Egypt / Ramesses

[CrazyG]

Does having 7 forest tiles really make this not a jungle start? Really?FYI all luxuries but one within my capital were covered by jungle at the start, and I won't be chopping very much so those forest tiles are the same as jungle tiles till they get their mills (which happened late because I rushed universities). That seems kind of petty guys, at this point in the game forest and jungle have functionally been completely identical anyways

Indeed, but I don't play with rerolls and both Petra and Desert Folklore are hit or miss. Such dream start (flood plains setting with incense and plenty of marble/mines nearby) makes Trade a low priority and even if you succeed you end with a great capital but quite crap expos. That's all theorycrafting obviously, but I wouldn't rate desert bias that high because of that.

In my experience (Immortal/Deity, random civs at normal speed on large* continents maps, even if latest patch is making me play more often Immortal) riverside grassland with good luxuries is a solid start for all opening trees, mostly due to the flexibility: can explore with a couple warriors and meet civs/clear camps quick (desert barbarians are nasty), your expos come quick and you're sort of guaranteed early access to strategic resources. It's not like I work empty grassland tiles anyway, it's the surroundings that matter.

Your screen shows a good start (standard/deity I assume?), mostly due to the available lux and lack of competition for quick expansion to the south, it just feels so wrong as Egypt sure chariots aren't in the making. Let us know how it goes, especially if Genghis goes rampage and your nearby CS turn red

I had to post the pic because it was funny to see someone suggest the start bias change the same day I got that start.

I really have to disagree with some assesments of that area, first of all Venice bought a city state I had 50 influence denying me precious faith so being his neighbor isn't that great. I have zero intentions to expand to that massive river basin because the terrain is completely flat, meaning very little production and very hard to defend. I can't afford to fight a front that large against the mongols (who annexed all three of those CS next to me). Especially because the Mongol AI likes to bribe people to war, if Venice attacked from the other side I would lose the cities. While Venice cannot settle it he likely still claims it and I don't want territorial disputes to strain that relationship. The only reason I have any chance in hell against those snowballing Mongols is because my early tiles had so many yields, letting me get 3 ancient era wonders. I'm well positioned to take a tech lead then liberate some cities and I already lead in culture.

Comparing a grassland river with good luxuries to a desert with river and good luxuries is biased towards grassland though. Desert start bias is implicitly also a river start bias, and also a mines start bias. Start biases aren't 100% by any means, but you are more likely to get strong luxuries and fresh water with desert than with grassland (you also almost never get cotton, which should make anyone who doesn't re-roll very happy). All that is to say I think we agree to disagree.

I do think its a good idea for Egypt to get some kind of bias that pushes it towards more open terrain for war chariots, doesn't have to be desert. Is there a list of current start biases anywhere so we can confirm what he currently has? I don't think the wiki is correct (I certainly hope Siam doesn't have avoid forest...)

 

[randomnub]

Siam indeed avoids forests :|

<!-- If a civ cannot avoid being placed in types it tries to avoid, the Avoid has to be ignored. -->
<Civilization_Start_Region_Avoid>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_JUNGLE</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_SIAM</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
[...]


As you can see vanilla Egypt already avoids those areas, just not very efficiently given how region priority works (the 'avoid' types are placed only after the 'settle there' ones, and often they run out of options so back to default).

 

[Funak]

For historical accuracy, I've even heard that Egypt was once forested and they ruined their forests with their construction efforts.

Pretty sure we went ahead and decided a while back, to not assign starting bias based on the civs actual real life locations. Only actual cultural reasons, balance reasons and some flavor.
For example Hiawatha still has forest bias, because his entire kit is based on it, but Sweden no longer have tundra bias, because there is nothing in the Swedish kit tied to actual tundra settling. Russia I'm not sure about, they used to not have tundra-bias, but it might have been reverted to give them more room to expand and more tiles to grab, which kinda benefits their kit. It's complicated.

The point is that the argument 'Egypt is located in the desert' isn't enough to qualify for Desert bias anymore. As with the exact same logic one could also claim River-bias and Ocean-bias for them. Yeah Ocean is a lot harder sell, but river for sure.

Siam indeed avoids forests :|

<!-- If a civ cannot avoid being placed in types it tries to avoid, the Avoid has to be ignored. -->
<Civilization_Start_Region_Avoid>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_JUNGLE</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_SIAM</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
[...]


As you can see vanilla Egypt already avoids those areas, just not very efficiently given how region priority works (the 'avoid' types are placed only after the 'settle there' ones, and often they run out of options so back to default).

Are those the actual mod-files? Because I've heard people whine about stuff like this before only to finally have G shut the whole thing down by explaining that they were reading the wrong files.

Btw, I find this really weird, you shouldn't be able to have multiple biases, so egypt shouldn't be able to avoid both forest and jungle.

 

[Gazebo]

Siam indeed avoids forests :|

<!-- If a civ cannot avoid being placed in types it tries to avoid, the Avoid has to be ignored. -->
<Civilization_Start_Region_Avoid>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_JUNGLE</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_EGYPT</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
<Row>
<CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_SIAM</CivilizationType>
<RegionType>REGION_FOREST</RegionType>
</Row>
[...]


As you can see vanilla Egypt already avoids those areas, just not very efficiently given how region priority works (the 'avoid' types are placed only after the 'settle there' ones, and often they run out of options so back to default).

