they will look towards europe. I do anyway.

    3.All you have to do for defence is settle the jungle near india, it provides a nice choke point and you get some high end production cities. You cities in russian land should be built in a line so that if russia attacks they have to travel very long distances to get more then one city. This makes acts like the russian strategy, to much land to conquer for only a few cities.

    K now for the later stages of the game. (industrial era and later) This is where japan (or anyone who rules asia alone) truly shines i'd say.

    First thing you have to do is get factories and coal plants. With your vast amount of high population cities your production should about triple. This will make you able to out produce any one.

    Second thing get railroad asap. Asia is a big land, and you need mass transportation to supply your russian front and indian front with troops at a constant pace.

    3. If you're feeling confident about your military and transportation speed, i would conquer india. If you take all of india, you will have another choke point to defend your main cities (japan isle and china land). Never stop filling up india with troops after that though, cause everyone will come after you if they're smart.

    The next best thing to do is get flight (and radio for bombers). This works even better then railroad. Now you never stop producing air units cause the air force wins the game. Also while doing this, build a huge navy, nothing hurts more then a sneak attack from the states.

    The one flaw asia has near the end of the game, is lack of resources, oil, urainium and aluminum. Only urainium is north of mongol captial, only oil till you get plastics is in bejing and only aluminum is in india.

    In conclusion the best way to defend japan is by having satilite cities, mass transportation, having a second army behind each of satilite cities and defending your choke points.

    By the way Joe, I finished that game only declaring war once. I actually can be peaceful at times :)
     
  3. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    The last game I won as Mali, I only declared war once, and it was in 1900AD...well, that is if you count declaring war with 3 civs on the same turn declaring once...grin

    Joe

    I promise I'll do greece today...I actually did type up a huge thing on greece till my browser crashed...a really nice article on "relative strength of units" too
     
  4. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    and I'm sure that sneak attack where I razed Kyoto late game had nothing to do with that comment...grin
     
  5. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    well me only declaring war once (it was a nuke war) is simply amazing being the backstabber i am

    I still remember that attack, it didnt phase me to much though, still Kyoto was size 23 city
     
  6. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    blech, I finally found someone who sells Civ4 for mac...and of course my laptop doesn't have enough ram to run it...withdrawl sucks!
     
  7. Locki

    Locki Chieftain

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    Two questions:

    First is for "I play 4 Fun", your strat for Japan includes your primary objective as taking over china, what about all the islands to the south? do you colonize those at the same time? and where do you place your first cities? (I have a lot of problems with city placement as Japan. I always end up having my city on the northern tip being practically useless production wise. captial being a super city and southern one being a decent one) I'm assuming your also taking Korea first, but any other quick expansion cities to mainland?

    Second question is to Joe, I'm wondering about more detail about where you place your first 5 cities, especially on the japanese island. ( exact spot for the island is what i really need) Also how crucial is getting to north america first? (being first to contact NA may be good in terms of tech trade, as the ones there will be gagging for it by then, but anything else?) and do you recommend getting the great lighthouse and the colossus? I know you dont tend to build wonders because you'd rather take them but I'm guessing they're are few people who would be out to build them in a MP game so you wouldnt need to "rush them", and considering your strat involves always being very short on gold maybe it would help significantly.

    thats more than 2 questions, but oh well hehe

    Locki
     
  8. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    as for the wonders...it would be great to have lighthouse/collosus...this is one of the times I'd definately go for one wonder...

    of the two I'd pick collosus.

    the reason I would go for these is not so much the benefit you get from building them, but the fact that it will be either you or england who gets them, so you HAVE to build them if you ever want them, however don't try for both, you most likely won't get them. since you're rushing naval techs and running towards your UU and crossbows anyway, the early collossus pop is a good plan...

    as for exact city placement, if you'd be so kind as to post a screenshot of the island, I haven't committed it to memory as well as the european civs.
     
  9. Icewise

    Icewise Chieftain

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    Canadian your talking about that game i lfet yesterday aren't you and you backstabbed Rome didn't you.
     
  10. nealhunt

    nealhunt Warlord

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    I'm glad this thread started, too. I've always like the real earth maps.
    ===

    India: I've tried several strats and generally come to the conclusion that you need to skip a religion. It's simply not worth it. There are too many other things you need ASAP to spend the time researching a religious tech and the payoff for a religion can be quite late in coming.

    Same thing for all the early wonders - don't bother. You don't have the resources to speed production and generally have poor production anyway. Slavery works great for whipping buildings and units out of all your food resources but that does nothing for wonders. I've found it a complete waste of time.

    So, basic start...

    Settle in place.

