East Asia mod?

[Yoda Power]

Ok I'm in Munich and got a chance to post from a laptop.

The Mongolian scenario that came with Civ4Warlords states it to be Beshbalik, with Kuchi and Khamil as additional cities.

I'll be damned before I trust Firaxis on historical accuracy!

I think Lacquer or Sandalwood would be better luxuries than Opium. Lacquered crafts and furniture and Sandalwood were highly prized luxury goods among the elites or those who could afford them.

I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not dure I understand what Sandalwood exactly is. Is it a special type of wood used for sandals?

I've noticed that you used the old Romanization for the Korean cities - would you like the updated ones? Also, "Seoul" is a modern name; the capital of the Joseon period was Hanyang. The capital of Korea varies depending on your focus - Geumseong (Gyeongju) in the Shilla period, Gaeseong in the Goryeo period, and Hanyang in the Joseon period.

Yes I'd much rather use the old names! Please help me out here.

The link in my sig has a list of leaders, capitals, and UU suggestions for East Asian civs from the Shang Dynasty up to the 19th century. Blue Monkey would know more about the South and Southeast Asian civs.

Yes I already checked it out. When I come home I will post a list of what I do have.

As for the Uighur capital, Wikipedia has the first capital as Ordu Baliq. I'll look more into the matter on Uighur history; my knowledge of Central Asia is lacking here.

That wiould be a great help, since I'll need more than one city for the city list.

Shinto shrine by the way is "Jinja."

Thanks, I'll correct that.

I'd say incense for the luxury item; since sandalwood is the primary one from India that'd make sense.

But wasn't incense important from Arabia?

Nothing to comment on the cities list except that maybe you would be interested in using one of the less Anglicized version of Calcutta: Kalikata or Kolkata.

I'll fix that.

Leaders: no one knows any names for anything Harappan so do what you will. The obvious choice for Maurya is Asoka. For the other two I'd have to do some research.

Don't worry, I think I got the leaders for the Indian civs figured out already (since all those civs are included in my personsal mod too). Your free to make corrections when I post the list though.

As I will for other leaders & suggested traits.

That would be great!

There's a handful of Indian units that I did specifically for Anno Domini, but haven't uploaded separately. Please feel free to raid AD for anything you need from it, even though it's still technically a beta.

I will, afterall you did use a couple of things from MEM too.

 

[Blue Monkey]

But wasn't incense important from Arabia?

The "Skinny" on incense (picture of incenses in traditional form):

• Benzoin - plant resin from SE Asia & Indonesia
• Camphor - plant resin from Indonesia
• Cedar - chipped, powdered wood or paste from Himalayan regions.
• Copal - plant resin from Mesoamerica
• Dragon's Blood - Traditionally a mixture of ingredients in resin form of which Chinese artisans knew half the secret formula & SE Asian artisans knew the other half, ensuring cooperation & trade; this according to my friend who wholesales incense & thanks to whom I've seen a whole brick (about 2 kilos weight) with gold seals.
• Frankincense - plant resin from Oman, Yemen & Somalia
• Guggul - plant resin from India
• Labdanum - plant resin from Mediterranean region
• Myrrh - plant resin from Ethiopia & Somalia
• Patchouli - plant oil from Indonesia
• Sandalwood - chipped, powdered wood or paste from Nepal, India & Sri Lanka
• Spikenard - plant oil from the Himalayan region
• And, last but not least, Ambergris - whale bile, found anywhere whales

So I'd say South, SE Asia & China are easily as important sources of incense as the Arabian Peninsula.

 

[Yoda Power]

Incense it is then.

 

[RedAlert]

Unless you are set on the Uighurs, may I suggest the Kushan/Yuezhi as your Tarim Basin civ?
I like your map, btw. How long did that take you? You make really good maps.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Yes I'd much rather use the old names! Please help me out here.

Here's a list of historical Korean cities using the new Romanization system. Note that these city names are from the Samguk Period up to the Joseon Period. I've marked capital cities with a emoticon and the names in the brackets are the time when they were capital.

