Elegy of the Sheaim/Hallowing of the Elohim

[Imuratep]

Does anyone build these rituals? IMHO they are too expensive to have any effect, you really have to have an incredible production to make it worth the investment. Actually both civilizations are supposed to be able to influence the AC, but at 600 there are many better ways to do this. That's why there should be some way to make them cheaper.
Because we are in a phase of minor tweaks, I have come up with something easy to implement: +100% if you have a source of life mana for Hallowing of the Elohim (which the Elohim don't possess right now, so you would have to research Divination or have to control an world improvement like Tomb of Sucellus to get the bonus) and +100% if you have a source of entropy mana for Elegy of the Sheaim (which the Sheiam also don't possess right now, so you would have to research Necromancy or you would have to control an fitting world improvement - which unfortunately doesn't exist right now).

 

[loocas]

I suggest no change. They are very boring ways of changing the AC and they should be kept as secondary.

If you're trying to raise the AC, Elegy is a useful alternative, although less efficient, if there aren't any good cities to raze or if you'd rather spread AV to as many cities as possible for Stigmata's bonus.

Razing evil cities isn't counterproductive like I've described above, so I think Hallowing's cost should stay the same. The scales should be tipped in favor of raising the AC, if anything.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Actually, the Sheaim one is about right. It's a fair bit of cost, but a decent empire can likely build them in about 20 turns, in multiple cities. If you really want to get your portals going, it's a decent thing to do. And yeah, if you really want armageddon for some reason, it isn't THAT slow.

 

[Kenjister]

I think they are balanced as is. I just had an Elohim game where I was desperately fighting to keep the counter down below 90. I actually built the ritual about 7 times the entire game and it certainly helped. It didn't bring it down too much, but the ability to build it in multiple cities simultaneously certainly offset the production cost.

The high production cost actually makes for some more fun. It's like, I have to hold off the rising AC for 20 turns, then I'll be safe. (In my case it was AC 90) So for 20 turns I make some really desperate attacks on multiple AV cities, some succeded, and the suspense was amazing! I did manage to keep the counter down for the time, and it was one of the most rewarding things I did in a while. In the end I was only 3 real points away from hitting 90. 89% is a scary number to look at on that counter.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Well, I say that the ways of effecting AC are favoring the AC to rise. So, if someone researches AV, he can just spread the religion, even in good lands and get the +1 to AC for city has AV even if other religions are present. In addition, inquisition removes all non state religions from a city. This means that if you have a city with Order, empyrean, Fol,RoK,AV and you only want to remove AV is impossible!!
So, how are you supposed to reduce the AC? Razing AV cities? But these cities may belong, and is usually the case, to civs that do not have AV as state religion, but AV is just spread there...
And we should not forget "Prophesy of ragnarok". Units built there increase the AC. There is no counter-wonder with units built there to reduce AC. At least not one that I know of...
After presenting the arguments, I say that Shaeim do not really need to be made any easier to raise the AC, but Elohim should definately be given more ways to reduce it. The easiest one could be to reduce the cost for the Hallowing, although I would prefer something else. Even the ability to be able to inqusit AV only, from a city would be good enough for me.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

You are forgetting that you can build it in multiple cities. It's not fast, but if you build it in all your major production cities, you can easily shoot it straight into Armageddon. Then you adopt the Council of Esus, launch your worldspell at 100% damage and wipe out 3 civs in a single turn.

 

[loocas]

And we should not forget "Prophesy of ragnarok". Units built there increase the AC. There is no counter-wonder with units built there to reduce AC. At least not one that I know of...

Killing those units lowers it.