    Tech: BW>Ag>Wheel>IW>Pottery=>beeline to calendar and alphabet

    There's precious little to chop but you need BW for slavery. You also need it for IW because iron will be your only metal. Agriculture follows next for food for slave rush and settler/worker production. Iron for military units and pottery for granary to regenerate your cruelly enslaved population. Calendar because you are overrun with calendar resources and if you don't grab them you will fall behind in tech. Once you have that, alphabet for tech trading. At some point in the calendar/alphabet run I usually stop and grab Animal Husbandry to hook up the cattle.

    Build: Barracks to Pop2, worker, let the barracks finish, settler, build military

    Possibly throw in a couple token warriors along the way, depending on how the barbs are acting but usually I'll pop rush defenders if needed. In a multiplayer you might need a defender early on but I'd still probably count on pop-rushing if needed.

    General: Send your warrior west to meet up with as many civs as possible. You'll want to tech trade and it helps research to have contacts with civs that already know a particular tech.

    Send your worker to hook up the rice and the plains wheat tile. About the time you finish improving rice and wheat you can pre-build a road to where your next city will build at the mouth of the Ganges (assuming my geography is correct - I may have the wrong river name - anyway, the hill on the coast to the SE). Concidentally, that road goes by the hill where iron will appear, so you can even avoid guilt about using your omniscence if you are prone to such things. As soon as the Iron pops hook it up.

    That should also be about the same time as the barracks finishes. Delhi should be Pop 3 or 4 by that time and has 2 good food sources to work, so the settlers should go quickly even without chopping. Workers hook up resources as needed and pre-road to your settlement sites if you run out.

    Establish your second city. Build: granary, military units (pop rush).

    By this time you should be massing an invasion force of axes and swords to go after Cyrus. Since you're going after archers fortified in a capital with culture defense, the swords are basically disposable. If they survive, great, but don't count on it. You'll need 6 units to take Persepolis and you'll need more to quickly follow on for the run to Pasgarde.

    The AI always settle in place, which is (imho) not optimal for Cyrus but wtill worth keeping, especially since it has decent production. It usually settles the second city on the plains hill next to the lake to the west. That's your follow on target. It because a MONSTER production site once you get all the food and mines hooked up, and has spare tiles for decent cottaging. If it's not settled, settle it. If someone else settled it, make peace with Cyrus and take it from the second person.

    Obviously, use your worker to hook up everything tech allows, focusing on food for pop rushing and pre-road towards Cyrus and/or future settlement sites. Build a few cottages along the way but your early economy will really kick in once you get calendar.

    Future settlement sites: To the west between Delhi and Persepolis I drop a city next on the "corner" next to the river. It's low on resources so it's a good site for early cottaging.

    To the east I put one on the gulf nextled between the bananas and spices. It's a monster site, but useless until you have workers to clear the jungle and get those plantations running.

    To the south on the eastern coast just north of the mountains. that will take you to snag the cattle at the tip of the continent and gets good food resources.

    That should put you half to a third of the way from the top of the score and you should just climb from there.

    General stuff: Take the city in the Tigris/euphrates area. Someone always settles it and there is no better cottaging to be had.

    Religions spread quickly once borders open. Adopt the dominant religion and you will be able to war with relatively little home protection for a while.

    Similary, people like you so trade, trade, trade on techs. Keep the monopoly on alphabet as long as you can and you can usually exhaust the possibilities with the low-score civs. Use it for a "lightning round" of trades with the upper score civs you will be way ahead of most.

    Remember to expand East, too. China will quickly block you in. Keep some troops garrisoned on that end just in case. Unfortunately, they are really too far away to pick as an early war target but their territory is strong and you may find yourself in a position where they are competing with you for score.

    I find Egypt frequently winds up with a religion or two and not much military action. By the time you've made it that far (you've warmongered all the way into the middle east) it's not hard to shore up your stacks of doom and take a lightly defended religious city from Egypt. With the early religion spread holy cities represent huge incomes.
     
  11. nealhunt

    nealhunt Warlord

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    Persia:

    I haven't played Persia often and have screwed it up more often than not, but I do agree that moving the initial settler north onto the hill is worth it. It puts horses in your starting fat cross and just as importantly it takes out the sea squares from a landlocked city which can never build anything to improve them. It will cap out on size, but it can grow large enough to be a strong production city in the early game.

    I think the AI run to the west to the site I described above is a good plan and after that you will need to head to the Tigris/Euphrates area because you'll have lousy area for cottaging everyplace else.

    I haven't tried it, but I think you _might_ be able to make an Immortal rush for Thebes if you time it right.

    I don't think it would be worth it to go after India as the techs Persia needs early on don't necessarily lend themselves to using that land. Better to save them until a bit later. Besides, India is always lightly defended so even if they have a bit of a tech lead you should be able to take it.
     
  12. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    Ok Locki to your question about placing the cities on the islands.

    As Joe mentioned before, the timer turner is evil. If i get enought time i will settle one city where there is copper, 2 bananas, sugar, one free space, and silk. I usually only make one other of those island cities as im busy with the mainland. The second city is near the oil in the water.

    the city near the pigs and iron should be used as staging point to destroy china's horses


    For the other cities, my second is on the silk in Korea, later o.ne more city NW of it near the pigs, iron, wheat and dear.

