Egypt / Ramesses

[Funak]

Nope. Nope especially where there can be no threat to your person or liberties. The mods reserve their rights to remove posts and censor language, but they can't remove my thinking it strange they cannot tolerate a calm and polite (as far as I saw) conversation about slavery in a thread about balancing the concept of slavery as executed in a civ's UA. People and communities grow through conversation. I refuse to normalize self-censorship under the threat of external censorship alone, ever.

1. You're not allowed to discuss mod-actions
2. The discussion was completely off topic
3. The conversation was not polite
4. Honestly, if you refuse to follow the rules of the forum you're posting on, you probably have nothing to do on that forum. This has nothing to do with what you think, or about your right to express yourself, there is a clear list of rules and by posting here you agree to follow them.

It gives us some overlap that causes something strange on civ select:

Egypt will allow me to get a huge amount of production from kills, which if I time right, I can use to murder-rush wonders.

Again, unless the CS to Production conversion is somewhere in the 10000%s, you're not going to get "huge amounts", especially since this promotion is going to give you production in one city while for example the danish UB gives you production in all cities. GAP per city is in most cases just going to be more useful.

Denmark will allow me to get huge amounts of production and culture to help me expand my borders (which has a powerful synergy with Authority's food and gold on border expands) and production which helps me whip through my production queue and get my infrastructure up in wartime (or produce more units.)

Again, that's a completely different ability.

I can honestly see myself hemming and hawing over this choice if I feel like playing imperialistically, and that's great.

The concern I have with this comes from Greece, The Aztecs, and The Celts.

Greece is the big one -- their UB gives the same culture from kills as Denmark's in a way that I see being fairly incomparable. Unless I am misunderstanding how much faster Greece produces Great Writers, I don't think I understand why I should pick Greece over Denmark.

I know that you really care about this, but could you keep it in the right thread? A comparison between Greece and Denmark have absolutely no place here, especially considering there is no similarity between how the forced labor promotion and the danish(or greek) building works.

But the Aztecs and Celts sit a bit awkwardly on the sidelines here, too, since they get national yields from kills that strike me as a bit weak. The Aztecs can god God of War and rush to a religion, which I guess could be strong enough to win out over picking Denmark or Egypt, but strikes me as so much less powerful than either Egypt or Denmark that it would need... something...? to compete, since their UA is being overshadowed by a UB.

The Celts have the same problem, if they go with The Morrigan, but the reason one selects the celts is for post-civ-select choices, I think. The Morrigan feels a bit weak to me, even compared to God of War, but definitely compared to Egypt's new Gift of the Pharaoh, since the local yields are potentially so much stronger.

This is actually a more relevant point, although I really don't know how you've already assumed that GotP is going to be "much stronger" considering we haven't seen any numbers on it and the current version of it is garbage.


The Aztec UA already gives you free golden ages for winning wars, which is meant to me the UA transition after the yields stop being relevant around the early midgame.

The Celtic pantheon I've never actually used so I have no idea about it.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

That's the problem though - everybody thinks the same about their views (I certainly do about mine, which is why I took the argument to the extend that I did), and thus we will just continue the argument, thus doing what the mods don't want us to do and thus just having our posts deleted and maybe even getting us banned.

This isn't a public forum (in the legal sense) so we might as well just bow our heads and keep on like normal. I don't like it but I can't change the rules.

It's a community mod. There should be community consensus on the representation of Egypt as a slaver nation. This requires a discussion, I think, about how societal and historical concepts are represented, especially if the community has two poles in it. Despite what US government has spent the last 16 years teaching us, people working in groups together while holding opposing opinions usually manage to find some sort of consensus, often a helpful one.

But I largely suspect that I am preaching to the choir, and I ultimately have respect for the Civ Fanatics mod team, since I know they come into these conversations without context and without the sorts of ulterior motives that guide other sorts of censorship.

So I registered this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/civvoxpopuli

And will mod any of the frequent fliers on this forum who send me a message there.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I know that you really care about this, but could you keep it in the right thread? A comparison between Greece and Denmark have absolutely no place here, especially considering there is no similarity between how the forced labor promotion and the danish(or greek) building works.

The Egyptian UB is being changed, I think, to give the Gift of the Pharoah promotion to all units produced in that city. The overlap is absolutely relevant.

Again, unless the CS to Production conversion is somewhere in the 10000%s, you're not going to get "huge amounts", especially since this promotion is going to give you production in one city while for example the danish UB gives you production in all cities. GAP per city is in most cases just going to be more useful.

