The worst part of a good game is Embarkment . Yes it was kind of clunky loading all your units onto a Transport in Civ 4 but bring that back PLEASE . I have no fear of my CPU opponets doing a Normandy invasion of my beaches or a Pearl Harbor sneak attack by amphibous power . The CPU does not embark and invade . And if they did . Since you can t stack your Naval Units . I would eat them up like pac man on the high seas before they went to war with me I would just pre -empt and attack them . Crazy
Embarkment messes this game up
- Thread starter Cedbird
- Start date
I 100% agree with you.
In one game I had to abandon an invasion, because a lost barb carvel hovered over some of my transporters.
Since then I've changed the code so all my transporters have a defense value.
I only have to think of a new ability for the Songhai.
Another annoyance besides losing movement points, transporters embark when passing through cities.
(Maybe this has been fixed.)
In one game I had to abandon an invasion, because a lost barb carvel hovered over some of my transporters.
Since then I've changed the code so all my transporters have a defense value.
I only have to think of a new ability for the Songhai.
Another annoyance besides losing movement points, transporters embark when passing through cities.
(Maybe this has been fixed.)
The idea behind it would've been to make naval supremacy more important; if you don't clear the way for your troops first, then you're screwed. That the AI can't handle it is really more of an AI problem that a problem with the idea of the feature itself.
With modern naval units moving so fast you can't sweep an area, especially an enemy coast, and presumably have to use formations in defence. First of all this is utterly tedious to move. Secondly, although a human opponent can build clever formations I expect a human opponent can break those formations cleverly too.
Kyroshill
Huh?
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2008
- Messages
- 642
At least with embarkation, the AI tries....
It's not like the AI did any better with transports.... it took them until the modern day to actually construct a force for naval invasion.... then they would dump all their siege units first... after you'd mop them up... then they would use amphibious attacks suiciding their entire force against the city's walls....
In ciV I've seen some pretty formidable AI navies.... and they happily embark their units anytime.... now the challenge is to get them to send them to enemy territory....
Of course... leading an effective naval assault and landing on fortified beaches requires a high level of thought processes that are never going to be in a $50 video game
It's not like the AI did any better with transports.... it took them until the modern day to actually construct a force for naval invasion.... then they would dump all their siege units first... after you'd mop them up... then they would use amphibious attacks suiciding their entire force against the city's walls....
In ciV I've seen some pretty formidable AI navies.... and they happily embark their units anytime.... now the challenge is to get them to send them to enemy territory....
Of course... leading an effective naval assault and landing on fortified beaches requires a high level of thought processes that are never going to be in a $50 video game
I think the tedium is more a product of 1upt than embarkation. And I expect a human opponent could break formations, too. Well done for them for playing a smart naval game. That's simply the risk you run. And an enemy naval unit that uses up turns taking out land units will be more of a vulnerable sitting duck, which helps eliminate the opposition navy, which makes the path safer.
I haven't played a game long enough to get to where the AI tries to embark a lot of units to attack me, but I would think that the issue is a replication of the 1UPT elements that the AI can't handle.
In theory, embarkation is useful, I think. I thought transport units were kind of goofy. I mean, you could always make certain units only able to, for example, travel in coastal waters, or make certain techs required to extend the range of units, rather than require a whole separate unit whose only purpose is to carry other units. But again, the problem here lies with how 1UPT plays out on the high seas (which sounds like it's about as successful as how it plays out on land...).
It's a tough balancing game.
I've seen some stupid AI embarkations. Like, playing a OCC with a one tile pass at one side, the AI there declares war on me. What does he do? Sends one infantry to get picked off by my artillery. Continues sending one unit at a time. He gets tired of that. What does he do? Starts sending embarked units, one at a time, to try to go around me. Well, geez, sounds great, except my destroyer there is pretty good at picking off unaccompanied units. And if not, my city and artillery from the land are pretty good at bombarding. It's true, he did get a couple through, but when you're talking a 2HP unit, my infantry back are pretty good at picking them off.
They try to use it too much. And I still think it would have been better in the game had embarked units been like civilian ones, so you can stack destroyers on top of them to escort them. But overall, I do in some sense like the idea. In theory, it will be easier for the AI, since they don't have to worry about getting the exact mix of boats correct. It will take some work and some refining - honestly, I don't expect much from this iteration, not because of the issues that everyone thinks, but just because it will take time to figure out the algorithms. But in the long run, it will make sense for the series.
I've seen some stupid AI embarkations. Like, playing a OCC with a one tile pass at one side, the AI there declares war on me. What does he do? Sends one infantry to get picked off by my artillery. Continues sending one unit at a time. He gets tired of that. What does he do? Starts sending embarked units, one at a time, to try to go around me. Well, geez, sounds great, except my destroyer there is pretty good at picking off unaccompanied units. And if not, my city and artillery from the land are pretty good at bombarding. It's true, he did get a couple through, but when you're talking a 2HP unit, my infantry back are pretty good at picking them off.