 

[Imuratep]

As I said all other ways to increase the AC are much more efficient. (With Hallowing you are probably right as there are only a few ways to decrease the AC.) With the I use for Elegy of the Sheaim I could build quite an army to raze more cities or just to have it with Prophecy of Ragnarök (for 600 I can build 5 ritualists with which I can lead war very efficiently AND I raise the AC by 5, whilst with Elegy you get nothing but raising the AC, or you build 10 savants with which you spread AV to 10 more cities to raise it by 10 permanently)
I'm not fixed to my idea, I just chose it because it was easy to do (just copy and paste:
<BonusProductionModifier>
<BonusType>BONUS_MANA_ENTROPY</BonusType>
<iProductonModifier>100</iProductonModifier>
</BonusProductionModifier>
in the CIVProjectInfo and you're done). So if someone knows a better or more elegant way to decrease the costs for this ritual I have no problem with it.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Killing those units lowers it.

I think my point was not taken.
Of course I know that killing those units lower the AC, but you first have to able to reach them. And this means war(which, by the way, raises the AC). On the other hand, the building civ does not need to declare war to raise the AC. It is just building units.

So, where are the units that passively decreases it and someone has to kill to increase the AC?
And please, do consider the rest of my aruments, do not just stick to this one.

 

[WarKirby]

I don't think 600 is all that bad. Although you get the ability to build these things quite early, it's generally only about lte game that the AC really becomes important. And if you site your cities well, it's not too difficult to have a multi-hill megacity that can churn out >100 per turn, which makes it a fairly quick thing to make.

And these are rituals, right? So build the celestial compass, and it goes faster.

 

[Imuratep]

I don't thihnk 600 is all that bad. Although you get the abiloity to build these things quite early, it's generally only about lte game that the AC really becomes important. And if you site your cities well, it's not too difficult to have a multi-hill megacity that can churn out >100 per turn, which makes it a faitly quick thing to make.

And these are rituals, right? So build the celestial compass, and it goes faster.

The question is: What do you consider as late game? And why should it be late game only? IMHO the main game without accelerated Armageddon (which IMHO also isn't the perfect solution) doesn't increase the AC fast enough. I had very many games that I won where the AC was at about 10 just because noone researched AV. The Sheaim are all about the AC and in games with them the AC should raise very quickly.

 

[WarKirby]

Well, I'd consider it at least about the time you start getting champions. That's probably when I'd give serious thought to building them. By then you should have sanitation too, allowing for much greater city growth.

Blasting powder is also a great industrial turning point, since it gives all your mines +1

Also, worth noting. In the one and only game that I've ever reached AC 100, I was playing as a good civ (kurio) and AV was never even founded.

I was playing with Last Days on, though. You should try enabling that option if you want the AC to go up fast. it REALLY does.

I do think the +/- AC from building unique Order/AV units should be a lot higher, though.

 

[Imuratep]

I have very often played Last Days. If you have enabled this option you don't need the Ritual at all, because the AC raises without any effort to the dimensions you want. I am talking about a FFH game without any options enabled. I want the ritual to be useful the time you get it, not hundreds of turns later. Sanitation anyway is a no brainer for the Sheaim as there you get Succubi, get a food boost for StW that you need if you want to rush Planar Gates everywhere. If it was a tech like Sanitation or Iron working that enabled the production you need (perhaps if the FFH team really makes Workshops better), I would say nothing, but Blasting Powder IMHO is no reason to say something is well costed as you need Iron working and engineering to be able to research it and it costs about 8000 . Combine this with the fact that Celestial Compass is the most efficient way to accelerate it. Then you will see that you have invested very much research time to make one single ritual buildable, that does something that you could have reached much easier by building units or by one single wonder that noone else is interested in or simply by spreading your religion.

 

[zup]

Hyborem loves PoR.

 

[Bitwise]

I can almost never beat the Lanun to the Celestial Compass, and they don't even get any use out of it.

 

[megamanx06]

can they be built more than once? if not, i don't think 5 is a big enough number to make much of a difference.

 

[Kenjister]

yeah, they can be built multiple times, and simultaneously if needed. The Hallowing can work wonders at keeping away that next big number.

 

[thadian]

in my second ever FFH game as the elohim - i was forced to build them en-mass. i had 4 cities building ONLY those. if i didn't, the world woulda been hell. there were 4 evil, one neutral (who went evil??) and - me.

Edit: i think certain evil AI should prioritize building the opposite (the evil one) in their prod cities to get that geddon counter up.