The data is there, yep, but the 'avoid region' stuff isn't terribly useful, as it all depends on the order of placement.

G

 

[randomnub]

Yes I took those lines from vanilla C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\DLC\Expansion2\Gameplay\XML\Civilizations\CIV5Civilizations file, it explains how it works pretty well in the commented out lines.

Btw, I am getting mixed results modding the starting bias, and also noticed in the mod the sweden/russia tundra starting bias has been disabled, but in practice I find myself at the poles pretty often with those two civs still.

DELETE FROM Civilization_Start_Region_Priority
WHERE CivilizationType = 'CIVILIZATION_SWEDEN' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE_LEADERS' AND Value= 1 ); <- under ...\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Leaders\GodsKings

Are the changes relevant only to the Communitas type mapscript? I didn't play that yet because of funny outcomes. I wanted to check what sort of stuff a desert bias could net me and I probably got the funniest Nile river ever

 

[CrazyG]

Today I learned how start biases work. I had wondered about Sweden and tundra bias for a while

Are the changes relevant only to the Communitas type mapscript? I didn't play that yet because of funny outcomes. I wanted to check what sort of stuff a desert bias could net me and I probably got the funniest Nile river ever

Communitas is a really weird map script, it loves chaotic water formations. I've never seen a desert start with literally no desert, though getting a very small number is fairly common.

 

[Funak]

Today I learned how start biases work. I had wondered about Sweden and tundra bias for a while


Communitas is a really weird map script, it loves chaotic water formations. I've never seen a desert start with literally no desert, though getting a very small number is fairly common.

Sweden with tundra bias was pretty odd in the first place, Sweden isn't exactly located in the tundra, well some small part is, but that's like giving America tundra bias because of Alaska.


Yeah Communitas mapscript is really odd, it is usually really overdoing it with lakes, atolls and bonus-resources. It tends to form really massive rivers as well, even though that isn't very obvious from your screenshot. In general Communitas just seems to create maps with way better average tiles.

As for you getting tundra-starts with Sweden/Russia, that's probably observation/confirmation bias.

 

[Naxelas]

Keeping in mind the recent buffs to Egypt (burial tomb connection gold, goddess of beauty as a better option), is authority still seen as a viable alternative to tradition for the first policy tree? There is the argument to be made that having a large suite of captured cities to mill burial tombs and then sack is extremely rewarding in parallel with the other useful authority bonuses for the civ (plenty of hammers, better wide play for additional burial tombs), but the golden age and great person bonuses in tradition just seem too good to pass up with artistry as the go-to option in the next policy tier. What in your experience tends to be more successful?

 

[pineappledan]

Is there a reason why Burial Tombs drop the base 1 from Caravansaries, and give only +2 to land trade routes while Caravansaries give +3?

I know the Burial Tomb is strong enough as is, but these 2 nerfs seem minor enough to be considered pointless. It's a bit confusing.

Also, bug in recent versions. Burial tomb doesn't extend trade route distance.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Also, bug in recent versions. Burial tomb doesn't extend trade route distance.

Please put bugs in the GitHub. : )

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t know if it’s a bug though, or if it’s a design decision

Re the TR distance thing, I already made a pull request. The fix was merged last version

 

[ridjack]

I'm consistently seeing Egypt as #1 civ in all the games he's been in with me recently. Dunno if it's just a coincidence or something others are seeing, but thought I'd mention it in case.

 

[andersw]

I tested on emperor a desert start going spirit of desert, skipped warriors and went 5-6 warchariots -> council of elders, a lot of wonders were built this far

Spoiler :

 

[azum4roll]

I tested on emperor a desert start going spirit of desert, skipped warriors and went 5-6 warchariots -> council of elders, a lot of wonders were built this far

Spoiler :

View attachment 537607

The Japanese hates you for stealing their religion.

Are war chariots that much better after the skirmisher change?

 

[andersw]

The Japanese hates you for stealing their religion.

Are war chariots that much better after the skirmisher change?

He was chill, I just declared on the Japanese to reclaim MY desert that he had the stomach to spawn on, its an outrage!

They are useful for barbs and getting the hammer bonus on kill in capital. (I dont war much vs the AI with the really early units.)
Upgraded to skirmishers (or as warchariots) its hard to find good spots to use them effectively, probably takes a bit of practice to learn spot the correct positioning.
Mongols have it a bit better thanks to the +2 move on skirmishers.

 

[Stalker0]

They are useful for barbs and getting the hammer bonus on kill in capital.

Yeah to me Egypt and America are two sides of the same coin early game. America can use their border buying to get some key wonders. Egypt can do the same through early warring to snag production for their capital. The bonus is strong early and tends to taper off quickly, but it provides a great starting platform.

 

[lunker]

Egypt always first place in my games recently. Anyone else experience the same?

 

[Legen]

The Burial Tomb still gives +2 gold to trade routes instead of the base +3 gold of the caravansaries.

 

[Zoce]

Wonderwhoring became hard lately

 

[JamesNinelives]

Yeah Egypt was going super strong in one of my games recently, building wonders like there's no tomorrow. That said I played another game with Egypt in third place behind me and America. And in a third game they started out right at the top but couldn't defend their cities from the rising star that was China and feel to about the middle of the pack.

I've also yet to see them in action on the most recent beta so I am keen to find out if how they do on that .