Eastern civ in development

I thought it was decided to leave the Khadi out of it, you've been the only one talking about them at all.
Lone Wolf & Cub didn't have any warrior monks/mysticism in it really, beyond the Mu that was in the one chapter in the beginning.
 
I thought it was decided to leave the Khadi out of it, you've been the only one talking about them at all.
Lone Wolf & Cub didn't have any warrior monks/mysticism in it really, beyond the Mu that was in the one chapter in the beginning.

Not so. My comment about the mystic civ being 'loosely' based on the Kahdi was merely that they would have a similar idea in the planar gate. You could easily say that they have a similar mechanic to the Sheaim.

As for the warrior-monk, I was alluding to the concept of one very trained warrior capable of doing what a group of soldiers could not. As for LW&C, I would disagree since though out the entire story, Ito Ogami is all about meditation and being one with what he is. Yes, it was clearly spelled out in the chapter when he has to kill the Buddhist monk, but the "Assassins Road" he sets out on with the whole "When you meet the Buddha; kill the Buddha" idea carries throughout the chapters.

Besides, it doesn't have to be one guy. I mean the Seven Samurai kicked serious ass by themselves. My point was instead of having blocks of Heavy Infantry, this civ would have a few units made up of highly trained fighters. It is a reoccurring theme in that genre that to be a great fighter, you have to be at one with yourself and it isn't all about the martial arts; learning poetry, calligraphy and the like all help toward that goal. Hell, look at "Wax on; Wax off"

So I don't think calling them warrior-mystics is that far off.
 
I like the style of ultra elite troops, maybe a civic called "Paragon Virtue" they are both synonyms of perfection, giving +x experience, +x% Military Unit production, to symbolize that perfection take time to achieve? (I think we should have a column just for civ civics...)
 
I thought it might be helpful to lay out how Chinese and Chinese-flavored civs have been handled in some other games. (Ahwaric said he first wants to do a Chinese-flavored civ, so that's what I focused on.) Hope some of these ideas will be useful.

In Age of Empires, the Shang have the following:

a) Villagers that cost 30% less; and
b) Wall hit points doubled.

In Age of Empires II, the Chinese have the following:

a) Start with additional villagers but fewer initial resources;
b) Technologies cost less;
c) Town Centers support more population;
d) Demolition ships have more hit points;
e) Unique unit is the Chu Ko Nu (fast-firing crossbowman); and
f) Unique technology is Rocketry, increasing the pierce attack of Chu Ko Nu and scorpions.

In Rise of Nations, the Chinese have the following:

a) Science research is cheaper;
b) Certain upgrades (Medicine, Herbal Lore, and Pharmaceutical) are free;
c) Non-military units (Citizens, Caravans, and Merchants) are created instantly;
d) All cities start out as Large Cities; and
e) A line of unique units that begins with Fire Lances and upgrades to Heavy Fire Lances, Manchu Musketeers, Manchu Riflemen, and Manchu Infantry.

Age of Empires III I haven’t played much, and have never played the Asian Dynasties expansion, so I’m working from the manual, which says that the hallmarks of the in-game Chinese are an advanced knowledge of gunpowder and a well-organized military. Some specifics:

a) Villages provide more population than a House and can garrison villagers and fatten livestock;
b) Gets siege earlier than all other civilizations;
c) Unique units are Chu Ko Nu, Qiang Pikeman, Arquebusier, Changdao Swordsman, Steppe Rider, Keshik, Iron Flail, Meteor Hammer, Flamethrower, Hand Mortar, and Flying Crow;
d) Armies train in groups of mixed units called Banner Armies.

In Civ 3, as many of you know, the Chinese UU is the Rider (replacing the Knight), and the civ traits are Militaristic and Industrious.

In the Civ 3 Warhammer mod, the Chinese-flavored Civ is called Cathay:
a) Civ traits are Industrious and Commercial.
b) Their UUs include the Stone Crossbowman (upgrades to Chu Ko Nu) and the Rider (upgrades to Heavy Rider).
c) Also, there are some units that are available only to Cathay and the Japanese-flavored Civ, Nippon: e.g., Arquebusier, Temple Dog.
d) And there are some wonders that are buildable only by the East Asian-flavored civs – I haven’t played Orbis in a while, so I don’t know if you want to have world wonders buildable only by one or two civs, so I'm not going into that here.

In Civ 4 BtS, the Chinese UU is the Cho-Ko-Nu (replaces the Crossbow, gets 2 first strikes instead of 1 and does collateral damage), UB is the Pavilion (replaces the Theater).

And finally, in Rhye’s mod the Chinese unique power is called Myriads and allows them to train melee and gunpowder units 1.5X faster.


So, some possibilities for the Dao based on the foregoing.

