Eastern civ in development

[arkham4269]

You could also base the type of unit you get off the amount of mana which you control. As well as initial stats/promotions.

That is really cool. Even if you just stick with 'normal' elementals, every time you play, you'd end up with different creatures. Now that is what makes games interesting!

Is there a way to randomize what starting mana you get? Either that or each of the G/N/E leaders would have different mana to start with.

I like this idea even more than the 'one-step' promotion tied to a tech mentioned earlier. Plus, again, it gives the player a bit of control over the process. They still won't know what type of gate creature they are going to get, but at least they have a better idea of some of the promotions that will come with it.

While this is a kick-ass idea, it does show that these gate/shrine creatures couldn't be to powerful or they easily unbalance the game.

It also shows why this 'Tetsujin' Civ might want to be a bit expansive; getting those 'free' mana from things like the Pyre Seraphic or Mount Kashyyyk. That and building things like the Tower of Necromancy. Plus it would seem that they would really want to pursue the Tower of Mastery victory.

 

[arkham4269]

As for the leader, I have at least an idea of portrait for a woman commander type. I already shown it in the previous thread: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1630883&postcount=65. Actually, it's supposed to be the result of the merging of victorian and japanese cultures. I think she looks commander and asian. It wouldn't be difficult to come with some story. I can do that (or not, that's your call Ahwaric).

They only problem I have with 'posh spice' is that seem seems a bit Martial. That being said, since Ahwaric wants a G/N/E leader, she looks like she could easily fill the E role.

 

[Broken Hawk]

An Asian civ may be great but I wonder if can made to fit in lore wise. I have my doubts. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[arkham4269]

One thing that bothers me about using the FF-Kahdi and turning them into a elemental Tetsujin Civ is the back story of 'Kahdi' being tempted works fine for him if he is the only leader. But we know that Ahwaric wants a G/N/E counterparts.

Thus the 'problem' is that in base FF-Kahdi, their leader is mostly Good in that he wants to gain knowledge and use it to raise up his people. However there is a lot of arrogance and pride that may lead him to a fall. In a sense, he's sort of like Batman, willing to do things for the greater good but also refusing to let anyone else help. He has to be the one to save the day.

Anyway, the point is it is easy to have the Good leader be tricked into Evil if the player wants to go that route and I guess the Neutral leader would be the same. Yet how do you 'tempt' an evil leader into doing evil? I mean what 'choice' does the leader have at that point? The only thing I can think of is the evil leader falls into the old D&D alignment of lawful evil so like Darth Vader, he wants to bring ORDER to the galaxy and isn't going to be nice about it. Like Dr. Doom, while not a nice guy, he genuinely cares for his people and while they fear him, his people go along with him.

So perhaps the Evil leader's choice wouldn't be between knowledge and greed, but between what cost the power will be. So perhaps the world spell needs to be tweaked so that if you choose the evil route, you gain more power but at the cost of perhaps having your cities get hit like a nasty version of the Calabim world spell or something that does bad things to the cities. Then you have the Evil character faced between really going with the "I will do ANYTHING to achieve my goal" and saying, "Whoa! I'm not going to destroy the village to save it!" At that point the Evil leader changes either to neutral or good. (I would think neutral)

Form a story point of view, the them of Darth Vader/Dr. Doom is a pretty good place to start. Is the Good leader Anikan "I'm a Whiner" Skywalker who starts out with a desire to help people and is seduced into evil by being led astray by his good intentions? Or is he Dr. Doom, evil and ruthless but wanting his people to reflect him (great and powerful) but when given the 'keys to the castle' as it were, realizes the price is to high.

The Neutral leader to me could be like the scientist who is interested in the 'pure' science but not really the consequences of them. So sort of like Bruce Banner who in pursuit of knowledge creates the deadly gamma bomb, perhaps at the point of choice, the Neutral leader is confronted that for everything s/he discovers, there are real consequences for Erebus. So then the leader has to take responsibility of what s/he's create (shade of Iron Man realizing what his weapons where doing) or turning their back on people, seeing them as mere lab rats in his quest for ultimate knowledge.

Lots to play with, really!

 

[arkham4269]

Sorry, don't mean to spam here, but I'm waiting for some paint to dry so I have time!

The main theme of the FF-Kahdi leaves the Amurites. From there we can go.