Hanyang [Baekje, Joseon, present-day South Korea]
Geumseong [Shilla, Unified Shilla]
Guknaeseong [Goguryeo]
Pyeongyang
Buyeo
Ungjin
Sabi
Yangsan
Gwansangseong
Danghangseong
Goryeong
Gimhae
Imjonseong
Hwangsan
Daeyaseong
Daejeon
Wansan
Geumgwanggyeong
Gangju
Bukgyeong
Muju
Jungwongyeong
Sangju
Chuncheon
Gangneung
Gochang
Seowongeyong
Jukju
Unju
Byokkol
Cholwon
Paegangjin
Hyeolgujin
Bukjin
Gaegyeong [Goryeo]
Anbuk
Anbyeon
Anseo
Annam
Andong
Suwon
Hangju
Euiju
Gyeongseong
Byeokjegwan
Chungju
Cheongju
Okcheon
Daegu
Hamheung
Haeju
Wonju
Busan
Ulsan
Dongnae
Namwon
Hwangju
Boryeong
Suncheon
Goseong
Cheonan
Asan
Incheon

You might be wondering where "Seoul" is and where some other notable Korean cities are - "Hanyang" is the historical name for Seoul and I've used the older names for various cities here, such as "Gangju" for present-day "Jinju."

 

[The Last Conformist]

The Tarim desert has always been rather sparsely populated, but on your map it's mostly flood plains! I'd suggest removing the rivers and putting in a few oases instead.

The Uighurs sounds like a good addition.

 

[Yoda Power]

Unless you are set on the Uighurs, may I suggest the Kushan/Yuezhi as your Tarim Basin civ?
I like your map, btw. How long did that take you? You make really good maps.

Weren't they more west in todsyd Kazakhstan? Thanks for liking the map, it took me three days to make.

Here's a list of historical Korean cities using the new Romanization system. Note that these city names are from the Samguk Period up to the Joseon Period. I've marked capital cities with a emoticon and the names in the brackets are the time when they were capital.

Spoiler :

Hanyang [Baekje, Joseon, present-day South Korea]
Geumseong [Shilla, Unified Shilla]
Guknaeseong [Goguryeo]
Pyeongyang
Buyeo
Ungjin
Sabi
Yangsan
Gwansangseong
Danghangseong
Goryeong
Gimhae
Imjonseong
Hwangsan
Daeyaseong
Daejeon
Wansan
Geumgwanggyeong
Gangju
Bukgyeong
Muju
Jungwongyeong
Sangju
Chuncheon
Gangneung
Gochang
Seowongeyong
Jukju
Unju
Byokkol
Cholwon
Paegangjin
Hyeolgujin
Bukjin
Gaegyeong [Goryeo]
Anbuk
Anbyeon
Anseo
Annam
Andong
Suwon
Hangju
Euiju
Gyeongseong
Byeokjegwan
Chungju
Cheongju
Okcheon
Daegu
Hamheung
Haeju
Wonju
Busan
Ulsan
Dongnae
Namwon
Hwangju
Boryeong
Suncheon
Goseong
Cheonan
Asan
Incheon

You might be wondering where "Seoul" is and where some other notable Korean cities are - "Hanyang" is the historical name for Seoul and I've used the older names for various cities here, such as "Gangju" for present-day "Jinju."

Great! Thanks a lot.

The Tarim desert has always been rather sparsely populated, but on your map it's mostly flood plains! I'd suggest removing the rivers and putting in a few oases instead.

The Uighurs sounds like a good addition.

Who says flood plains have to be just as good in the mod as in the real game? The rivers are realisticly placed, so I see no reason to remove them, when I can just mod them worse.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Thanks for liking the map, it took me three days to make.

If that was 3 twenty-hour days (with 4 hours of pizza & WC per diem) then I guess that the RoA map only took a little more labor.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Weren't they more west in todsyd Kazakhstan?

They moved quite a bit. See the map in the Wikipedia entry.

Who says flood plains have to be just as good in the mod as in the real game? The rivers are realisticly placed, so I see no reason to remove them, when I can just mod them worse.

Well, you could do that, but then you nerf flood-plain areas that should be fertile, eg. Sindh. Of course, you could place extra food resources in the later.

 

[Yoda Power]

If that was 3 twenty-hour days (with 4 hours of pizza & WC per diem) then I guess that the RoA map only took a little more labor.

