Embassy to Team Sirius

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think they will take "divined in a dream" literally.

And what I meant about LP was that he is impatient with long waiting times for replies to his messages. He is perfectly fine with taking his time to reply to messages from others.

We could mention that we saw their wb... maybe we rowed out to it on a raft and shared a tale or two and some food or drink before sending them on their way. Just something good natured to show we were friendly. Other than that, I say send it. It is actually fine to send as-is.

 

[SilentConfusion]

When going to send the letter to them, I found this short communication in our inbox. It was sent 6 hours ago and they have not yet taken our turn, so I assume we are in time for them to switch to Alphabet.

Hail SilentConfusion and The AMAZON

We appreciate the need for you to consider all of the information in our latest correspondence, and are aware that in general you have been at least as quick to respond as we have been ourselves. However, we do think it is worthwhile informing you that were we to direct our research towards Alphabet, we would do so starting from this current turn. So, it would be excellent to hear at least a short correspondence on just this one issue.

Respectfully yours,

 

[SilentConfusion]

This letter was sent out from our email 6 hours after their last short message:

Greetings to the Sirians,

Not that long ago we were pleased to see Voyager just outside of our cultural borders. Some AMAZONs even rowed out to share food and exchange greetings with Voyager before sending them on their way.

We are heartened to know that our Sirian neighbors are learning more about mastering the waves. Soon our mighty navies shall rule the seas. Alas if only one of our nations had unlocked the secret of Alphabet, we would have been happy to share this knowledge with you. Our shipwrights have long been experimenting with stretching sheepskins across wooden frames to make larger sails.

We understand wholeheartedly your desire to build and test out larger boats, and although this represents a slight amount of the duplicate research we hoped to avoid, we are hopeful that more open communication can benefit both of our teams in the future. We are eager to start technology trading and to avoid any further duplicate teching. Towards this end, we would like to accept your suggestion that we direct our research toward Monarchy while you pursue Alphabet. We are yet without The Wheel or Pottery, but we have set our research path towards Monarchy in order to facilitate earlier tech trading and to avoid duplicate further duplicate research. We look forward to trading techs with you when Alphabet is discovered around turn 51. We have all of the first tier techs except for the Wheel, as well as Sailing, Animal Husbandry, and Bronze Working. We are currently teching the Monarchy prerequisites and are happy to trade any techs that you don't have with you as soon as an Alphabet has been discovered with which to more easily transfer them. We would ask for a similar willingness from you.

Regarding the information about trade routes and cultural bridges over ocean tiles, we feared this might be the case. We will therefore not get to share the resources of our own island with you for some time. For the time being our Open Borders agreement can stand as a symbol of our close relations and our desire to work together.

About a Non-Aggression Pact, we are sure you agree that cooperative teching requires peaceful cooperation. We are therefore delighted with the spirit of your suggested NAP. We would like to ask one question of the Sirians, to better clarify the nature of our burgeoning friendship. Would the Sirians like to be the best of friends, while maintaining maximum flexibility to talk over potential developments and refine our relationship as the need arises? Or do the Sirians wish to cement our cooperative venture for a well defined period to our mutual benefit, and then part ways as friends without further obligation, of course still able to re-enter a new cooperative agreement. For simplicity, we can name these options Diana's plan (as it was our princess Diana who came up with it) and Hera's vision (as one of Hera's priestesses divined the plan in a dream).

Our suggestion is that the Sirians choose whichever of the following best suits them.

Diana's plan: Immediate Permanent NAP, subject to cancellation at any time with 15 turns notice.
Hera's vision: Irrevocable NAP until 1AD, at which time we may negotiate a new NAP with new terms to fit the changed situation or we may part ways.

Let us know as soon as possible if you are delaying Alphabet, so that we can change our tech path if necessary.

Hopefully things are well with our Sirian friends since we last heard from them. May our relationship shine ever more brightly as we go forward and raise our civilizations from obscurity.

Sincerely yours,

SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat.

 

[Sommerswerd]

So they (LP) are getting impatient already... Well at least we have our communication ready.