Good Leader: Feels stifled by the Amurites and perhaps feels they don't see the dangers of Erebus that he can save them from. (Again the Good leader seems to beg to have the arrogant/prideful problem). Angel shows up and says, "You're right to see the danger and I can help you. Go forth and found your own people and you can be the Savior!" So off s/he goes.

Neutral Leader: Similar to the above, but if we go with the idea I put forth in the above post, perhaps in his search for 'ultimate knowledge' he goes past ethical limits. He's not evil, he just totally either doesn't think about the moral issues or just believes that the greater good requires some sacrifices. Not a 'mad' scientist but just one that is dedicated to the quest. The Amurites, however, don't take kindly to his experiments and boot him. Up shows the Angel and gives him the pitch. So off s/he goes.

Evil Leader: Feels the Amurite leadership is failing to fully step-up to the example of Kyrollin (sp) and feels that unless 'some omelettes are broken to make eggs' the Amurites will fall. The Amurite council disagrees and banish him after a failed coup attempt or something. Up pops the Angel saying, "They don't understand what needs to be done to save your people. Only you can save them...but not here. I will help you." So off s/he goes.

So what happens is the leader goes off and finds this remote group of people that survived the Age of Winter/Ice through their connection to of the divine in everything (kami) which they get through intense study, meditation, and a physical regime.

The Good leader will be like, "Great! A people steeped in magic, lore and duty! I couldn't ask for better!"

The Neutral leader will be like, "Great! A people in tune with knowledge as well as a path not taken by the others. What a great opportunity to learn!"

The Evil Leader will be like, "Great! A people who understand disciple and duty and who push themselves to achieve that goal! With me as their leader, I will save all of Erebus."

So to me, the Good leader wants to gain magical knowledge and build up his people because he feels that they will be the bulwark against evil and that 'shining city on the hill' that will light the way. I'm thinking that this leader would be something like Charismatic/Creative. For mana, Body, Earth, Life.

The Neutral leader mostly wants to be left alone to further the pursuit of knowledge but will aggressively pursue what he desires for his studies (like mana nodes or unique sites that provide mana). I'm thinking Philosophical/Defender with Mind, Nature and Enchantment for mana.

The Evil Leader wants to bring Order to Chaos and feels that only S/He can do it so will do it by force if needed. Perhaps Expansive/Charismatic with Spirit, Fire, Law

 

[Ahwaric]

One thing that bothers me about using the FF-Kahdi and turning them into a elemental Tetsujin Civ is the back story of 'Kahdi' being tempted works fine for him if he is the only leader. But we know that Ahwaric wants a G/N/E counterparts.

Do I?
First of all, I want to drop all ties to Khadi. It is just limiting factor, and I prefer a fresh start. And I think I have quite different view on them...
For me, they are mostly neutral, with close ties to nature. They know gods, but their worship is more primal i nateure, with ties to nature and elemental "gods" - just like druids are in D&D.

Second, as Xienwolf suggested, I do not want to cover all asian civs in one. So to be precise: I want to loosely base them on Taoism (mostly) and maybe zen (Chán) buddhism. So it is mostly Chinese, Nippon will have to wait.

I want to implement the "flow of the universe", balance of jin and jang and elements. This may as well include some shamanism/lamaism influences, so ancestor spirits are ok. Just another kind of spirits.
I do not see them as venerating apocalypse though, but rather trying to prevent it by maintaining balance.

I really like mechanics Xienwolf described. I would like it both giving new units (different kinds of elementals and spirits), but also influencing normal, living units. Maybe some phases, changing from turn to turn, with different elements dominant? And stronger effects with AC raising - both good and bad, but becoming worse as the AC increases (world out of balance).

Also, I do not want them to use magic and mana the tradfitional way. Mana will be mostly used for the above mechanics. They would not have normal mages, also priests as an agnostic civ. Instead, on top of the elemental effects they would have some kind of "druidic" casters, with selection of spells, mostly elemental in nature.

I think the current Elohim monks may end as the new civ units (really need to think of the name, but I know nothing of Chinese).
Another thing, I would not mind tossing some advanced alchemy for them - looking for philosopher's stone and elixirs of immortality...

 

[Seon]

BtW how do you like my leader portrait? It is the first one on the site where I supplied the url

 

[Valkrionn]

You could also base the type of unit you get off the amount of mana which you control. As well as initial stats/promotions.