They try to use it too much. And I still think it would have been better in the game had embarked units been like civilian ones, so you can stack destroyers on top of them to escort them. But overall, I do in some sense like the idea. In theory, it will be easier for the AI, since they don't have to worry about getting the exact mix of boats correct. It will take some work and some refining - honestly, I don't expect much from this iteration, not because of the issues that everyone thinks, but just because it will take time to figure out the algorithms. But in the long run, it will make sense for the series.
TM Moot
King
I like embarkation, but as with most new features in ciV it needs refining...
for example, moving a large invasion force is a total pain, especially if you have to skirt an island or CS en route..!!
perhaps transports could make a return, allowing these units to stack multiple land units, depending upon era and type?!?
for example, moving a large invasion force is a total pain, especially if you have to skirt an island or CS en route..!!
perhaps transports could make a return, allowing these units to stack multiple land units, depending upon era and type?!?
The feature is good. Personally though I think all embarked units should be capable of defending themselves. This way they're still vulnerable to naval fire, but it's not just lol u got run over.
As has been said, the real problem is that the AI has no idea how to use it, along with navies and the 1UPT system in general.
As has been said, the real problem is that the AI has no idea how to use it, along with navies and the 1UPT system in general.
Embarkation doesn't make any sense.
As others have stated, embarked units are easy prey. So, you have to be sure that the respective sea/ocean will not contain enemy warships.
Given the speed of ships, ensuring this is almost impossible. Even the human player would face quite some difficulties in ensuring this (assumed: a halfway capable AI).
For the AI, the problem is much bigger and would require much more sophisticated algorithms than currently implemented.
It would require some understanding of the "war theatre", which the AI absolutely is unable to understand.
Now, people are saying: let's give the embarked units some defense.
This is (a) counter-intuitive, as the embarked units are assumed to make use of some kind of rafts (early ages) or at least much inferior "ships". And those shall be able to resist warships of their respective time? C'mon.
In the worst case, self-defending embarked units could even be used to "block" enemy harbors, which would make the whole system completely insane.
Yes, it is "nice and easy" to magically have ships "at hand".
No, it does not work, unless the AI will be improved by a degree of which we even don't dare to think of.
Embarkation is another example of how the developers were implementing features which are looking nice and pretty on paper, but completely fail in the game's reality.
As others have stated, embarked units are easy prey. So, you have to be sure that the respective sea/ocean will not contain enemy warships.
Given the speed of ships, ensuring this is almost impossible. Even the human player would face quite some difficulties in ensuring this (assumed: a halfway capable AI).
For the AI, the problem is much bigger and would require much more sophisticated algorithms than currently implemented.
It would require some understanding of the "war theatre", which the AI absolutely is unable to understand.
Now, people are saying: let's give the embarked units some defense.
This is (a) counter-intuitive, as the embarked units are assumed to make use of some kind of rafts (early ages) or at least much inferior "ships". And those shall be able to resist warships of their respective time? C'mon.
In the worst case, self-defending embarked units could even be used to "block" enemy harbors, which would make the whole system completely insane.
Yes, it is "nice and easy" to magically have ships "at hand".
No, it does not work, unless the AI will be improved by a degree of which we even don't dare to think of.
Embarkation is another example of how the developers were implementing features which are looking nice and pretty on paper, but completely fail in the game's reality.
Ktulu
Warlord
The range/speed of ships issue could easily be solved by adding a zone of control system. Example: if you move within 2 hexes of an escort you cannot move past the escort without engaging in battle. This would simplify naval defense for the ai.
I think the introduction of automatic embarkment in the CiV is one of the best changes in the game. The above process of a) producing transports, b) taking the transports to the place where the units are (or taking the units to the transports), c) loading the units, d) moving the units transported to the place of landing, e ) unloading the units, and f) move / attack, was too boring and required too much micro-management.
However, although this is an improvement in terms of gameplay, I think that AI is not using it correctly, so it's necessary to improve it.
However, although this is an improvement in terms of gameplay, I think that AI is not using it correctly, so it's necessary to improve it.
I think, you are completely missing the point. "You" may be able to protect the defenseless units. The AI won't.
Embarking attracts the AI to send their units into the range of the human player's navy. Zones of control won't help, as the AI does not protect their units, neither with nor without such zones.
In the context of the game's different sub-systems, embarkment does not work.
Yes, this is sad news.
And yes, this is just the truth.
You're saying it's intuitive for a trireme to instantly sink a fleet of galleys carrying fighting men on them, just because the trireme's a warship? Because that doesn't make sense to me. Can the trireme harass the hell out of them? Absolutely. Will it do some damage? Absolutely. Will at least some of the fighting force make it to a nearby shore?
Absolutely.
That's all I'm saying. The embarked unit(s) is naturally going to take a lot of damage coming ashore if naval superiority isn't established, but that doesn't mean a single warship should be able to run them over like some kind of tactical Frogger.
As for blocking enemy harbors, if you have enough land units to effectively do that, you probably have enough land units to just take the city. Also, if you have naval superiority to the point that you feel safe with land units sitting on water tiles, you could probably just blockade with your warships. Maybe it's an immersion issue, but I don't care about that right now. I just want the game to work, dunno about you.
This is an AI problem more than a design problem. At least, in regard to this one aspect of the game.
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