 

[SilentConfusion]

This from Sirius on T44:

Hail SilentConfusion and The AMAZON

Our people were delighted to receive your latest correspondence. We would like to confirm that our research towards Alphabet is indeed well on track. We look forward to the sharing of ideas that this will allow.

Voyager was quite pleased indeed to see the borders of The AMAZON as well.

We agree that the duplication towards Sailing is unfortunate. Our people were very eager to explore Andromeda (Jennilund) however. We had in fact recently noticed that our research in this was progressing faster than expected, and suspected that our researchers were borrowing ideas from things they had seen in the waters around The AMAZON, however by the time we noticed this it made more sense to press on and complete the research. We agree that avoiding this duplication in the future would be much preferred.

We have held a vote, and decided to adopt Diana's Plan: "Immediate Permanent NAP, subject to cancellation at any time with 15 turns notice". We are pleased to begin this agreement straight away.

However, we also wonder whether it is possible to eat our cake and have it too, by agreeing to both plans. This gives both the desirable sense of permanence of Diana's Plan, and the additional short-term security of Hera's Vision. We are interested in your thoughts on this.

Regards,

 

[damnrunner]

Hmm how would accepting both work? NAP until 0 and then 15 turn notice?

 

[SilentConfusion]

Ok, so:

1. They are researching Alphabet. This is good news for us. Means we can share techs sooner.
2. They wanted Sailing to explore Jennilund, and still have not mentioned settling plans. Could be they hope to sneak a fast settler over there. I think speed for our settler is of utmost importance.
3. Their choice of NAP is interesting. They chose the flexibility of Diana's plan is interesting, but they obviously are more worried about us attacking them. The fact that they would want the non canceling one, probably means they're not planning on attacking us, and are at least somewhat worried about us attacking them. We'll have to keep this in mind.

I don't think we should implement the double NAP. I think the one should be sufficient. We let them choose which one suited them. We can say we were torn between the security of the one and the flexibility of the other, and anyway I don't see how we can have both. What's the point of a 15 turn cool-down if we can't declare war anyway.

 

[SilentConfusion]

What they are essentially saying that what they want is the offer they proposed before, about unbreakable NAP until 1AD, then revert to a more flexible NAP with cool-down. I am actually quite surprised they chose the one they did, as the other one seemed more in line with their last proposal.

I think when they say "we have held a vote" that means they were undecided and some of the people on the team are not too sure they are happy with the outcome of the vote.

 

[damnrunner]

I think the map maker made an interesting choice by putting out two teams side by side. We can build settlers faster - but they get a culture boost. In a land grab we will be fairly matched.

We may want to talk to them about coordinating fog busting and limiting the # of early units on Jennyland so that neither side can wage much offense. That could address some of there concerns, but would still give us freedom to try and grab better city sites.

I think we send a message back say thing we generally agree, but will want to get a scout over to Jennyland 1st before we agree to anything final. We can say that we want to make sure that the land mass is not unbalanced as it could easily be set up in a manner that essentially requires early war (all resources on one side). We then say we don't expect this to be the case, and want to sign the agreement. But first want to double check before we sign anything that could be binding for so long. Then, as good will, we say when our galley will drop off a scout. And ask then to tell us the same info.

Can then mention that if we do sign an agreement it may make sense to include a status of forces agreement so that both side are confident that the other is not planning aggression.

 

[remake20]

Sounds good can't wait to star teching together.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We have a NAP with them now. It is the one that SilCon wanted, and IMO, the best one for us. We should not agree to any more changes in the NAP for now. We should just talk amongst ourselves about what there is to be gained by making changes or additions to the NAP that we have... however there is no rush to do this, since we have a NAP already.

SilCon is right that their suggestion is basically just re-offering the NAP that we already rejected...

The reason we gave them a choice was to get some insight into their intentions towards us. So what we know now, is that they really want permanent peace with us. That is why they are wanting to combine agreements. We can talk about permanent peace with them, or something longer term, but we don't need to make any decisions until after we get Alpha from them. We definitely don't want to make an unbreakable NAP with them, only to have them deal sharply with us on tech trades.