Not to be arrogant, but I never worked on it more than four hours in a row, and only when my g/f allowed it.

They moved quite a bit. See the map in the Wikipedia entry.


Well, you could do that, but then you nerf flood-plain areas that should be fertile, eg. Sindh. Of course, you could place extra food resources in the later.

I see, however I think they would be just as good a civ as the Uighur, so I might aswell keep them there.

The area in Sind that's covered in flood plains isn't very big, and I can always change it too grassland if it becomes a problem.

 

[Yoda Power]

Ok I'm starting to finish the civs. I'll use this post to final list of civs. I'll add in the missing slots as I read a long. I hope people will help me make it, as I can't claim to be an expert on all these civs.

Civilizations, traits, leaders and more

Japan
Leader: Emperor Kammu
UU: Samurai
Traits: Mil & Agri
Religions: Buddhist & Shinto

Korea
Leader: Taejo Wang Geon
UU: Turtleship
Traits: Com & Sci
Religions: Buddhist & Konfucian

Jin
Leader: Emperor Nurhaci
UU: Bannerman
Traits: Exp & Com
Religions: Buddhist & Konfucian

Ming
Leader: Emperor Zhu Di
UU: Rocketeers
Traits: Ind & Sci
Religions: Buddhist & Konfucian

Song
Leader: Emperor Zhao Kuangyin
UU: Paddleship
Traits: Agri & Sci
Religions: Daoist & Konfucian

Qin
Leader: Emperor Shi Huang Di
UU: Qin Infantry
Traits: Ind & Mil
Religions: Daoist & Kunfucian

Nanchao
Leader: Chief Pelegou
UU:
Traits: Agri & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & Daoist

Nam Viet
Leader: Queen Trung Trac
UU: Au-Lac Crossbowman
Traits: Mil & Com
Religions: Buddhist & Konfucian

Mongolia
Leader: Genghis Khan Temujin
UU: Keshik
Traits: Exp & Mil
Religions: Buddhist & Shamanist

Yuezhi
Leader:
UU:
Traits: Com & Exp
Religions:

Tibet
Leader: Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso
UU: Khampa Horseman
Traits: Mil & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & Shamanist

Kara Khitai
Leader: Regent Xiao Tabuyan
UU: Tayangyu Warrior
Traits: Com & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & Shamanist

Timurids
Leader: Timur Lenk
UU:
Traits: Exp & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & Muslim

Kambujadesa
Leader: Devaraja Jayavarman
UU: Pha'kakman
Traits: Agri & Ind
Religions: Buddhist & Hindu

Burma
Leader: King Anawrahta
UU: Kywan Worker
Traits: Agri & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & ?

Sri Vijaya
Leader: Maharaja Samaratuga
UU:
Traits: Com & Sea
Religions: Buddhist & Hindu

Majapahit
Leader: Rajasanegara Hayam Wuruk
UU: Bugis Warrior
Traits: Exp & Sea
Religions: Hindu & Muslim

Indus
Leader: Cheif Vatavelli
UU:
Traits: Agri & Rel
Religions: Muslim & Hindu

Mughals
Leader: Grand Mughal Akbar
UU: A horse or an elephant
Traits: Exp & Ind
Religions: Muslim & Hindu

Maurya
Leader: Raja Asoka
UU: Some elite archer
Traits: Exp & Rel
Religions: Buddhist & Hindu

Vijyarnagara
Leader: Raja Krishna Deva
UU:
Traits: Ind & Exp
Religions: Buddhist & Hindu

 

[Yoda Power]

Buildings updated

Ok here is a new list of buidlings. I still hope people will download it help me fill out the red and yellow spots.

Does anyone have ideas for the missing ones? So far I need names for these buildings:

One that gives production in water, in the later eras.
The two buildings that alloq the city to grow beyond 6 ans 12.
A trade building that gives 50% more tax.
A Sugar specific building, with effects too.
And the same for Incense and Cotton.

I think the Shamanist spec. building will be Burial Mound (Kurgan).