If they're fighting in a golden age while building a wonder, the numbers are going to increase by some percentage, and will probably be significant. If you're not fighting during a golden age, they'll still getting enhanced by the regular percentage of Egypt's UA.

 

[Funak]

The Egyptian UB is being changed, I think, to give the Gift of the Pharoah promotion to all units produced in that city. The overlap is absolutely relevant.

There is a huge difference between a promotion giving you production based on CS for killed units and a building giving you flat production for every killed unit, chief among them being that the first one have negative scaling with empire-size and the second having positive scaling with empire-size

 

[Gothic_Empire]

There is a huge difference between a promotion giving you production based on CS for killed units and a building giving you flat production for every killed unit, chief among them being that the first one have negative scaling with empire-size and the second having positive scaling with empire-size

I don't see how Egypt's production would scale worse than Denmark's.

A knight has 25 cs and unlocks in the medieval period, yes? That's 15 production to Denmark's Jelling stones and 25 to Egyptian cities that are not building a wonder. Egypt will gain more and risk more for attacking stronger foes than weaker ones. Denmark thrives better by preying on weaker civs.

 

[Funak]

I don't see how Egypt's production would scale worse than Denmark's.

A knight has 25 cs and unlocks in the medieval period, yes? That's 15 production to Denmark's Jelling stones and 25 to Egyptian cities that are not building a wonder. Egypt will gain more and risk more for attacking stronger foes than weaker ones. Denmark thrives better by preying on weaker civs.

Seriously? Fine, I'll explain it very slowly.

Let's start by making some assumptions, let's assume that the GotP is going to give 2xCS as production, let's assume we are comparing two different empires, one empire with 1 city (hardly an empire) and one empire with 10 cities.

Empire 1(1 city, with the unique building). We kill a knight with a unit possessing the GotP promotion, we receive 50 Hammers in our capital (more if we are building a wonder, but whatever). If we were Denmark, this would give us 30 production (15 x era, in this case Medieval) in our capital. In this case the Egypt one wins out by 20 production.

Empire 2 (10 cities, all of them having the unique building built). We kill a knight with a unit possessing the GoTP promotion, we receive 50 Hammers in our closest city (Could be in the capital, don't remember exactly, point is we get it in one city). If we were Denmark we would receive 30 production (15x era, in this case Medieval) in EVERY city, which translates to 300 total production, severely outperforming the Egyptian UB.


The key points here is:
1. Buildings adding promotions have limited use, because in general you're only going to produce units in 2 or 3 cities, meaning the rest of your cities loses out on that benefit. This usually means the promotion have to be extraordinary good.
2. Promotions that don't directly boost your combat-performance are fun, but definitely not powerful. They make good choices for unique units, because you can pump up the CS to compensate, and a UU is designed to have way less impact on a civ than a UB.
3. All promotions converting CS to yields for killed units drop off rather heavily because CS of units increase a lot slower than the yield-inflation, this by itself isn't really a problem, as most of those abilities are designed for early-game advantages.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Seriously? Fine, I'll explain it very slowly.

That's as much as I'm reading from you. Have a good night.

 

[Gazebo]

Regarding the conversation's disappearance, something else happened elsewhere in the subforum and things went nuclear. Not getting into it, but it all traced back here. Anyways, I think it is safe to say that we all have different interpretations of things, and no one has ever convinced anyone of anything on the internet (ever), so best to just shake hands and chum off at this point.

I'm reconsidering the Burial Tomb change for now.

G

 

[Funak]

Regarding the conversation's disappearance, something else happened elsewhere in the subforum and things went nuclear. Not getting into it, but it all traced back here. Anyways, I think it is safe to say that we all have different interpretations of things, and no one has ever convinced anyone of anything on the internet (ever), so best to just shake hands and chum off at this point.

Yeah I finally snapped and reported 4 threads, not actually this one however, but I used this one as an example in one of the messages. Either way.


Anyways, back to the tomb. I think the tomb could turn out okay with the added GA synergy in the UA, if it doesn't we can just go back to this point again.

That's as much as I'm reading from you. Have a good night.

Good to know that effort once again was wasted.

 

[IcyAngel]

Which ancient era policy branch do you guys traditionally go for with Egypt?

Tradition's extended GA length and big capital is great, but then the flat production bonus from Authority combines superbly with the %wonder UA bonus and the on-kill bonuses make early warring with the UU even better of an opportunity.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Tradition into Authority or Authority into Aesthetics are both fantastic.