For example... what if we agree to NAP until 1AD, and then they ask for premium price for Alpha, instead of just full tech swapping?... under our current NAP we could say "we agree to pay extra for Alpha" but then cancel the NAP, stating that they are not the friends we thought they were and we wish to re-negotiate our relations in 15 turns. That will pressure them to swap all tech instead of asking for premium price. If we had already agreed to a non-revokable NAP, we would have no recourse.

 

[SilentConfusion]

We have a NAP with them now. It is the one that SilCon wanted, and IMO, the best one for us. We should not agree to any more changes in the NAP for now. We should just talk amongst ourselves about what there is to be gained by making changes or additions to the NAP that we have... however there is no rush to do this, since we have a NAP already.

SilCon is right that their suggestion is basically just re-offering the NAP that we already rejected...

The reason we gave them a choice was to get some insight into their intentions towards us. So what we know now, is that they really want permanent peace with us. That is why they are wanting to combine agreements. We can talk about permanent peace with them, or something longer term, but we don't need to make any decisions until after we get Alpha from them. We definitely don't want to make an unbreakable NAP with them, only to have them deal sharply with us on tech trades.

For example... what if we agree to NAP until 1AD, and then they ask for premium price for Alpha, instead of just full tech swapping?... under our current NAP we could say "we agree to pay extra for Alpha" but then cancel the NAP, stating that they are not the friends we thought they were and we wish to re-negotiate our relations in 15 turns. That will pressure them to swap all tech instead of asking for premium price. If we had already agreed to a non-revokable NAP, we would have no recourse.

Good point about the value of the flexible NAP. It allows us to hold the threat of canceling the NAP somewhat over their heads, and since they do not want to fight us, this is a good thing.

I agree that we can write back and say that we now have a NAP in effect and that we can talk about a permanent peace, but we would at least want to wait until seeing that they are going to trade fairly with us. Or at least get some more rules in regarding tech trading and how it's going to work.

 

[damnrunner]

I think that strategy makes a lot of sense.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Missing a turn means that Sirius wb will gain ground on Martha ... oh well.

We should start working on a tech-sharing alliance so that we have it in place BEFORE they get Alpha.

As for right now our only response to their last question could be something like this.

We have enjoyed our friendship with the Sirians, and are very interested in discussing an expansion of our friendship. Princess Diana was so pleased that the Sirians accepted her plan that she immediately mentioned planning a special ceremony to make the Sirians honorary Members of The AMAZON. Our elders will discuss such an eventuality further and contact you soon. In the mean time, we look forward to receiving Alphabet in our upcoming trades with you on turn 51.

This let's them know we are considering a more permanent alliance, without tying us down to specifics, and most importantly, does not ignore their last message.

This also reminds them that we expect Alpha soon.

 

[remake20]

We need one of those fancy contracts to make this more official and make it look like we can't break it. I wish we had the general, but we don't, so SC care to make one?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Maybe damnrunner or I can dig up one of the old Kaz or SANCTA treaties to use as a template. No use reinventing the wheel... Especially since Sirius already invented it.

 

[damnrunner]

I have some ideas for details of a treaty that could lay out specifics of territory control for Jennyland. I think a clear plan for the island will simplify everything else as it will take away the primary point where we will be directly competing. And since we each have island to the south - a clear agreement to share jennyland will allow both teams to focuses military energy elsewhere.

Of course this is dependent on what we find on Jennyland. It may be set up in a manner that forces competition.

 

[Sommerswerd]

With Voyager basically neck and neck with Martha, we may as well be realistic and start planning for an alliance with Sirius. There is little hope that we are going to have enough time to put anything meaningful together with another team before Sirius meets them. And anyway, Sirius has potential to be a fine ally.

To speed the process along, I have included the language of some previous treaties. There were two principal treaties in the last BTS MTDG:

The one between Kazakhstan and Cavalieros (primary credits to Provolution and Oyzar IIRC, along with additions from the teams' other members) :

Spoiler :

The CavKaz Treaty of 2080BC, signed on T48

§0. Treaty Duration and cancellation terms
* This treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the treaty can not be given before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§1. Peace and Non-Aggression
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile action of any kind towards the other people.