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Some commentary on your list -

Shogun Tokugawa is kind of overused as a Japanese leader though he was one heck of a leader and he managed to unify a the country in totally chaotic times under his rule. If you're interested in a more unusual choice, one option could be Empress Suiko. Another option would be Emperor Kammu, who established Heian (Kyoto) as the permanent capital in the Heian Period; the Heian Period is considered a high point in the development of Japanese civilization. A third option could be Regent Fujiwara no Michinaga; nominally he was never ruler, but he and the Fujiwara clan monopolized imperial power during the Heian Period. The first two eras of Shiro's Emperor Mutsuhito (Meiji) leaderhead could work here; frenchman made an Empress Suiko leaderhead if you don't mind the slightly enlarged chest.

Wang Geon's title was "Taejo." Daoism did not become a very established religion in Korea although Daoist views of nature did integrate with local Korean shamanism. Buddhism served as the state religion in the Korean Three Kingdoms, the Unified Shilla Period, and the Goryeo Period. Korea's "religions" should be Buddhist and Confucian.

Jin's leader depends on what era you focus on. The Jin Dynasty of the 12th century was founded by Wanyan Aguda. The Jin Dynasty that became the Qing and overthrew the Ming was founded by Nurhaci. The "Bannermen" refer to the Eight Banners system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Banners.

The Ming Dynasty was founded by Zhu Yuanzhang; he is also known as the Hongwu emperor.

The Song Dynasty's founder was Zhao Kuangming. The Song Dynasty was most certainly a Confucian period since that's when the Civil Service examination and the development of Neo Confucianism really took off.

I'd rename Nanyue to Nam Viet to be more inclusive of Viet kingdoms. Nanyue's founder was Trieu Da, but he's a bit controversial among Viets. Antiochius was in the process of making a Trung Trac leader. Maybe Trung Trac could be leader of the Viet peoples; she and her sister Trung Nhi ruled only for two years, but they're very symbolic figures nonetheless.

A building that gives a production bonus in water could perhaps be a shipyard or a trade port of some sort. Speaking of which, the rice trade from Southeast Asia greatly boosted the population of coastal provinces in China, which indirectly affected production in coastal cities. Maybe that could work? Blue Monkey could offer input on another alternative to include South Asia as well...

 

[Blue Monkey]

Blue Monkey could offer input on another alternative to include South Asia as well...

Just caught these last couple of posts on my way to bed. I'll comment tomorrow when I'm more coherent. But I know I'll have suggestions for your empty LH & UU slots from S Asia, and improvement suggestions as well ( I agree in substance with Ogedei, although I've only quick scanned his post).

 

[Yoda Power]

Thanks for the corrections, I'll update the list asap.

edit: but I'd rather use the greatest leaders than just the founders of the dynasties, that makes more sense I think. Any chance you could give some input on that?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Thanks for the corrections, I'll update the list asap.

edit: but I'd rather use the greatest leaders than just the founders of the dynasties, that makes more sense I think. Any chance you could give some input on that?

For the Ming Dynasty, Zhu Di (commonly known as the "Yongle" Emperor) is quite an important emperor. Yongle was an effective emperor although he was sometimes regarded as a ruthless usurper. He brought order and great prosperity to the Ming Dynasty and sponsored Zheng He's voyages.

Zhao Kuangyin, the founder of the Song Dynasty, was a highly accomplished emperor himself so he would serve well to represent the Song leader.

Nurhaci founded the second Jurchen Jin Dynasty and he brought about the Eight Banners system. What he started eventually led to the Jurchen / Manchu rise to power and his successors' conquest of the Ming.

 

[Yoda Power]

Ok thanks.

What should Nurhacis title be?

 

[Yoda Power]

I think I might chance Uighurs to the Yuezhi of Khotan, since that empire fits much better into the geography.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Sri Vijaya

• Leader: Either the founder - Dapunta Hyang Sri Jayanasa or Samaratungga - he built Borobudur.
• UU: Either a spearman or a fast, high-capacity transport ship because of their many invasions of other kingdoms. Here’s an image of a Malay Peninsula spearman that might be appropriate.

thumbnail


Majapahit

• UU: A unit with amphibious attack. If the Balinese guy on the left spruced up a little he might be appropriate - take a close look at his sword and think about him jumping at you over the gunwales.

thumbnail


Indus

• UU: Fast/Better/Cheaper Worker (Use Plotinus’)
• Religions: Muslim makes no sense. It did not exist within the culture, or at all anywhere until about 3000 years later. If they need 2 it would be more accurate in terms of cultural lineage to give them Buddhism.