    I put one city on the gold and one on the silver but i let kyoto keep the copper for mast production, maybe letting the silver has it is better but im not sure in the begining
     
  13. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    Yes icewise that was the game but Rome and i were never allied and it was a nuclear war.

    nealhunt i disagree with you tech path. In order for india to survive they need to rush persia, this requires hunting and archery. Also if you dont get Animal Husbandry delhi wont have any production which it needs

    Also about persia attacking egypt. Persia should attack egypt when they have metals, spears vs war chariots alot easier to win then risking a immortal rush. Not to mention arabia is in between them
     
  14. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    hey guys...lot of work the past few days...sorry i've not been around so much...

    couple questions ofor all of you, I haven't seen that a "civ24" map is going to be included, so I might be creating that myself, but assuming that the new six are going to be in their historical locations, how do you think it will balance/unbalance the current dynamics of play?

    how do you think it will adjust strats?

    will any of the new civs be a "power civ"?

    etc....grin

    Joe
     
  15. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    If you do make new earth map by including the new civs i dont think that you would be able to include the celts in england.

    I think the vikings would be a new power civ because they get copper in scandinavia. Ottomans alsoe could be a new power in the middle east depending on their starting location.

    Carthage i think would be in the spot of north africa, south of spain. The could easily do a drop in spain i think.

    Korea i think wouldn't change the game play to much other then the fact japan will have to kill them early.

    The zulu would have a huge impact i think. The land in south africa has copper and iron which would give them their uu. Their uu would be able to kill egypt easy.

    Also if you adopt the new traits for the leaders (like Julius being imperialistic, and china being protective) it would change the strategies greatly.

    1. Japan is no longer organized. This would hamper their expansion down to austrailia.

    2. Persia is no longer creative, this almost forces them to move their city onto the hill to get horses fast enough.

    3. Russia isnt financial, the forces them to expand slower i think.

    4.Rome, Persia and Russia will be favoured in war even more cause of being Charismatic and Imperialistic. (Mongols to if they survive)

    One last thing is the US(unique structure or UB unique buildings) will change the strat's very quickly
     
  16. Betafor

    Betafor Dictator

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    Carthage will be very weak, unless the map is edited. There is really only room for one mediocre city there, worse then mali

    Vikings-Yes, and no. They get copper, but not as much recources/supercity area as england, and the nearest neighbor is across water or a LONG land route, so an early war for the supercities in europe is off.

    I agree, zulu is going to be a power

    Korea is going to be kind of just... there... It starts out with some good/fair city sites, but no recources to take advantage of its multiple neighbors(coughwarcough)

    in conclusion, in order for the new civs to make sence, i think there are 2 options

    a. change the map
    b. Don't include some civs

    b is definitly a bad idea, and for a. we would need someone not only good at modding but also at civ4 itself to make it balanced, but not fair, as the original map makers did
     
  17. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    Betafor you didn't mention the Ottoman empire. I think they would be really good because they would be in the constantinople area which is a good spot.

    The viking cities in the north should provide lots of production. With this production, i think they should be able to invade england.

    Joe, about 2 nights ago a pro player used an unorthodox strat as arabia.

    What he does is a warrior rush against persia and egypt (depending iff they are human or not). Mecca only works the forested hill till +3 production and Mecca has +2 production because it's on a hill.

    He is able to mass produce warriors and eventually archers. This strat has proven to work very well but i think it hurts arabia in the begining run with lack of growth. I think persia can hold but i dont think egypt can unless they get the warrior on the hill first. What are your thoughts on this strat?
     
  18. Betafor

    Betafor Dictator

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    OCC, you talking about darquan?

    it works, but it works best if they are humans and neglect immidiate warriors(worker first)
     
  19. JoeHollywood

    JoeHollywood Warlord

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    darquan is a very good player...pro?...well he and I will have to test that in game...grin

    I have already gotten a lot of questions on this strat, even a phone call! Whereas I have not seen it, I think I can hold and do quite well with persia...

    we'll have to see on that one, as for egypt, yes I think egypt can hold, but it will take some work and slavery to do so, I'm going to need access to the map and a good player or two to play test with, but already have the volunteers for that...

    as for my eta...best buy is now saying by the 24th...grumble.

    I appreciate the phone calls, posts etc, and trust me, we're going to have an 18 civ gala when I do get it back...

    I just don't know what civ to pick, I think all you guys have read to much about my "strats" for any of them to work...grin

    I may have to bring something new to the table...or I'll try Rome, and let you guys beat up on me using my best...

    Joe
     
  20. I play 4 fun

    I play 4 fun Warlord

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    Well any time you want to test strats Joe im more then willing to help.
     

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