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. If passage is needed before that time, it will be handled through a phony state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* Team Cavaleiros and Team Kazakhstan agree to form an Exclusive Tech Alliance (ETA). Neither member of the ETA will buy, sell or trade technologies with a civ/team outside the ETA without the consent of the other ETA member.
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to achieve the following trade as soon as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Preisthood, Monarchy, Feudalism*
- *If team Cav fail to acieve the Oracle first then Team Kaz will gift Alphabet to Team Cav on the turn after the failure is confirmed.
- *If team Cav build the Oracle before being able to slingshot to Feudalism they agree to give the tech they get instead in exchange
* Both peoples agree to adhere to follow the agreed advancement plan as close as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to tech Writing > Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to tech Priesthood > Monarchy > Feudalism (through Oracle)
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies will be traded as quickly as pre-requisites restrictions allow, with Alphabet and Feudalism being exchanged on the same turn.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own team.


§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to negotiate trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion, after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* The people of Kazakhstan agree to not build the Oracle and the people of Cavaleiros agree to build it with all due haste.


§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find a third civilized people to include in the Exclusive Tech Alliance, and agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people unless all three parties agree for it to be so.

And the one between SANCTA and Saturn (primary credit to General_W, along with additions from other members of SANCTA):

Spoiler :

The PASS​

Permanent Alliance of Saturn-SANCTA
Draft 2​

An agreement between Saturn (Persia) and SANCTA (the Netherlands).
Whereby it is recognized that the thee-way alliance of foreign powers is poised to run away with this game if they are not stopped.

Whereby it is recognized that it is in our mutual self interest to fully cooperate until we are the only two remaining powers in the game.



Article 1: Non-Aggression

It is hereby agreed that we will not attack each other or provide aid, in any form, to anyone fighting any member of the alliance.​

Article 2: Exclusivity

It is hereby agreed that we will not trade or gift technology, offer financial aid or information about alliance plans, or provide military support in any form to non-members of the Alliance. Exceptions to this can be made only by express mutual agreement. (Saturn’s current Math for Feudalism deal is also exempted)
It is furthermore agreed that we will offer each other first choice on any resource trades. Only if the other member of the alliance is uninterested or unable to make a reasonable trade for a resource, will we then seek to trade outside of the alliance.
​

Article 3: Defense

It is hereby agreed that if either member of the alliance comes under direct military attack by an enemy power and the other alliance member is NOT under direct (or imminently direct) attack - the Alliance member who is not under attack will provide significant material and/or financial aid as quickly as they are able.

This defense provision does NOT apply to offensive wars started by a member of the Alliance for purposes of conquest. (Pre-emptive attacks against an invading force are allowed and still count as defense).
​

Article 4: Technology Cooperation

It is hereby agreed that we will cooperate on technology in a generous fashion with eachother.
It is hereby agreed that we will pursue rapid technological advance in good faith – and not attempt to abuse the alliance.
(ie - No member of the Alliance shall stockpile gold at a rate greater than is reasonably necessary for general strategic concerns.)
It is hereby agreed that we will openly and forthrightly share research plans to avoid any duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.
It is hereby agreed that all technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value, with eachother.​

Article 5: End of the Alliance

This alliance will end when Saturn and SANCTA are the only two remaining teams in the game, or upon express mutual agreement to terminate the alliance.
It is hereby agreed that the non-aggression (article 1) part of this alliance will remain in-force for a minimum of 10 turns after the last foreign power is eliminated from the game (either by destruction or capitulation).​

IMO Some of the strongest paragraphs were:

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan The AMAZON and Siriusagree that in the case that either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to negotiate trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle(Pyramids/Great Wall (for our purposes)
* The people of the Cavalieros (Sirius for our purposes) recognize the wishes and needs of the people of Kazakhstan (The AMAZON for our purposes) for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion, after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* The people of Kazakhstan (Sirius for our purposes) agree to not build the OraclePyramids/Great Wall and the people of Cavalieros The AMAZON agree to build it with all due haste.