Mughals

• UU: although the other Indian civs should also have elephants, an elite elephant unit, perhaps bearing musketeers, would make sense.

Maurya

• UU: An elite archer - archery held the same importance to the Indian warrior caste as the sword did for the samurai.

Vijayanagara

• UU: There’s a wide choice. To quote wikipedia: ”All high ranking ministers and officers were required to have military training. ...The empire was among the first in India to use long range artillery commonly manned by foreign gunners. (Gunners from present day Turkmenistan were considered the best). ...The army ... consisted of archers and musketeers wearing quilted tunics, shieldmen with swords and poignards in their girdles, and soldiers carrying shields so larges that no armour was necessary. The horses and elephants were fully armoured and the elephants had knives fastened to their tusks to do maximum damage in battle.” What seems the most different from the others in this group would be to give them earlier artillery.
• Traits: Militaristic & Industrious

If you decide on any of the UUs I suggested I can help you track down culturally relevant names.


Buildings

One that gives production in water, in the later eras.
The two buildings that alloq the city to grow beyond 6 ans 12.
A trade building that gives 50% more tax.
A Sugar specific building, with effects too.
And the same for Incense and Cotton.

A building that gives a production bonus in water could perhaps be a shipyard or a trade port of some sort. Speaking of which, the rice trade from Southeast Asia greatly boosted the population of coastal provinces in China, which indirectly affected production in coastal cities. Maybe that could work? Blue Monkey could offer input on another alternative to include South Asia as well...

• Rice was also important in South Asia, so maybe a Rice Granary for city growth.
• Shipyard & Port are fine for all the civs with coasts I’d think.
• If you want a different name you could call it an Entrepot (import/export warehouse).
• Pearl Divers' Shack would also work generally.

Both those last two could have a commercial more than production increase so maybe one could be the trade building.

A Sugar specific building, with effects too.
And the same for Incense and Cotton.

• Sugar: Sweets, but not necessarily “candy” as thought of in the West, are social delights in Asia. For example there is Paan in S & SE Asia and Dragon’s Beard in China, so I’d suggest a Confectioner’s building ( Paan Wallah would be strictly Indian) - making happy people of course. (“Who can take a sunrise, Sprinkle it with dew?...”)
• Incense: Incense Manufactory - the word is archaic, but suggests a place where there is mass production of things by hand - like making dhoop or stick incense. Maybe requiring a temple to build, a well as access to incense - could reduce corruption or increase resistance to propaganda if you think about it.
• Cotton: how about Batik Maker. While the name is Indonesian, the technique was used from India to China. It seems to me someone around here made a dyers' as a building. Add to commerce or increase luxury output, like the buildings in AD Classic.

And as a bonus here are some goodies I came across while researching this for you:

• Thalassocracy could be a new government favoring the seafaring civs. both Majapahit & Srivijaya are mentioned in the article.
• Here’s a map of the Majapahit Empire that may help out with some city names.
• This map based on the Periplus shows the sources of major trade items - helpful for placing luxuries & other resources.
• And this one shows the Asian kingdoms contemporary to Srivijaya. There are maps in the same series for other eras as well.

 

[Yoda Power]

Man, that's one nice post!

Sri Vijaya

• Leader: Either the founder - Dapunta Hyang Sri Jayanasa or Samaratungga - he built Borobudur.
• UU: Either a spearman or a fast, high-capacity transport ship because of their many invasions of other kingdoms. Here’s an image of a Malay Peninsula spearman that might be appropriate.

thumbnail

Yes I already decided on Samaratuga (I just updated the civ info before I went to bed, so you probably didn't notice), since as you said he build the Borodudur, and his reign also marks the beginning of the golden age.

A faster and slightly stronger transport ship sounds as a good UU, for this island kingdom, so that it will be. Any idea for a name?

Majapahit

• UU: A unit with amphibious attack. If the Balinese guy on the left spruced up a little he might be appropriate - take a close look at his sword and think about him jumping at you over the gunwales.

thumbnail

Good suggestions for a UU again. What should the name be? Balinese Warrior/Pirate/Officer, something like that?

