Embassy to Team Sirius

[nabaxo]

Nabaxo can you PM them that they have Gmail from us?

Done!

 

[nabaxo]

Got a PM from Sirius confirming that they got our message, though there's nothing in our email inbox yet.

 

[2metraninja]

Good, now they have to chew and digest it first

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sirius sent us gmail, basically saying they were giving us Sci Meth but don't give it to Q. I didn't have time to post it. Can someone else post it please, both letters, the original and edited one so we can compare them.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Since apparently nobody had time to post it I am posting this now:

Dear Amazonian Friends,

Yes, that's why when in unforeseen situations(where both members of the ETTT would be in war against each other.) that we decided to hold the techs before discussing the problem with you. Is it so hard to have concerns about our enemy getting a tech that we researched ourselves through another civ? Be assured that it isn't our intent to keep you out of techs we researched but to talk to you first.
So, what do we do now? We don't mind abiding to the ASP at all but we definitely won't give away our techs to Quatronia.

No, we couldn't have shared our plans for Q in the last letter because we didn't had any at the time but the embargo and the spy ideas.

We can say now that the only ones that have land oil tiles are we, you and CDZ(Only in Anjennida, Cigar(SE spoke) and Comet). There's a ocean oil tile in each island, but as well as you know civs will need to go for Plastics to get it. Q without any oil based units is a sitting duck. We might go through this path, but we're still discussing what to do.
We do give you Scientific Method(Q is researching it right now and due in four turns, so we apreciate if you can delay it to them) as Q can't access it before they research Plastics and we ask you not to give Q any oil. We're also supplying CDZ with it and asking them to not supply Q with oil.

This whole mess started by our rush and forgetting the diplomatic binds as we pointed out in our 12th May letter and we've been thinking on how to keep still abiding to the documents we signed. As our main ally in the game, we definitely await your kind words of wisdom.

I've noticed a request for Scientific Method this turn. We stand by the words we wrote before; We do want to share technology with you, but not with Q. Don't ask us again until we(Sirius and Amazons) find a way to prevent Q from have access to techs developed by Sirius.

Alltriia, on behalf of Team Sirius.


Regards,
Team Sirius

2nd Draft they sent us

Sorry, that was an old draft. My appolagies.
This is the updated version:


Dear Amazonian Friends,

Yes, that's why when in unforeseen situations(where both members of the ETTT would be in war against each other.) that we decided to hold the techs before discussing the problem with you. Is it so hard to have concerns about our enemy getting a tech that we researched ourselves through another civ? Be assured that it isn't our intent to keep you out of techs we researched but to talk to you first.
So, what do we do now? We don't mind abiding to the ASP at all but we definitely won't give away our techs to Quatronia.

No, we couldn't have shared our plans for Q in the last letter because we didn't had any at the time but the embargo and the spy ideas.

We can say now that the only ones that have land oil tiles are we, you and CDZ(Only in Anjennida, Cigar(SE spoke) and Comet). There's a ocean oil tile in each island, but as well as you know civs will need to go for Plastics to get it. Q without any oil based units is a sitting duck. We might go through this path, but we're still discussing what to do.

We do give you Scientific Method(Q is researching it right now and due in three turns, so we apreciate if you can delay it to them) as Q can't access it before they research Plastics and we ask you not to give Q any oil. We asked CDZ to exchange SciMeth and MiliSci for their Combustion and asking them to not supply Q with oil.


This whole mess started by our rush and forgetting the diplomatic binds as we pointed out in our 12th May letter and we've been thinking on how to keep still abiding to the documents we signed. As our main ally in the game, we definitely await your kind words of wisdom.

I've noticed a request for Scientific Method this turn. We stand by the words we wrote before; We do want to share technology with you, but not with Q.


Alltriia, on behalf of Team Sirius.

 

[2metraninja]

So, the ETTT is officially dead. Now one member denies tech to another and offers techs for another's tech.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think ETTT may still have life. It seems CDZ and Q still wish to participate. Only Sirius seeks to leave it. Maybe we should suggest they ask to be voted out.

 

[2metraninja]

It seems CDZ and Q still wish to participate. Only Sirius seeks to leave it. Maybe we should suggest they ask to be voted out.