Which ancient era policy branch do you guys traditionally go for with Egypt?

Tradition's extended GA length and big capital is great, but then the flat production bonus from Authority combines superbly with the %wonder UA bonus and the on-kill bonuses make early warring with the UU even better of an opportunity.

 

[IcyAngel]

Tradition into Authority or Authority into Aesthetics are both fantastic.

Tradition into Authority doesn't sound good. All of Authority's bonuses fall off very hard -except the 10% CS I suppose-, so it ought to be your first policy branch imo. And Aesthetics is miles ahead of Tradition, so going Authority into Tradition wouldn't make sense either to me.

Authority into Aesthetics should be great, yeah. Or Piety, even, if you founded a religion. A cultural victory isn't mandatory.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Tradition into Authority doesn't sound good. All of Authority's bonuses fall off very hard -except the 10% CS I suppose-, so it ought to be your first policy branch imo. And Aesthetics is miles ahead of Tradition, so going Authority into Tradition wouldn't make sense either to me.

Authority into Aesthetics should be great, yeah. Or Piety, even, if you founded a religion. A cultural victory isn't mandatory.

I don't think you finish out Tradition in the Trad => Authority build. The strategy subforum post on it basically relies on stacking cheaper tile acquisition.

 

[Funak]

I know the Egyptian UA is completely off the hook bugged right now, so this thing I'm going to mention isn't even currently a balance issue but I'm going to say it anyways because that's just how I roll (or I'm afraid I'll forget it again in the next version, whichever explanation you find more reasonable).

I'm kinda weirded out by the fact that the Egyptian UB is now probably even worse than it was previously.

The only difference I see from a normal caravansary is +3 faith, -1 gold and that GAP from kills effect. Sure, +3 faith isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it unlocks in late classical, after all religions have been founded (at which point faith is one of the worst yields in the game, competing with gold and maybe flat tourism). Also this is a late classical UB with a sum total of +2 yields, that's less than most ancient era UBs, I mean even the Stele, which is pre-ancient era has +3 yields over a monument.
While the UB GAP effect is pretty decent, it is no where near enough to motivate an entire UB.

 

[tompliss]

Isn't part of the UA to build the wonders more quickly during GA ?

 

[Funak]

Isn't part of the UA to build the wonders more quickly during GA ?

Yes it is as far as I can tell. I was not talking about the UA however I was talking about the UB

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The UB could GAP on doing something instead of fighting (finishing TRs or building Buildings).

It used to give 5 Faith. It could give the Tourism boost on both types of TRs. Production Yields would be helpful to the UA.

 

[Funak]

The UB could GAP on doing something instead of fighting (finishing TRs or building Buildings).

It used to give 5 Faith. It could give the Tourism boost on both types of TRs. Production Yields would be helpful to the UA.

The GAP on winning combat isn't necessarily bad, if just a bit too similar to the Roman Colosseum(assuming it wasn't purposely nerfed). But considering the Burial Tomb unlocks later(at least 3 techs later) and is a way less useful basebuilding it is pretty awkward that the Colosseum is +5 yields compared to an Arena and the Burial Tomb is +2, and that's without factoring the point that the Colosseum's +5 yields are production and culture (extremely useful) while the Burial tomb provides faith(a lot less useful at this point of the game, especially since Egypt can't guarantee a religion).
The Colosseum also increases gold from city-connections on top of all that while the Burial tomb provides extra plunder to attackers (I think, haven't really tested that but it's in the civpedia)

 

[Forsti]

I think burial tomb should give Egypt extra culture. After all, it's the most important yield when trying to get wonders and Egypt doesn't get any extra culture before artifacts at the moment. Even though a massive part of Egypt revolves around building wonders, there are several civs with whom it's easier to build them, that being almost any civ that gets extra culture. It's sad that Egypt seemingly have a niche, but other civs fill that niche much better. I don't know if extra culture at late classical would make a big difference, but that would be something.

 

[Funak]

I think burial tomb should give Egypt extra culture. After all, it's the most important yield when trying to get wonders and Egypt doesn't get any extra culture before artifacts at the moment. Even though a massive part of Egypt revolves around building wonders, there are several civs with whom it's easier to build them, that being almost any civ that gets extra culture. It's sad that Egypt seemingly have a niche, but other civs fill that niche much better. I don't know if extra culture at late classical would make a big difference, but that would be something.

Fairly certain a buildings worth of culture in the late classical era wouldn't change anything, and it already sorta boosts wonders indirectly by giving you GAP. Still worth considering I guess.