Elementalism Mana Types: Grant access to specific unit lines (Air = Recon, Earth = Melee, Fire = Archery, Ice = Siege, Water = Mounted). The more you have the better the type of spawn from that set

Divination Mana Types: Grants enhancements to starting promotions for the units. (Law = Command, Life = Medic, Mind = Drill, Spirit = Combat, Sun = Sentry). Multiple copies of a mana type granting additional ranks in the promotion line (3 Sun Mana switching to Perfect Sight since Sentry III doesn't exist and each should offer at LEAST 3)

Alteration Mana Types: Grant enhancements to starting stats of the units. (Body = Defense Strength, Creation = Movement, Enchantment = Sight Range, Force = Attack Strength, Nature = Withdrawal Chance). Stacks nicer than Divination since you are making modifications to the unit directly, but doesn't offer the chance of opening up advanced promotions for your early XP spending pleasure.

Necromancy Mana Types: Modifies Spawn Appearance rules. Normal spawning is just random chance. (Chaos = chance to spawn in owned tiles when entered by an enemy unit (kinda like Treants work), Death = Chance to spawn when you kill an enemy unit, Dimensional = Chance to spawn when another gate unit spawns, Entropy = Chance to spawn when one of your units dies, Shadow = Chance to spawn when Diplomatic Relations shift (ie - Might spawn a couple stacks when war is declared)). Chances and/or quantity modified by number of the mana controlled.

Metamagic: Enhances Rate of spawn appearance (for all allowed spawn methods based on Necro Mana). Or Counts fractionally along with each other mana type, specific fraction set on a per-Mana Type basis since for some it would be overpowered to use a 2-1 exchange, and on others it would be pointless to use a 5-1 exchange.

That would actually work very nicely... You'd have a natural limit to how strong they can become, but they should be able to keep up with Champions, as well as being able to be specialized towards your playstyle. Could be a pain to code though.

 

[arkham4269]

First of all, I want to drop all ties to Khadi.

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

 

[Valkrionn]

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

I wouldn't say noone likes your ideas, but rather that starting fresh, without basing it on a different civ, opens up more options, as well as allowing more interplay between the mods... If it goes well, the civ might be included in FF, in the same way the Mazatl and the Scions were included in Orbis.

 

[civ_king]

contrary to popular belief, there are not but 2 types of morality but rather 3, moral, immoral and amoral
BTW I like Xienwolf's Idea

 

[Valkrionn]

contrary to popular belief, there are not but 2 types of morality but rather 3, moral, immoral and amoral
BTW I like Xienwolf's Idea

Actually, seeing as Amorality is defined as the LACK of morals, I'd say there are still only two actual types of morality. Of course, since morality depends on the person and society, there are really many types of moral systems.

 

[civ_king]

adj: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

 

[Valkrionn]

adj: not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

You just proved my point. Something that lacks moral quality cannot then be defined as a moral system; It is without morality, and therefore separate.

BUT this is going to get off topic fast, so this is my last reply on morality... Don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[civ_king]

good choice, I agree

 

[sputnik323]

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.
(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

I think many people like your ideas... I have proposed many ideas on a lot of forums, some get in and some don't. The whole concept of these forums is to brainstorm and generate ideas. Sometimes the best ideas are built off of something that is isn't used but gets creative juices flowing. (or hearing others' views showing that some ideas are better left out)

If you want to make specific changes than you will probably need to learn code and make your own mod.

@Ahwaric - zen doesn't exclude Nihon. Japan is mostly Buddhist and in many ways it was more integrated into their cultural systems than it was in China. But that is neither here nor there if you want to focus on China...
One aspect of eastern thinking of war I would like to include in this civ is using your opponents force or strength against them. like an ability of a monk (or hero) type unit that gets stronger against a stronger opponent. So if fighting a weak unit, they keep balance and are weak. But facing a hero, they become strong (if just a non hero unit then it probably should be capped somehow). Another thing if maybe not based on strength it could work on first strikes (or both). The more first strikes the opponent has the more strength increases. Don't know if this would be too difficult to code or not. Usually my ideas are

 

[Ahwaric]

Of course you do. No one ever likes my ideas regardless of which ever forum I'm on.

This is simply not true. I think plenty of your ideas got into/influernced Orbis.
Even the idea of Asian civ came from our discussion.