Those might be the "words of wisdom" Sirius are waiting from us and a good way to take the undisputed lead of the ETTT. 3 vs 1 in its purest form.

 

[Sommerswerd]

OK so like we discussed, I will send them a letter now saying we are getting SoL and reminding them we are still in ETTT and SAP. SAP does not end automatically in 1500 AD. It must be officially canceled. So until they tell us they are canceling it they still have to give us tech. I think our best bet is to continue to respect our treaties with everyone and let Sirius be the ones to dump treaties if that is how they want to behave:

Greetings Sirian Allies,

We have destroyed the evil Merlot, as you are probably aware, and we are redeploying our troops to our territories all over the world. So you will notice a lot of activity as our troops move around to their destinations. As the Sirius military is mighty, we trust you will not be alarmed, but we thought it best to give you some advance notice. Also, our apologies for not mentioning this earlier, but we started construction of the Parthenon and the Statue of Liberty around the same time, some turns back. Unfortunately, we were not able to finish Parthenon, as it was made obsolete by Scientific Method, but we are still working on the Statue of Liberty.

Finally, after much deliberation, we have decided that we just can not agree to engage in blatant treaty breaking towards any of our ETTT allies. We will continue to honor the ETTT and the SAP and all our agreements under their terms until the agreements are ended under their terms.

The ETTT obligates us to give tech to Q, and we intend to honor our agreements. As we said, we understand that this will cause some discomfort for Sirius, which is why we asked you to stop teching, so that you would not have to worry about trying to deny tech to an ETTT ally and all the trouble and discomfort that would cause. You asked us for our advice on how to handle this situation and we have some ideas. One idea would be to just stop teching as we suggested to you before.

Another idea would be to cancel the SAP, as the mandatory period has ended, and then relieved of your SAP obligation to remain in the ETTT, you could announce your unilateral withdrawal from the ETTT. As we have said before, our interpretation of the ETTT is that it does not allow unilateral withdrawal, and that unilateral withdrawal is a violation of the treaty, but you have said that you do not agree with this interpretation.

A third idea would be to cancel the SAP and then separately request that the ETTT partners vote Sirius out and then each could approach Sirius for new tech trading/sharing arrangements. We understand that you have gone to great lengths to achieve a powerful tech rate, and it is natural that you are eager to start reaping the sole benefits of it. However, it must be equally obvious to you, that we would not agree to removing the 7.3 term from the SAP or entering into a tech trading rather than sharing agreement, as this would be against our interest. So that is why we suggest that if you desperately wish to be free of the tech sharing obligations of the SAP then you should consider canceling it.

We completely understand your concerns regarding the tech and resource situation. You intend to invade Q at some point, so you obviously don't want them to get techs or resources that will make their military, economy etc., better, because it will make it harder for you to invade. This makes perfectly good sense to us.

Now please try understand our concerns as well. We preferred to avoid the awkward, diplomatically impossible situation where two members of the ETTT would be at war against each other, precisely to avoid a conflict of interest like the one we are going through now. It was so confusing when you invaded Q before we finished off Merlot. Why is this happening we wondered? Some on our team worried that Sirius was trying to rush and get to Q and take all Q's land before anyone else could.

We can certainly appreciate the strategic value of such a maneuver, taking Q's land while AMAZON was occupied with Merlot. We admire your cunning and initiative. But you must understand that this was a very difficult problem for us. On the one hand you are asking us to embargo Q and break our treaties to deny them tech, but the reason you are asking us to do this seems at least partly so that you can rush and take all Q's land for yourselves. Obviously you can see that we would not want to let that happen, it would just be foolish strategically for us to allow that.

You ask us to join in an embargo against Q, but you have not explained towards what end? Please try to appreciate this from our perspective. Q has remained unwaveringly faithful to the ETTT. In fact, when Sirius has denied us tech, like Military Science, Q has faithfully provided it. Now you warn us not to ask you for any more tech and at the same time you ask us to break our treaty and join you in an embargo against Q. This is a very uncomfortable position for us, not to mention that you have not explained what your plan is for moving against Q.

