Economy

[CJSChris]

Dear CIV members, I have been reading this forum the last week and I am happy to have gained alot of new knowledge. It's very interesting to read all the different topics and opinions.

In any case, the reason why I want to write a post is because I regurarly bump into topics connected to economy. Most of the time I read phrases such as "Specialist Economy" or "Farm Economy" or "Cottage Economy"? The concepts and the exact details of these strategies are still a bit fuzzy for me, so I am hoping that someone could help me and explain the basics of it + the pros and cons. Thanks for any help!!

Cheers! Chris

 

[Defiant47]

The two economies are as such:

Cottage Economy: You put cottages in a lot of places. Everywhere you can, without making any tiles useless. They grow and make a lot of money. That's what your economy is based on. Works well with Financial leaders.

Farm Economy/Specialist Economy: You put farms in a lot of places. This will mean you'll have tons of extra food. You use that extra food to be able to assign specialists. You go with representation so that your specialists are that much more effective. In harder difficulties, you not only use your great people to discover technologies (the lightbulb option), but you do it strategically because you know how the lightbulbing works for each great person (shown in a thread, I can direct you to it if you want). A pleasant side effect of this type of economy is that it works very well with slavery, because your population is back up in no time.

It has been argued that the FE/SE works better than the CE. I myself use the CE because it's so much easier and I usually work with Financial leaders. However, I will try the FE/SE when I go to the next level.

 

[CJSChris]

Thanks for your post!

I tend to, besides the first improvements, put my workers on automate... so I guess/assume my cities are therefore more all-round and less specialized (both food or cottages). Is this "automate economy" a good strategy or is it better to direct the workers in every move?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I tend to, besides the first improvements, put my workers on automate... so I guess/assume my cities are therefore more all-round and less specialized (both food or cottages). Is this "automate economy" a good strategy or is it better to direct the workers in every move?

Surrendering control of the workforce to the AI means that your play in that area of the game won't exceed that of your computer opponents. Seems to me that you should be able to anticipate your own strategy, and make more appropriate choices.

Unless you just don't think managing workers is much fun, in which case you should definitely flip the switch.

Edit: and welcome aboard

 

[CJSChris]

I never thought about it actually. I assumed the AI would make the best worker decisions. The next time I play a game I'll try cottage economy!

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[Defiant47]

Thanks for your post!

I tend to, besides the first improvements, put my workers on automate... so I guess/assume my cities are therefore more all-round and less specialized (both food or cottages). Is this "automate economy" a good strategy or is it better to direct the workers in every move?

Automating workers is never a good strategy. A good player (sorry for the potential offense) will not only manage his/her workers, giving orders after evaluating the situation and choosing the most logical improvement, but will also manage city workers, telling them exactly which tiles to work, based on what the player wants to achieve. Don't get too crazy with micromanagement, but you should strive to be good enough to be able to do this.

EDIT: Sorry, I posted reply, had to go for 30 minutes, and came back without knowing someone else responded

 

[jamuraa]

I tend to automate workers for later game tasks, like railroading my entire continent. I find it easier than doing it all myself (and it saves a bunch of time too), and if I have the "workers leave old improvements" option on, then they don't mess with my economy. I usually leave a couple unautomated for making sure I get the high-priority things like hooking up aluminum that shows up under a windmill or something.

This thread was useful if only to more throughly define Specialist Economy for me. I always run a Cottage Economy and hadn't thought that much about the SE.

 

[jerVL/kg]

I ran a Specialist Economy exactly once...by accident.

It was a typical map, but the grain resources were so oddly located, I had to build several grassland farms to irrigate them. Other cities were production-high but very food-poor, so I wound up building lots of farms and far fewer cottages than normal. Built the Pyramids, so I had early Representation + later Mercantilism.

I didn't assign any specialists, nor did I check to see what specialists the City Governor was assigning. So nothing seemed unusual until I needed cash for troop upgrades and dropped science down to zero percent -- and hardly lost any beakers at all!