But ask yourself a question, what do we get from calling them Khadi? We change a lot: flavour, creatures summoned, background...
I think we should avoid such things for two reasons:

• the original creator intended tham as a civ they are. now we come and change everything except name and some minor things (yeah, I would call mage xp and such a minor thing)
• confusion for the players - they play Khadi in FF and then they decide to try them in Orbis. And it is like playing completly different civ. For me, borderline is what I have done to Mazatl and Scions, espeically Mazatl. There are some changes especially in spells (in case of Mazatl, the world spell, as I do not like building spells for world ones), plus some changes to traits. And this alone causes a lot of confusion...
• freedom of creation - what Valkrionn said

Wait, that are three reasons

(sigh) This is what I get for never learning Python or HTML code.

It is never to late to learn I can help you if you want to mod/add something. Just do not promise to add everything to main modmod.

Japan is mostly Buddhist and in many ways it was more integrated into their cultural systems than it was in China. But that is neither here nor there if you want to focus on China...
One aspect of eastern thinking of war I would like to include in this civ is using your opponents force or strength against them.

I agree, Zen is even most often associated with Japan even if it orginated in China. But I think there is a space for more than one civ, and I want one that focuses on Taoist thinking.
Japan one would be more Samurai/ninja thing, with highly trained, elite troops (though I do not think samurais were that much better trained than european knights, plus no one will ever convince me that katana was better than european swords or hussar sabre )
I like the idea of strength scaling to the opponent. No idea how to implement it though.

@Seon
The picture is, well, bright. I am not sure it fits other leader portraits and not aeastethics I like. But well, it is supposed to be an Eastern civ, so what do I know?
I am not the best person to talk of this stuff, I just was interested in Taoism, so that one I may try to achieve...

 

[Opera]

plus some changes to traits. And this alone causes a lot of confusion...

Quite confusing, yes. I was utterly surprised to see Khset adopting FoL. Also quite surprised to learn Khset's a she. But that is another thing. BTW, their new world spell is just wow to see.

The picture is, well, bright. I am not sure it fits other leader portraits and not aeastethics I like. But well, it is supposed to be an Eastern civ, so what do I know?
I am not the best person to talk of this stuff, I just was interested in Taoism, so that one I may try to achieve...

Well, now that you have ruled out Japan-ish, I think my picture don't fit at all. But I found two others: http://pokefreak.deviantart.com/art/The-Aggressive-Grace-of-Battle-83519206 and http://shuangwen.deviantart.com/art/A-man-53819521; wait, here's a third : http://heise.deviantart.com/art/warrior-in-the-dark-107827289. All male. Won't be hard to find women though. Have you any idea of what kind of picture you'd like? Chinese, I got it. One good, one neutral, one evil, that's it? But more like "traditional chinese", "warlike", "fantasy"? I'm searching through a lot of art websites for my own leaders, so if I stumble upon something...

Thinking about the civ hero: I think I said it before but what about a chinese dragon? Well, whatever the model, name or the rest, I think you could make it with affinity 1 to all the elemental manas. It would start with a low strength, like 4 (which is also the number related to death iirc but that's just pure coincidence...) and gain 1 with each elemental manas... So it would have 8 with earth, fire, water and air. Could be enabled by the Elementalism tech; or by the Elemental Tower.

 

[Seon]

I personally like the second one, buy what do I know? Anyway I personally thought that Japan was more of Shintoism, but I will have to research that more carefully. Sorry you don't like my leader portrait, I don't really know that much art web-sites and that was all I could find ...

And on the subject of heroes, I don't really like the dragon idea, but it could work. I was more thinking of basing it on a swordsman. (Samurai, ronin, whatever Chinese warriors they call themselves (at China, they distinguished themselves by which swordsmanship they practiced)).

Will have to think about the actual effect to make sure that it isn't gamebreaking

 

[Opera]

I thought the dragon could be good because it'd add another civ which can found Cult of the Dragon. And it has something mystical that I like. Maybe it could be the physical expression of the multitude of ancients they worship. Well, that's just thoughts.

Otherwise, I have found two other pics: http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/7_2.jpg and http://massiveblack.com/mbNew/images/illus/update/4_9.jpg. The second is not that asian (well, not taking the dragon in account) but it is well "elemental-ish".