Indus

• UU: Fast/Better/Cheaper Worker (Use Plotinus’)
• Religions: Muslim makes no sense. It did not exist within the culture, or at all anywhere until about 3000 years later. If they need 2 it would be more accurate in terms of cultural lineage to give them Buddhism.

Yes obviously they were never muslim, but by the time Buddhism arrived they had disappeared too. So none of them really fits as far as I can see. However it is a "Pakistani" civ in geography terms, so why not make it muslim? I agree though that Buddhism could fit just as well, but it's also good for gameplay, since there's already tons of Buddhist civs.

Yes I knew the better worker would come up, maybe I should chance Burmas UU then, the Kywan Worker, since it's kind of hard to have two worker UU's, that aren't alike.

Mughals

• UU: although the other Indian civs should also have elephants, an elite elephant unit, perhaps bearing musketeers, would make sense.

An elephant, really? I thought it was going to be some Turk Horse Archer that the Mughals invaded India with from Afghanistan, but you're the expert.
The only problem is the great lack of elephant units, I'm not sure what I'm going to do here. (Only a few of the elephant units are any good really)

Maurya

• UU: An elite archer - archery held the same importance to the Indian warrior caste as the sword did for the samurai.

Got any idea for a name? Elite Archer is a bit generic. Otherwise a fine choice.

[

U] Vijayanagara[/U]

• UU: There’s a wide choice. To quote wikipedia: ”All high ranking ministers and officers were required to have military training. ...The empire was among the first in India to use long range artillery commonly manned by foreign gunners. (Gunners from present day Turkmenistan were considered the best). ...The army ... consisted of archers and musketeers wearing quilted tunics, shieldmen with swords and poignards in their girdles, and soldiers carrying shields so larges that no armour was necessary. The horses and elephants were fully armoured and the elephants had knives fastened to their tusks to do maximum damage in battle.” What seems the most different from the others in this group would be to give them earlier artillery.
• Traits: Militaristic & Industrious

If you decide on any of the UUs I suggested I can help you track down culturally relevant names.

Hmm, I think I'll just see what available after I have added standard units then.

I was just about to make the Mil and Ind too, but then I realized that another civ had the same trait, so I went for Ind and Com, do you think that's completly wrong? Otherwise I'd like to keep it that way.

Buildings

• Rice was also important in South Asia, so maybe a Rice Granary for city growth.
• Shipyard & Port are fine for all the civs with coasts I’d think.
• If you want a different name you could call it an Entrepot (import/export warehouse).
• Pearl Divers' Shack would also work generally.

Both those last two could have a commercial more than production increase so maybe one could be the trade building.

Rice Granary sounds a bit weird when there's also the normal Granary, I'd rather not use that. :/
I think it will be Shipyard then.

• Sugar: Sweets, but not necessarily “candy” as thought of in the West, are social delights in Asia. For example there is Paan in S & SE Asia and Dragon’s Beard in China, so I’d suggest a Confectioner’s building ( Paan Wallah would be strictly Indian) - making happy people of course. (“Who can take a sunrise, Sprinkle it with dew?...”)
• Incense: Incense Manufactory - the word is archaic, but suggests a place where there is mass production of things by hand - like making dhoop or stick incense. Maybe requiring a temple to build, a well as access to incense - could reduce corruption or increase resistance to propaganda if you think about it.
• Cotton: how about Batik Maker. While the name is Indonesian, the technique was used from India to China. It seems to me someone around here made a dyers' as a building. Add to commerce or increase luxury output, like the buildings in AD Classic.

Confectioner's Building (how about Shop instead of Building?), seems fine.
So does and Incense Manufactory.
And Batik Maker.

And as a bonus here are some goodies I came across while researching this for you:

• Thalassocracy could be a new government favoring the seafaring civs. both Majapahit & Srivijaya are mentioned in the article.
• Here’s a map of the Majapahit Empire that may help out with some city names.
• This map based on the Periplus shows the sources of major trade items - helpful for placing luxuries & other resources.
• And this one shows the Asian kingdoms contemporary to Srivijaya. There are maps in the same series for other eras as well.

Hehe, we read the same articles, I came across Thalassocracy too, also one of the map links, but thanks anyway.