Are we to make an embargo against Q and break treaties to deny them tech indefinitely, while Sirius picks and chooses when they want to share tech with us? It is one thing to say “Embargo Q, and we will invade and destroy them in 10 turns” and quite another to say “Embargo Q until Sirius gets so far ahead that you can no longer be competitive.” Are we supposed to have to trade with Sirius, beaker for beaker and deny ourselves a trading partner in Q, falling behind in tech, all so Sirius can overwhelm Q and take all of Q’s land for themselves?

More to the point, Until we know exactly what Sirius plan is for Q, when you will invade, how long it will take to overcome them, what role you expect us to play, what we stand to gain (cities land resources, money, tech, etc), it is unreasonable for you to expect us to give our full support to a Sirius invasion of Q. We would like very much to avoid the tense haphazard, grab-and-go-get situation that happened on Comet. Right now, at best we are disinterested observers, continuing to trade with Q and Sirius, maintaining the status quo of loosely confederated allies, but understand that at this point you have not done much to show us why helping Sirius to invade Q helps The AMAZON.

We hope this has made our feelings clearer and explained our behavior so far. We look forward to hearing from our Sirian friends.

nabaxo, special Envoy to Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

Right now, at best we are disinterested observers, continuing to trade with Q and Sirius, maintaining the status quo of loosely confederated allies, but understand that at this point you have not done much to show us why helping Sirius to invade Q helps The AMAZON.

Brilliant, Captain, just brilliant!!!

 

[Sommerswerd]

Just got this PM from Sirius. Basically, they are trying to guilt trip us about how much tech they contribued to ETTT. Also, they are still not telling us any of their plans for Q, just again asking for our thoughts.

One thing is clear, they want to end the ETTT right away, or at least get out of it themselves and start doing equal beaker-for-beaker trading. My guess is that they are wanting it to end fully rather than just leave it themselves. Obviously this is to no ones advantage but theirs, which is typical of them to only look for their own advantage.

Hi Sommerswerd,
i can't log in gmail at present, so i use this.
ciao

Dear Amazon friends,
we received and carefully read your last message. Before to discuss any further point we (Sirius) need to deepen our discussion, but for now we'd like to share this thought with you: there's no point in keeping an alliance comprising all the surviving teams. Only one will win this competition and we'll do our best to be that one.
We gave to the ETTT all our research potential, sacrificing other aspects of the game.
I think i can affirm that we gave the same amount of beakers You, CDZ and Quatronia together gave to us. Still, we don't regret anything, but we think the time for this alliance is arrived to his end with the elimination of the "Candy Axis".
We'd like to keep good relations with you and CDZ and possibly have fair trades.
We assure you that we'll give you the last tech we researched while being in the ETTT.
May i say now: anyone for himself and God for all?

Two more things.
- All the Victory Conditions are enabled, thus the military way is just one of the options.

- Our NAP is just expired and we're in the 10 turns of non aggression. I think we can propose to you a new NAP, with a revision of some terms.

We (Sirius) need to read carefully the NAP just expired and to re-think a new one. But, before we do this, we'd like to know your thoughts about it.

More will follow shortly, just the time to better discuss with the team.

Blubmuz, on behalf of Team Sirius

One thing that needs to be cleared up is the mistakes Blubmuz is amking about the treaty. First, Our NAP did not expire it is still in effect until they announce that they are canceling the treaty. There is no 10 turns of non-aggression... this only applies when there are no non-member teams left. So for us to have a automatic 10 turn grace period, CDZ and Q would also have to be gone, with the SAP still in effect.

Anyway, we need to make it clear to them that if they want to leave the SAP and ETTT, this line by Blubmz, "anyone for himself and God for all" is not going to cut it. They need to clearly tell all ETTT allies that they are unilaterally leaving the ETTT and/or clearly state to us that they are cancelling the SAP, then let us decide each one what we want to do... continue or stay together? I think putting it that way... letting them know they cant be wishy-washy, they must state their intentions clearly is a good way to keep them bound to the treaty, as they are cautious to leave an intact ETTT or cancel our treaty outright. All of this benefits us. I willsend a response along these lines.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sent this to Sirius, basically repeating what we already told them. They must stay in the ETTT unless they want to break the treaty, or cancel their alliance with us... I mean honestly, how can they expect us to want to remain allies with them if they aren't going to share tech?