 

[CJSChris]

I'm still confused what the advantages are of a specialized economy. Isn't the city better off if I to let the citizens work on a tile so that the cities get more food (cities grew faster), and production (buildings and units are made faster) in stead of letting your citizens become specialists? At least, this is what I thought till now, but maybe I have been underestimating specialists?

 

[Defiant47]

I'm still confused what the advantages are of a specialized economy. Isn't the city better off if I to let the citizens work on a tile so that the cities get more food (cities grew faster), and production (buildings and units are made faster) in stead of letting your citizens become specialists? At least, this is what I thought till now, but maybe I have been underestimating specialists?

The only purpose of food is to have workers/population, so "isn't it better to work a tile that gives me food" is only valid if that food brings you good things.

There are two situations for you to start assigning specialists:

You have reached maximum happiness: in this case, you start assigning everyone who is making surplus food as specialists.
You have reached maximum population (you're already working all the tiles): in this case, you start assigning extra people as specialists.

However, if you have a lot of plains or undeveloped tiles, you can choose either to work a one food one production tile and a one food one production one commerce tile OR just use that two food that you would get to have a specialist, like a scientist, and potentially produce 6 beakers (instead of two production and a commerce). Additionally, running a specialist economy allows you to drop the research rate to 0, yet still be making considerable amounts of research (giving you gold that could be useful for upgrading units or hurrying production).

Another important thing to note about specialists is that they create great person points, so it's not just 3/6 beakers you're getting from that scientist... you would eventually get a great scientist that can do all sorts of stuff (like discover a 1000 beaker technology in an instant)!

 

[Bagpuss]

In my last game I decided up-front that I would try out the SE that I'd read about here. There are two things to note before I relate my experiences:
1) I haven't played that many games (this was my second at Noble), therefore my implementation might(!) have been a long way from optimal.
2) I got dealt Genghis (randomly) who I know is not the ideal leader for this strategy.

Early Game:
Before I started tha game I expected I would be assigning plenty of specialists early on. I knew from my first Noble game that I would struggle against happiness early on whatever. I also decided I was going to need to crush the Russians for some expansion space quite early and made a beeline for Keshiks, ignoring religion until some spread to me. So no religion, and since I was prioritising the wrong techs it took me a long time to reach Calendar so no happiness resources for an awful long time either.
In other words, the ideal situation to run some specialists, right? Well I was building farms all over the place and had big food surpluses but every time I started bumping the happiness limit it always seemed a more attractive option to whip builds rather than assign a specialist.

Mid Game:
Got rid of Cathy by which point Bhuddism had spread to me (faithfully building Temples), and I'd got Calendar, switched to HR, and a big standing army with not very much to do for now. All of a sudden the happiness ceiling effectively disappeared. At this point expanding up to it seemed a much better idea than assigning specialists because what I felt I really needed was production, especially as I was no longer in Slavery. Note that I think this was an area where I made a big mistake: I had gone to Caste System in anticipation of running the specialists which was, paradoxically the reason why I decided I needed to work tiles rather than specialise. Hmmm.....

End Game:
OK, now I'm sure I've got something wrong. Throughout the game I've never felt that I've been able to put my hands on enough cash. I have a sustainable deficit at 70% and I daren't go much lower because Mansa is approximately equal in tech. I have an outdated army because I can't afford to upgrade them and the last thing I want is more expenses bleeding away on more units. Lowering the slider seems like a bad idea as I don't have a tech lead over Mansa therefore I would need a huge numerical advantage to cause him any problems which may wreck my game completely. The only thing I had going for me was that I was Friendly with him so he wasn't about to attack me.

In the end I just squeezed a SR win, but it was tight and Mansa was operating with about 80% of my territory and 70% of my pop. We were practically neck-and-neck in GNP with barely 65% of Asoka's figure! (I have no clue how me did that with so few cities).

There just never seemed to be a right time to commit population as specialists. I'd really appreciate some pointers about where I'm going wrong in my thinking. Thanks.

(Sorry for the length of this post)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm still confused what the advantages are of a specialized economy.