Population

1) Settlers and workers cost less (straightforward, but boring); or
2) Settlers and workers produced without food (I kind of like this, would make them unique, since no other civ has a mechanic like this); or
3) New cities start out with a population of 2 (could combine this with number 2, maybe).

Technology

1) Easiest way to give the Dao a tech bonus is to make buildings like the Elder Council, Library, and Alchemy Lab cost less for them.
2) Or, you could give them a UB replacing one of the research buildings and providing additional beakers.
3) Another possibility would be to use the Pavilion UB from BtS but give it a science bonus.
4) Each city could start out with a sage specialist (would work if new cities start out with a population of 2).
5) Just thought of this: they could build Academies without needing a Great Sage (not sure what the prerequisite tech would be).

Archery and Siege

Chu Ko Nu seems like an obvious UU for a Chinese-flavored civ. Could give all their archery units Barrage I, in addition.

I don’t know if/how you might want to reflect gunpowder or siege abilities:

-- Maybe giving their archery units Barrage I would suffice for their Arquebusiers;
-- And perhaps allowing them to build Catapults and Cannon earlier than other civs;
-- Maybe have gunpowder revealed to them by an earlier tech, if that’s possible;
-- Or have their gunpowder units cost less.


Anyway, just some thoughts for people to consider.
 
Well another possibility is to also use the Korean Hwacha. Too good of a unit to pass up and besides, its a UU that already exists and gives good flavor.

...besides it was featured on Mythbusters and passed. What's not to like? :goodjob:
 
Hwacha would only be available after gunpowder, right?
 
@arkham4269:

I focused on Chinese because Ahwaric had written that that's what he's thinking. I don't know if he's thinking of separate Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Mongol-flavored civs, or if he's going to do a single East Asian-flavored civ combining aspects of each. If it's the former, then the Hwacha should go with the Korean-flavored civ; if the latter, then the Hwacha can be used together with the Chu-Ko-Nu and other units like the Samurai, Keshik, Mangudai,etc.
 
I focused on Chinese because Ahwaric had written that that's what he's thinking. I don't know if he's thinking of separate Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Mongol-flavored civs, or if he's going to do a single East Asian-flavored civ combining aspects of each. If it's the former, then the Hwacha should go with the Korean-flavored civ; if the latter, then the Hwacha can be used together with the Chu-Ko-Nu and other units like the Samurai, Keshik, Mangudai,etc.

Well I'm thinking that there is enough similarities in the Chinese/Korean/Japanese to merit one Civ as opposed to the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian civ. Not trying to insult those cultures but if you think about it, there isn't that much MAJOR difference between France/Spain/England either when looking at 'gross' difference that one sees in FfH civs.

Personally I think the Hwacha takes the place of the canon. It doesn't even need to be that much different other than I think it would be more of an anti-personnel than a siege weapon.

As for a Mongol civ, why bother? We already have the Hippus.
 
And it will have longer range and more damage (flesh<arrows) but less collateral danage and less powerful err... I forgot the term, but anti-fortification (stone>arrows).

So... It will be similiar to Ballista?
 
And it will have longer range and more damage (flesh<arrows) but less collateral danage and less powerful err... I forgot the term, but anti-fortification (stone>arrows).

So... It will be similiar to Ballista?

Hmmm, after watching a demonstration of a Hwacha built to specs on Mythbusters, I'd say the range is similar to that of a canon. The difference is that a battery of canons can only hit so many people, even with a grazing, bouncing shot. (Obviously the defensive fire of canons using canister/grape shot is a whole different story) whereas a battery of hwachas (each firing 100 arrows at a time) would really impact on your typical tight formation of infantry. Wikipedia says they were mainly used defensively and in naval engagements. Perhaps if the civ used Junks and the like, the animation could be changes to show a shower of missiles rather than trading canon broadsides.
 
I am a Korean and I never heard of such tales. We never put Hwacha in ships, it was simply to unwileldy and too hard to reload, if even one battery missed then the enemies would board the ships. Most ships used traditional cannons, boarding, ramming, archers, and occasionally 'flame projecting cannon'.

Hwachas were usually stationary weapons and not very important in Korean History. Most people will know about it when you ask them, but they won't know which battle it was used for, hwacha's brilliance is outshone by the Turtle Ship, which was said to be able to cast out smokescreen to blind the enemy while ramming them and firing cannons, but mostly ramming. Some sources say that it even breathed fire, but this is most likely to be an exaggeration of the fact that it burnt sulfur to produce a smokescreen.

Edit: model of the Turtle Ship

Spoiler :
Turtle%20ship.jpg


Edit 2: Can you Imagine THIS on that kind of ship?