I also countered their guilt tripping with some guilt tripping of our own over all the espionage we have been doing to help them

Dear Sirian Allies,

We recieved a note from your General, Blubmuz. The first and most important thing we need to clear up is the mistaken impressions he had on the terms of our SAP treaty. General Blubmuz made mention of a 10 turn NAP between us that took effect when the SAP expired. There are slight misconceptions with this. Number one, the SAP treaty has not expired.

Section 2. Pact Duration and Cancellation Terms

2.1. The pact continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

Since neither of us has told the other that we are canceling the treaty, the SAP treaty along with all duties and obligations, is still in effect. We say this first because we want our Sirian friends to be aware of this if it had been overlooked. If only General Blubmuz overlooked this, then there is no reason for us to be alarmed. What we think General Blubmuz may have been talking about, is this

2.2. The pact cannot be canceled until 1500AD.

Of course now that 1500 AD has come, the pact is subject to cancelation, before then it could not be canceled by either of us.

However neither of us has canceled the SAP. So if our Sirian friends wish to cancel the SAP, they must do so clearly, not with some unclear statment like "May i say now: anyone for himself and God for all?" We have no idea what this means. Is this a statement or a question? And what treaty does this refer to? SAP or ETTT? Please give us a clear statement of cancelation or a clear offer of amendment, or we can just continue to abide by the SAP as-is. And remeber please, the SAP is still fully in effect.

The second misinterpretation that must be urgently cleared up is the mistake about there being a 10 turn NAP between us. There is no such 10 turn NAP between us. The SAP is an indefinite NAP (see section 3.1 in combination with section 2.1 above).

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.1. Both members agree not to attack each other at any time while this pact is in effect.

What we think General Blubmuz may be referring to is the amendment that Sirius suggested but we rejected, which would have added a 10 turn NAP to the end of the 1500 AD non-cancelation clause. As I said, this term was never accepted by AMAZON, and is not part of the treaty.

Another term General Blubmuz might be talking about, is this, actually a combination of 2 terms

Section 2. Pact Duration and Cancellation Terms

2.3. The pact will be canceled if at any time there are no non-member teams left in the game.

and

Section 3. Non Aggression

3.4. If the pact is canceled because there are no non-member teams left in the game (Section 2.3) a Non-Aggression Pact will go into effect that will last for 10 turns after the last non-member team is eliminated.

So as you can see, an automatic 10 turn NAP between us would only come into effect if Q and CDZ were both elimminated in addition to M&M. So there is no current 10 turn NAP between us. We are bound by the SAP's indefinite NAP only.

Since we cleared up those mistakes about the SAP, now we turn to the issue that weighs most heavily on the mind of our Sirian friends, ie ending the ETTT so that they can take their well deserved place as world tech leader. As you know well, The AMAZON's interpretation of the ETTT is that the two ways to exit the ETTT according to the terms of the treaty are:

Section 2. Addition and Subtraction of Members

2.2. A member may be removed by unanimous consent of all other current members.

and:

Section 3. Treaty Duration and Cancellation Terms

3.1. The treaty continues indefinitely until it is canceled.

3.2. The treaty can be canceled at any time by the mutual agreement of all members.

So to leave the ETTT, within the terms of the treaty, Sirius must convince all the members of the ETTT to voluntarily dissolve the ETTT, or Sirius must get all other members to vote Sirius out. Of course AMAZON can not vote Sirius out because of section 7.4 of the still-in-effect SAP treaty, which states:

Section 7. Mutual Technological Advancement

7.4. Neither member will vote for the other to be removed from the ETTT.

The AMAZON recognizes that this term could be amended out of the treaty by mutual consent of Sirius and The AMAZON, but as we said in our previous message, we can see no benefit to AMAZON in doing so, as we favor the protection that section 7.4 gives. We further remind our Sirian friends that the SAP is still in effect, and section 7.3 of the SAP states:

Section 7. Mutual Technological Advancement 7.3. Both members agree to the terms of the Exclusive Tech-Trading Treaty (ETTT) and agree to remain members while both The ASP and The ETTT are in effect.

