Earth challenge (huge size)

Welcome to CFC, Rom_Addy. :) Impressive result you got there! I think this is very interesting too. Makes you wonder whether it's better to squeeze out a victory on the highest difficulty level you can handle, or to totally dominate a game on an easy difficulty?
 
Finished my Immortal game. A culture victory with Egypt.

Ramses
Immortal
Score 57305
Date: 1752

Spoiler :
ramses_immortal.png
[/IMG]
egypt_immortal.png

 
All the talking about the different victory types giving unbalanced scores got me thinking wouldn't it be possible to do a weighted average of victory types as well ? Like Kadazzle got a 406799 domination win and a 142225 cultural win, so cultural victory should be worth more?
 
So you replayed Egypt? Interesting...

To separate scores by victory type would be inadvisable for two reasons: first of all we already do not have enough scores to make a fair weighted average score list. Secondly, people do not usually go for one victory type from the start. (At least I don't.) The distinction between the victory types is already made through people their distinguishable playing styles.

What I could do is toss all scores together and do a statistical analysis (with SPSS, should anyone be familiar with that), to look for correlations between players, civilizations, victory types and all that, including margin of error, significance...the works.
 
yea repleyed with egypt now on immortal instead of settler, so quiet a different game. First time more against the time than against the AI. This time on immortal the AI did manage to fight back a bit.

Hmm, not sure why it would take more data to compare victory types than nations for example, and i dont agree, I usely have decided what victory I go for when i see the starting position. Especially with a know map like these...
 
Seemed like a fun thing to do conquest on a huge map... turns out it was a huge drag to finish up with an 85 city empire, but well...

Short recap:

Difficulty: Immortal, Win: Conquest, Score: 428130, Date: 1315AD
(Both the date and score would've been better had I not been fed up the final 30-50 turns of the game that took forever and then some :))

Impi rush (Mali, Egypt, India, Khmer), HA rush (China), Knight rush (Mongolia, Russia, Rome), Cuirassair rush (Viking + other continent), Cavalery (Other continent).

Built every early wonder except Stonehenge and ToA (I think) :)

Fun challenge, although it takes forever on this huge map :)
 
It was a long, long game... and it didn't help that I had to work all sorts of overtime this past week. But finally,

Domination Victory
Egypt
1738 AD
Warlord Difficulty
110,919

I thought the lower difficulty would really help me speed up a victory, and while it was reasonably effective on # of turns the game time was still horrendous. I think my normal mode of warring was too conservative for the difficulty during most of the game. I usually took the time to bring cats/cannons up to cities before attacking. By mid-game, I was doing this with 4-6 stacks at a time, so the progress wasn't bad, but most combats were at 95%+ odds.

Ah well, I shouldn't complain. This is the highest score I've ever gotten!
 

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China, Monarch, Domination, 1712 AD
192424 final, 4782 in game

Only interesting thing in this game was the 1000 or so years of striking my units did in the early BC years. Their unions are very well organized apparently! :lol:

civ4screenshot0009.jpg
 
Since I have [snip]-all to do all day at work, I thought I'd spend some time explaining the mechanics of this thing, in an attempt to make this understandable for non-mathematicians/statisticians as well. But don't worry, if you don't understand it, either my didactic skills are insufficient or the matter is just too complex.

Anyway, so here goes...

The scores entered here are actual or observed scores.
But based on players and civilizations their previous scores made, one can make an estimation of what score a player would get playing another civilization. If player John's score is 225 and Egypt's score is 144, one could estimate that if John would play as Egypt, his score would be √(225*144)=180. (This is the geometric mean, rather than the arithmetic mean.)
180 would be John's expected score.

Now, what I do is calculating the scores of all players and civilizations thus, that all expected scores are as close to the observed scores as possible. As long as there are no conflicting scores (my coined term, which I will explain later), the expected scores can actually be equal to the observed scores.

Please take a look at the first picture. This shows all the submitted results. Each line is one game: that player played with that civilization. As you can see players who played as the Zulus never played with any other civilization. Therefore that group is incomparable with the rest. But we've reached a funny situation, where almost all results are linked in some manner, but there are very few conflicting results. It's all loose ends, except for zbgayumn & gram123 / Egypt & Inca. That's the only place where you can go round and the only place where there are conflicting results. The scores for those two players/civilization cannot be fit as such that the expected scores are equal to the observed scores.