Careful: the common term is specialist economy. Specialized economy (probably) means something different.

Also note that when you are talking about an economy, you are talking about the strategy taken by the civ as a whole, not on an city level; cities have particular specializations (for those players who take that approach) -> commerce, research, production, culture, mounted units, shipyards....

If you want to avoid additional confusion, adopt the local patois.

Advantage #1 to a specialist economy - more great people == more academies, more shrines, more rushed wonders, more trade missions, more light bulbs, etc.

Advantage #2 to a specialist economy - it converts in the blink of an anarchy to a whip driven production economy. Research/lightbulb your way to a military advantage, then immediately start whipping/drafting the units you need to exploit it.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

There just never seemed to be a right time to commit population as specialists. I'd really appreciate some pointers about where I'm going wrong in my thinking.

So would I, but let me see if I can offer anything useful...

...So no religion, and since I was prioritising the wrong techs it took me a long time to reach Calendar so no happiness resources for an awful long time either.
In other words, the ideal situation to run some specialists, right? Well I was building farms all over the place and had big food surpluses but every time I started bumping the happiness limit it always seemed a more attractive option to whip builds rather than assign a specialist.

Well, prioritizing the wrong techs is clearly a mistake Happiness is a strategic problem that you have to work out how you are going to address early.

Beyond that, I would question what you were building. I would expect that you could get by with Granary, Library, Barracks. That gets you two scientists per city, which should get things cooking a bit for you. All that's left to do is units.

At this point expanding up to it seemed a much better idea than assigning specialists because what I felt I really needed was production, especially as I was no longer in Slavery.

Why did you think you needed production?

I would normally expect that at this period, cities should either be running as many specialists as they can (which may include starving some of the food out of the granary) to get the next GP as soon as possible, then fire the specialists and grow as quickly as possible to the next happy cap, then hire the specialists and again race to the next GP.

If you fall into the trap of producing units to up the happy cap, and then using that population to work farms, and meanwhile you need more infrastructure to support your larger population, and then more hammers to get more happy, you can get stuck.

Instead, I suggest trying to be a bit more precise - focus the happiness, instead of spreading it out, allow yourself to run stagnant at your health limit, rather than pushing it. When you can't stand waiting for a building, get every city lined up with a couple of builds at once, then take a few turns in slavery to whip it out and continue.

OK, now I'm sure I've got something wrong. Throughout the game I've never felt that I've been able to put my hands on enough cash. I have a sustainable deficit at 70% and I daren't go much lower because Mansa is approximately equal in tech. I have an outdated army because I can't afford to upgrade them and the last thing I want is more expenses bleeding away on more units. Lowering the slider seems like a bad idea as I don't have a tech lead over Mansa therefore I would need a huge numerical advantage to cause him any problems which may wreck my game completely. The only thing I had going for me was that I was Friendly with him so he wasn't about to attack me.

My feeling generally with Mansa is that if you can stay close at all, you can reel him in during spaceship production. From the sound of things, you were having trouble staying close because you weren't ever running specialists hard - therefore you were getting many fewer GP than would normally be expected, and you may have been smearing them rather than making sure that every city popped a GP.


Disclaimer: Ive taken a few swings at running an SE, or even an SE with a commerce based capital, but never felt like I had actually done it right.

 

[Bagpuss]

Well, prioritizing the wrong techs is clearly a mistake Happiness is a strategic problem that you have to work out how you are going to address early.

What I meant by that was that there were certain techs I needed to fight that early war. I'm convinced I had this much right: the war was absolutely necessary. I needed the space Cathy was in and I needed it early. As it happens I couldn't get it early enough and needed to make a stop at Construction before I could execute the war properly, delaying Calendar even further. I knew I needed to think about happiness, and I knew I wasn't going to get an early religion as GK (not with the start that I had). Even now I think I got to Calendar as quickly as I reasonably could while getting rid of a rival, and securing territory that I had to have.
Unfortunately all the cash I pillaged from Cathy's cities got blown on keeping my research at a reasonable level while maintaining lots of units, and the Russian cities.