Again, it is not in AMAZON's interest as far as we can see, to amend out this term, as it protects us. So in short, Sirius must first cancel the SAP if they wish to cancel the ETTT. Once the SAP is canceled, Sirius could then ask the members of the ETTT to dissolve the ETTT or to vote Sirius out. This is our interpretation of the only way for Sirius to remove the ETTT obligations.

As a final thought, we appreciate Sirius focus and efforts to excel in technological advancement and we thank you for your continued technological contributions to the ETTT. We would also like to mention our humble militatry efforts which did much to destroy the entire combined-offensive armies of Mavs and Merlot in a series of pitched battles near Nabaxica. Hopefully the alliance enjoyed some increased measure of security due to these efforts. We also would like to mention, while contributions are being mentioned, that our espionage efforts against Merlot stalled M&M's tech in the Medeival ages, and also stalled their troop production capabilities. This in addition to our technological advantage, was what allowed the recent cake-walk victories over their defensive armies to take place, increasing the land and security the allies at our considerable expense, and at the expense of our many other goals.

We look forward to hearing from our Sirian friends, as always.

nabaxo, special Envoy to Sirius

 

[2metraninja]

Those guys will be confused at first and then mad at us. And all this for nothing. The clauses are clauses and they are here for a good reason. Maybe the current generation of Sirians are not those, who signed the treaties, so this will give them some food for thoughts, but it does not change anything.

You put it well, Captain.

 

[nabaxo]

Wow, that's an amazing feat of lawyering right there captain. You planned this all along when you wrote those treaties, didn't you?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Wow, that's an amazing feat of lawyering right there captain. You planned this all along when you wrote those treaties, didn't you?

that is my trade, but Silent Confusion did alot of the writing in the original treaties so he deserves the credit. But yes, the idea was to protect us by creating a treaty that Sirus would basically have to declare war on us to abandon, so then that way there would be no question where we stood. We knew that as a non FIN civ, we would need protection when it came to teching.

Still out of town without much net access. Noticed another PM from Blubmuz:

Hi Sommerswerd,
again in PM, no way we can have gmail working.

Dear Amazon friends,
our treaties were signed long time ago and i made the mistake to not read them recently.
Thus my last message, since the all (few) active members of Sirius forgot its actual content.
Please give us the time to read them carefully and to discuss a proposal for a better way to work with you.
Our main concern about the 4 members ETTT is that, as i said in my previous message only one of us will win, so we can't see any reason to keep all the surviving teams in tech parity.

Another problem.
We're aware of your thoughts about the ETTT and consequent tech trades, but give oil to Quatronia does not sound well for us. For what i remember, there're no bounds in any treaty to give strategic resources to another member.

More will follow in next days.
Blubmuz, on behalf of Team Sirius

So they are confused about what to do, and thinking things over... Good, this is perfect for us because they either have to keep giving us tech or stop teching. Status-Quo, Ho!

 

[2metraninja]

As we suspected, they are mad at us giving Q Oil. Lets hope CavScout used his destroyers well.

 

[Caledorn]

This is not much of a contribution, but more of an inquiry since I'm not up to speed on the current military situation of Sirius, Quattronia and ourselves. I reviewed the screenshots, but was hard to tell based on them, other than the fact that I vaguely have the feeling that Sirius is stronger militarywise than we are.

What are the odds of us - provided we are in an alliance with Q - actually defeating the Sirians?

My observations so far: At the current state of the game, CDZ doesn't offer much of a enemy since their turnplayer is even missing - that may change though, but they have still lost a few turns now. At this point it seems as if winning the game stands between either us or Sirius - and Sirius of course knows this as well as we do, which is probably why they are attacking Q to gain the upper hand in a conflict with us after that. I understand that breaking treaties is not an option whatsoever to us - which is something I wholeheartedly concur of, being a player who tries to honour any agreements and treaties made myself - but is the actual goal of what's going on here (giving oil to Q, stalling diplo with Sirius, and so forth) to try to force Sirius' hand into declaring war on us? Or what is the current plan of the masterminds behind the Amazon strategy?

Sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong thread, but it seems appopriate here since what I'm trying to figure out is what going to happen with us vs. Sirius.

 

[2metraninja]

We still have to discuss, decide and most probably vote on our general course about the post-M&M era.