Ironically, conflicting results is what we want! The more conflicting results, the more statistical cases we have, the lower the margin of error.

You can see how this works out in the table / picture two. Note that these scores are squared. (e.g. √40000=200) To the right and bottom of the right table you see scores below or above 1, corresponding to the player/civ at the left/top. In the bottom right corner you see 312, which is the global average. The expected score of evil_spock playing as the Inca is 2.1*0.6*312=383. In red you can see the conflicting scores. Zbgayumn actually played better with Egypt and worse with Inca than expected.
Gram123 actually played worse with Egypt and better with Inca than expected.

In short, the present scores make little sense...yet! The longer this thing continues, the more accurate and fair the score list will be. What we need is more red number/black lines. And of course all scores linked together. At the moment there are only three civilizations not linked to the main blob yet.

For fun I made another chart (last picture) which has no functional meaning, but just illustrates the dynamics of new scores coming in. Each line is a group of results that is not linked to other results. Eventually they will all merge into one. The thickness of the line represents the total number of results within that group, the height the average score of that group.
 

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Finished with my Incan space race: monarch/epic 1718 AD. Was completely peaceful after warrior rushing Pacal and Monty, aside from killing a few barbarian galleys. For a long while I had more production than the rest of the world combined, so I probably could have won by domination or conquest, but really, at that point the game's already won anyhow and it would have been way too tedious.

Spoiler :
civ4screenshot0027t.jpg


and the demographics screen. Though it's a bit inflated by the golden age, mostly it's a consequence of me having undergone an industrial revolution 500 years ago, while everyone else is still in the Renaissance.

civ4screenshot0026.jpg



Currently playing a game as Mongolia. Just took Sury's capital and, with it, the great wall, so things are looking good so far. Might end up going to space again, which should provide an interesting comparison to the Inca game.
 
I think I accidentally selected "egypt" but it should have been China on the submission page... oops!
 
Mongolia - Emperor - Domination - 1665 - 239286
Could not have done this without the GW

Spoiler :

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As discussed earlier in this thread (and other places i suspect) it seems that the scores in civ4 is biased towards domination victories. Now that we do have a lot of data on the same map, i thought i would be interesting to try and control for victorytype and see how the scores compares then. Im not quite as sophisticated as Matrix so that i use SPSS for this kind of stuff (eventhough i actually did use SPSS for school purpose not so long ago)

Basicly this is a excel sheet, where i have found the average scores of the different victory types and civilizations this compiles into a index where 1.0 would be the average. In this way both civilizations and victorytypes gets a so called difficult factor which then is multiplied to the scores of the different players.