§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find a third (Maybe we could add "fourth" or "fifth") civilized people to include in the Exclusive Tech Alliance, and agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people unless all three parties agree for it to be so.

Article 4: Technology Cooperation

It is hereby agreed that we will cooperate on technology in a generous fashion with eachother.
It is hereby agreed that we will pursue rapid technological advance in good faith – and not attempt to abuse the alliance.
(ie - No member of the Alliance shall stockpile gold at a rate greater than is reasonably necessary for general strategic concerns.)
It is hereby agreed that we will openly and forthrightly share research plans to avoid any duplication of effort and ensure rapid progress.
It is hereby agreed that all technology shall be shared openly, upon request, without regard to beaker value, with eachother.​

Article 5: End of the Alliance

This alliance will end when Saturn and SANCTA are the only two remaining teams in the game, or upon express mutual agreement to terminate the alliance.
It is hereby agreed that the non-aggression (article 1) part of this alliance will remain in-force for a minimum of 10 turns after the last foreign power is eliminated from the game (either by destruction or capitulation).​

[/FONT]

The P.A.S.S. is much simpler, and greatly impressed Lord Parkin (although he and Saturn were in a pretty desperate situation when they accepted it) so we may want to consider that when we draft our proposal.

One strength of the CavKaz is it's specificity which may be more attractive to Sirius, as they have the advantage... The CavKaz was written between two teams in a similar situation as us and Sirius... where one was FIN and the other was IMP... Sirius may have some similar concerns as Kaz did about the versus REX imbalance pairing up with an IMP, non-FIN civ.

To anyone interested, Here are links to the two treaties... in case you want to peruse the discussion in the old forums about them for yourselves:
1. The CavKaz ETA (Exclusive Tech Alliance)
2. The P.A.S.S. (Permanent Alliance of SANCTA and Saturn)

 

[Sommerswerd]

Another point... We probably should acknowledge to Sirius that they saw our Martha boat. Not doing so, or waiting for them to mention it makes us look even more deceptive... So I would add the stuff in BOLD to my last proposed quick message, and go ahead and send it to them before they mention seeing Martha to us.

We have enjoyed our friendship with the Sirians, and are very interested in discussing an expansion of our friendship. Princess Diana was so pleased that the Sirians accepted her plan that she immediately mentioned planning a special ceremony to make the Sirians honorary Members of The AMAZON. Our elders will discuss such an eventuality further and contact you soon. In the mean time, we look forward to receiving Alphabet in our upcoming trades with you on turn 51.

On an unrelated topic, our second intrepid explorer, Martha got "lost" on her voyage eastward. She claims that she lost track of navigational star, but we suspect that she may have just overslept after an impromptu, un-sanctioned AMAZON drinking party aboard the vessel. A full investigation into her fitness as an explorere is currently underway. The silver lining of her unscheduled detour was that she was able to spot Voyager speeding along on the horizon behind her... With our vessels so close, hopefully the opportunity to co-ordinate the exploration of a landmass will soon present itself. When the time comes, would the Sirians be interested in splitting our vessels paths, so that we can explore more quickly? Of course the fruits of any such joint-venture would be shared equally.

One good thing about this approach, is it asks a question, and puts the ball back in their court to show their intentions... If they don't respond, or they ignore our question about joint exploration, then we know they are cross with us about the second workboat. If they agree to joint exploration, they maybe they don't care as much, and are just happy to have caught up.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Ok, I think we should send that message about Martha and confirming our NAP tonight or tomorrow morning. Then we can send a formalized treaty request. It'd be good for us to send it to them, rather than the other way around. It should also ease their concerns about us turning on them swiftly. It shows we're putting extra effort into our relations with them.

And we should talk about land divisions also, because petty squabbling could be detrimental to our tech progress.

I will type up a draft using the suggestions everyone has made and put it up here before I sleep tonight.