Beyond that, I would question what you were building. I would expect that you could get by with Granary, Library, Barracks. That gets you two scientists per city, which should get things cooking a bit for you. All that's left to do is units.

As you say, I was only building those basics, but instead of assigning the scientists I was constantly whipping for Keshiks, then swords and cats. Lost a few too.

Why did you think you needed production?

I definitely needed it for Temples and Courthouses. I thought I needed it for Forges, Markets, Theatres & Universities. I know there are a lot of places I didn't build Unis or Markets but I'm not sure I got some of these builds right.

I would normally expect that at this period, cities should either be running as many specialists as they can (which may include starving some of the food out of the granary) to get the next GP as soon as possible, then fire the specialists and grow as quickly as possible to the next happy cap, then hire the specialists and again race to the next GP.

I think the GP side of things is something I didn't appreciate at all. This could be the big missing piece that sabotaged my understanding of what I was supposed to be doing. I've been regarding the odd GP as a nice side effect of building wonders rather than as something to aim it. I didn't build any early wonders in this game as I had other things on my mind.

When you can't stand waiting for a building, get every city lined up with a couple of builds at once, then take a few turns in slavery to whip it out and continue.

This all reads like interesting and good advice, but this bit's easier said than done if you're not spiritual. I always see a civics switch as a very big deal if I'm looking at a turn or two of anarchy (= waste!).

My feeling generally with Mansa is that if you can stay close at all, you can reel him in during spaceship production. From the sound of things, you were having trouble staying close because you weren't ever running specialists hard - therefore you were getting many fewer GP than would normally be expected, and you may have been smearing them rather than making sure that every city popped a GP.

It sounds like you've probably put your finger on the biggest thing I botched in my execution of the strategy.
Mansa started building ship parts about 10 turns before I did and I thought the writing was on the wall, but he didn't build the SE. From what my spies could gather he never made any attempt at all to build it. If he had he would have won - it's that simple. He had the necessary tech about 5 turns before I did and I didn't have the cash to rush anything (nor GPs, obviously)! As it was my SE came online after I'd build about 3 casings and then I just overhauled him with 6 turns to spare. Does the AI often ignore the SE in a race?
(In this context SE = Space Elevator)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As you say, I was only building those basics, but instead of assigning the scientists I was constantly whipping for Keshiks, then swords and cats. Lost a few too.

I like this comment actually - it lead me down a line of thought I hope will be productive. To whit: are there certain civ's that don't fit well with caste system because their uber unit - and therefore their best military chances - appears during Caste System's sweet spot.

I think the GP side of things is something I didn't appreciate at all. This could be the big missing piece that sabotaged my understanding of what I was supposed to be doing. I've been regarding the odd GP as a nice side effect of building wonders rather than as something to aim it. I didn't build any early wonders in this game as I had other things on my mind.

For the big dogs who swear by farm economies, the GPs are the point: the idea being to win the race to a tech with a lightbulb, then trade it for equal value to allies, multiplying the beaker value of the GP several times. That's not going to be as effective on lower levels where achieving tech dominance can be achieved with a steadier approach.

Mansa started building ship parts about 10 turns before I did and I thought the writing was on the wall, but he didn't build the SE. From what my spies could gather he never made any attempt at all to build it. If he had he would have won - it's that simple. He had the necessary tech about 5 turns before I did and I didn't have the cash to rush anything (nor GPs, obviously)! As it was my SE came online after I'd build about 3 casings and then I just overhauled him with 6 turns to spare. Does the AI often ignore the SE in a race?
(In this context SE = Space Elevator)

Even with the Space Elevator, I wouldn't expect the AI to be able to touch you. Human players can set up cities that have 60+ hammers per turn (base), with all the production goodies, and the AI cannot (yet). ALC #11 has a good example of this - Sisiutil's cities were probably starting with 50% more production than the AI, so the ship parts were coming in several turns faster than the AI could spit them out.