Code:
    [U]Player            [/U]  [U]Civ  [/U]  [U]Points[/U]  [U]Date   [/U]  [U]Result     [/U]  [U]Difficulty[/U] [U]Score[/U]
1	Kadazzle	Egypt	142225	1300	Cultural	Deity	599782
2	Gustave5436	Inca	94879	1718	Space Race	Monarch	547944
3	WithTea		Native	64025	1855	Cultural	Monarch	454939
4	Archon_Wing	Aztec	37840	1903	Space Race	Monarch	399155
5	gram123		Inca	52151	1778	Cultural	Emperor	258352
6	gram123		Egypt	57305	1752	Cultural	Immortal 241663
7	Rom_Addy	Rome	564671	730	Domination win	Noble	234913
8	Archon_Wing 	Native	32347	1883	Cultural	Noble	229846
9	QuantumPion 	Egypt	45361	1900	Space Race	Monarch	223006
10	illram		Egypt	192424	1712	Domination win	Monarch	188220
11	balatian	Khmer	137299	1810	Domination win	Emperor	187770
12	zbgayumn	Inca	37220	1768	Cultural	Monarch	184385
13	Bjeurn		Khmer	25768	1942	Space Race	Prince	177120
14	evil_spock	Inca	146644	1847	Domination win	Monarch	168500
15	gram123		Egypt	34704	1265	Cultural	Settler	146351
16	Brenador	Inca	29537	1768	Cultural	Noble	146324
17	m00n		Maya	119019	1878	Domination win	Emperor	134874
18	west45		Mali	264564	1748	Domination win	Emperor	124379
19	Elbow_Jobertski	Maya	21143	1932	Space Race	Warlord	120423
20	Archon_Wing	China	60638	1818	Diplomatic	Monarch	119488
21	DesertPfox      China	171069	1814	Domination win	Emperor	117267
22	illram		Rome	55083	1851	Space Race	Monarch	115175
23	dilettante	Russia	33855	1923	Space Race	Warlord	114132
24	monkybone	Mongolia213852	1710	Domination win	Emperor	111795
25	Elbow_Jobertski	Inca	22367	1808	Cultural	Warlord	110804
26	DigitalCraft	Egypt	22499	1867	Space Race	Warlord	110611
27	zbgayumn	Egypt	110919	1738	Domination win	Warlord	108495
28	grenobles	Vikings	231560	1774	Domination win	Emperor	104428
29	gram123		Mali	73289	1857	Diplomatic	Noble	99044
30	AbsoluteZero	Zululand292290	1605	Domination win	Immortal 83368
31	monkybone	Vikings	180154	1816	Domination win	Emperor	81245
32	Kadazzle	India	406799	1655	Domination win	Deity	79417
33	gram123		Rome 	174347	1555	Domination win	Noble	72531
34	CaF		Zululand237385	1605	Domination win	Emperor	67708
35	dilettante	Khmer	11144	1936	Cultural	Noble	65707
36	alhimik		Rome	152288	1824	Domination win	Monarch	63354
37	Bugg123		Zululand428130	1315	Conquest	Immortal 54903
38	Morholt		Vikings	116584	1864	Domination win	Monarch	52577
39	stevoh		Mongolia 89981	1887	Domination	Monarch	47039
40	Makahlua	Russia	66967	1890	Domination	Noble	44917
41	Ororo           Zululand 155940	1814	Domination win	Emperor	44478
42	topsecret	Egypt	8260	1963	Space Race	Chieftain 40608
43	dcmort93	Rome	8102	1968	Cultural	Chieftain 14532
44	Mellus		Russia	17580	1982	Domination	Noble	11792

Here are the scores of the different victory types. It seems there are too little data to create a fair score fore Conquest and Diplo. Both at which only a few scores were made and all are fairly high scores, therefore they are punished as the system think as these victories as easy to get victory. Witch might or might not be true.

Spoiler :

Code:
[u]Win Type      [/u] [u]Average [/u] [u] Index (1) [/u] 
Domination 	192492	0,642317439
Conquest	428130	0,288793336
Cultural	44647	2,769247058
Space		38298	3,228339304
Diplomatic	66963	1,846395289


And here are the scores of the different civs. I think this might be the same formula Matrix is using when he weight the civs scores. So here are the numbers on a index to 1

Spoiler :

Code:
[u]Dif[/u] 	[u]Average[/u] 	[u]To Index[/u] 
Deity	274512	0,450403228
Immortal360210	0,343247247
Emperor	176299	0,701313567
Prince	25768	4,798241653
Monarch	88762	1,392949283
Noble	121235	1,019844401
Warlord	42156	2,932899971
Chieftain 8181	15,11320021
Settler	34704	3,562733141
Note that Prince is getting way to high scores because only one player played this difficulty and compared to other players he scores lower than the average. Noble is getting relatively low scores because Rome_addy proved that it is possible to make a very high score on this level. And finally settler is getting a fairly low scores compared to the other low difficulties - thats because the only game played on this level made a better score the other low difficulty games.


I also tried to test for difficulty but the result didn't make sense. It appears that because people mostly play on a difficulty that matches there skills, the result will not be comparable. That is: Bacause all the good players play on higher dif, and getting higher scores, therefore the system think as higher dif as easier to get high scores. The result being the lower the dif. Eventhough i actually think this might be right, because it seems easier to get higher scores on higher dif. IE. I played two games with Egypt, both cultural victories and eventhough i finished 700years earlier on settler i still get higher scores in my immoral game. So this system could actually be used to level out the bias the game has for higher dif, but that would require that both good and bad players played on both high and low difficulties.
Spoiler :

Code:
[u]Dif[/u] 	[u]Average[/u] 	[u]To Index[/u] 
Deity	274512	0,450403228
Immortal360210	0,343247247
Emperor	176299	0,701313567
Prince	25768	4,798241653
Monarch	88762	1,392949283
Noble	121235	1,019844401
Warlord	42156	2,932899971
Chieftain 8181	15,11320021
Settler	34704	3,562733141
 
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