All the time, since the founding of the ETTT, our idea was after the 4vs2 war is won, we to achieve 3vs1 situation. This suggests that we have to separate one team, which in the course of the game we was leaning first to be Q as they seemed a zombie and we had no any additional treaties with them and they were the weakest back then - having lost 2 major wars with Mavericks, but since then it seems they have awaken and are doing fine and acting reasonable. Also, the land grab from the Mavericks lands between Q and Sirius and then Amazon and Sirius went absolutely favorable for Sirius and now they grow too strong. While discussing what should we do, Sirius go ahead and attacked Q before we are finished with Merlot. We all agreed that this is the best possible time we to deal with Sirius, because if Q falls and when CDZ is somewhat weak, once we are at 1:1 with Sirius, they will be too strong for us to tackle.

Since then we are trying to keep the balance in ETTT, and we still have to decide that we are going to challenge Sirius and make concrete plans about it.

I guess when Captain Sommerswerd is back, we must organize discussion and then voting. We cant stay undecided for eternity.

Sirius have indeed the most powerful army, but ours is not to be underestimated too. Even only combined with Q, put aside CDZ, we have good chances.

Another thing is that we manage to put Sirius in isolation either by throwing them out of the ETTT or by making them to outright break their treaties. Then we have our 3vs1 situation served at plate

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm not up to speed on the current military situation of Sirius, Quattronia and ourselves. I reviewed the screenshots, but was hard to tell based on them, other than the fact that I vaguely have the feeling that Sirius is stronger militarywise than we are.

This is correct. Sirius has a stronger military than we do. They especially have a much stronger navy, but their army is bigger than ours too. Most importantly we only have 1 source of Oil while they have 3. Our army is very strong, and it is unlikely that Sirius would challenge us directly without help, but they have much much better production and could overcome us in a 1 on 1 conflict.

What are the odds of us - provided we are in an alliance with Q - actually defeating the Sirians?

It depends on how aggressive Q are. If Q were to draft and slave aggressively and make the right units, cannon MGs and Destroyers, we have a good chance to overcome Sirius, but it would still be a tough fight.

CDZ doesn't offer much of a enemy since their turnplayer is even missing

CDZ is a zombie-civ. We should treat them accordingly. They will still gift us tech and they will probably remain neutral, but we cant count on help from them against Q or against Sirius. They are just a non-factor at this point.

At this point it seems as if winning the game stands between either us or Sirius - and Sirius of course knows this as well as we do, which is probably why they are attacking Q to gain the upper hand in a conflict with us after that.

This is probably right, which is why we need to be careful about siding with Q or Sirius openly, since neither has truly shown a commitment to destroy the other. They seem to be just dancing around each other wating to see what our move will be.

I understand that breaking treaties is not an option

For me personally I dont want to break any treaties. Whatever we do, I would want to do it within the bounds of our treaties.

but is the actual goal of what's going on here (giving oil to Q, stalling diplo with Sirius, and so forth) to try to force Sirius' hand into declaring war on us?

We give Oil to Q because they are our allies and they asked us for it. This is contrary to Sirius goals, but Sirius goals are not necessarily ours, since they are already complaining that "only one team can win". If that is already how they are thinking, then we can't let them get such a huge advantage by absorbing all of Q since they are already winning. If they were talking more cooperatively, (like trying to get our scores into equilibrium and sharing tech) it would be different, but they are clearly trying to run away with the game (by out-teching everyone) so its a sticky situation.

The treaty (SAP) that SilCon wrote is a very good one, and basically makes it impossible for Sirius to stop gifting tech to all allies without de-facto DoWing all of us, which is exactly what we want. We can continue to get tech and remain competitive, or we get a 3 on 1 vs Sirius handed to us on a silver platter. TBH their best option is to stay in the ETTT and try to use their superior production to win a space race, but I think they may be too shortsighted for that.

 

[damnrunner]

One thing about relative army strenght - our army has more experience than anyone else and we have the capcity to pruduce higher xp units than Sirius due to our Great Generals. Production wise they slaughter us as they have bigger cities and also have dikes. As our cities get larger and if we get the Mining Inc Corp we will probably be fairly close in production potential.