Spoiler :
800px-Hwacha2.jpg
 
I am a Korean and I never heard of such tales.

Well that's what you get when you have a bunch of round-eyes doing Wikipedia. :lol:

Hwachas were usually stationary weapons and not very important in Korean History.

That doesn't matter; they're cool! :goodjob:

Most people will know about it when you ask them, but they won't know which battle it was used for, hwacha's brilliance is outshone by the Turtle Ship, which was said to be able to cast out smokescreen to blind the enemy while ramming them and firing cannons, but mostly ramming. Some sources say that it even breathed fire, but this is most likely to be an exaggeration of the fact that it burnt sulfur to produce a smokescreen.

Actually I miss the old Turtle Ship which I first saw in the old Civ III Double Your Pleasure/Rise and Rule mods that were the precursor to today's Rise of Mankind mod. Yet I don't think the Turtle ship made it to Civ IV. :(
 
The Turtle ship did not, I was pretty angry about the fact that they ditched Turtle Ship for a siege weapon I didn't even hear about. :(
 
Edit 2: Can you Imagine THIS on that kind of ship?

Actually yes I can. Watching it fire in the Mythbusters episode, all one would need is a good backstop and sand and you'd have a lot less wear and tear on the ship than canons do with their recoil.

Plus since the arrows exploded, the flames potential is pretty impressive. Don't sell you ancestors weapons short! :clap:
 
If my ancestors were smart enough to make the hwacha (basically meaning 'cart of flames'), they sure as heck were smart enough to try it on a ship, but they never die. The reason is because of the flame projecting cannons. These cannons not only burnt the enemy fleet, but was able to reload with extreme swiftness, ensuring a continuous barrage. Hwacha gave a devastating barrage but was one shot only in naval warfare when by the time you reloaded, you would be able to see the whites of their eyes, although not in a good sense.

Think about it this way, endorse hordes of enemies are coming and you have two choices of weapon, sniper rifle that can kill an enemy with a single shot but slow to reload and a machine gun with plenty of ammo. I would choose the machinegun despite it being inaccurate in my opinion...
 
Think about it this way, endorse hordes of enemies are coming and you have two choices of weapon, sniper rifle that can kill an enemy with a single shot but slow to reload and a machine gun with plenty of ammo. I would choose the machinegun despite it being inaccurate in my opinion...

Well theoretically I could see the hwacha actually coming before the canon. I mean the Chinese had fireworks long before the canon was invented.
 
Well I'm thinking that there is enough similarities in the Chinese/Korean/Japanese to merit one Civ as opposed to the Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian civ. Not trying to insult those cultures but if you think about it, there isn't that much MAJOR difference between France/Spain/England either when looking at 'gross' difference that one sees in FfH civs.

Personally I think the Hwacha takes the place of the canon. It doesn't even need to be that much different other than I think it would be more of an anti-personnel than a siege weapon.

As for a Mongol civ, why bother? We already have the Hippus.

The Far East should be merged together, they all copied their writing system off the Chinese, and have similar cultures, between those three civs, there should be enough unique units to go around, Cho-Ko-Nu should have outrageous first strike ability but should be weakened and cheapened, Hwacha should have a big strength&no bonus versus city&move faster&bonus versus mêlée, Turtle ships should have a HUGE strength but be slower, I'll post more as I think of it

EDIT1:OMG!!!
wikipedia said:
The "Hwangja", or "yellow" (hangul:&#54889;&#51088;)cannon was the smallest and the most accurate cannon, was about three feet long, and was capable of accurately delivering a cannonball up to target 1590 meters away.
the bolding is mine

are we going to use junks as ship UUs? they were ocean going as early as the 2nd century? wow, I was just reading up on the Treasure Ships and some accounts say they had nine masts, four decks, were 450 by 180 feet, that is gigantic,
 
are we going to use junks as ship UUs? they were ocean going as early as the 2nd century? wow, I was just reading up on the Treasure Ships and some accounts say they had nine masts, four decks, were 450 by 180 feet, that is gigantic.

I would hope so. One reason I felt for some Asian Civs is most Fantasy art and graphics is very Northern European/Tolkein sort of thing. Frankly it gets boring. I mean I'm surprised Ahwaric hasn't used the Arabic Xebec in place of the Malakim Frigate.

To me, a Junk doesn't even have to be a UU; just the graphics used for the Galleon. In fact, someone with more access to Asian naval history could probably find the equivalent to the Galleass and Frigate.

I would think the Korean Turtle Ship could be the Asian version of the Mechanos Ironclad. While sources show it wasn't a an ironclad, the design of it reminds me of a 'timberclad' where the wood planking has been designed to help deflect cannonballs.
 
It very much was a "timberclad" however it had metal spikes on the roof
 
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