Embassy to Team Sirius

[SilentConfusion]

Sirius accepted our Open Borders request in-game. No message yet in our inbox, but they're probably working on it right now.

When we hear back from them we'll get some more idea about what they're thinking. I suspect their letter will at least have a proposed NAP, considering how long it is taking to respond. We can look at what they offer and hopefully learn what they think about us and our relation to each other.

While we wait we can think about what kind of NAP we'd want. What's the ideal NAP for us? And what would be acceptable? Thinking about this now should help us be able to respond to their offer quicker.

I'll keep checking for messages and post it immediately.

 

[leonisgod]

We agree to a NAP so long as you don't set foot on Jennilund for any purpose other than to make us offerings? just kidding.

I am worried though about not being able to fight them on the island since they will effectively be fighting us with culture...the silent killer. On the other hand, if we can colonize everything and they're trustworthy, then they can't attack us and boot us out. Then it's a race to claim land.

 

[damnrunner]

If we get a Religion we will be able to push back on culture fairly well. As long as we get to Jennyland 1st - which it looks like we will. It does not seem likely that we would be able to found Judaism on Jennyland does it. We would have to slave down Otreta and grow the #3 city really fast to pull that off. If it is possible though it may be something to pursue.

This is totally an evil idea but is it possible to whip a galley before their WB comes by. Killing the WB would be mean but would ridiculously isolate them. Just a thought.

 

[nabaxo]

I was notified by Parkin that we had a mail, I'm posting it here:

Greetings again. Thanks for your reply and your openness.

We congratulate you also then on the founding of your new city, and give our condolences on missing your chance to build Stonehenge. We hope the work you had in progress there can at least be sold for gold to pay for some of the maintainence costs of your new city.

As you have probably already seen, we are pleased to accept your offer of open borders. We have discovered, with some experimentation, something unfortunate however. It appears the mechanics of this world are such that Jenny will not be able to cross the deep ocean waters to our island despite both our open borders agreement and our desire to let our cultural knowledge of those waters assist you. Similarly, we expect our Voyager will be unable to reach your home shores. This however is just a minor incovenience compared to the fact that it appears our trade will suffer from the same problems. Although each of us will be able to trade with future settlements on Andromeda (Jennilund as you call it), our capitals will not be connected, preventing either of us from gaining these more lucrative trade routes, and also preventing the exchange of resources. We will likely need to have more discussion of this issue in the future.


We are pleased to hear your confirmation of interest in trading technology. We are currently investigating Sailing. After this, many of us strongly desire to discover a system of Monarchy to keep our people happy under a better government system. However we also think that the sooner we can begin trading technology the better. So, we can consider diverting our efforts towards an Alphabet (once our already begun investigation into Sailing is complete), but we would be much happier to do so if we were likely to be able to gain in trade at least some of the pre-requisite ideas towards Monarchy. Currently our people have no Mysticism at all. Another benefit of your team pursuing some of the religious technologies is that it's most likely to avoid duplicating ideas which we have already, as we have most of the alternative technologies you may be considering. We'd be glad to hear your thoughts and what areas you were planning to research next.

Were we to direct our efforts towards Alphabet, we expect to be able to discover it on turn 51.


We have a simple draft proposal for the terms of the non-aggression pact:
* No declaration of war until the year 1AD, with terms to be re-negotiated at that time.
* An agreement that even after 1AD, either side give at least 10 turns warning prior to declaring war.

Let us know your thoughts on this proposal.

Irgy, on behalf of Team Sirius.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I was notified by Parkin that we had a mail, I'm posting it here:

Thanks for doing that. I had actually just checked and copied the message getting ready to paste it here to see that nabaxo had beat me to it.

So let's look at this letter...

I was afraid that Open Borders wouldn't allow us to trade.

Ok. So they are teching Sailing. They just told us that trade routes don't work, so the reason must be to ferry people across to Jennilund (which they Andromeda). I'd say our 3rd city definitely goes over there. In fact the reason they might not have brought up land settling is that they might be hoping to get there first.

They want to tech Monarchy, but would consider diverting to Alphabet. They say they would want at least some of the pre-requisites towards Monarchy. I'd say that that might work out for us. We can tech towards Monarchy. Hopefully we can get the religion at Monotheism. If the religion is gone by the time we finish Masonry, we can go the other way (through Priesthood). We'll have "at least some of the pre-requisites" for Monarchy by T51.

We could explicitly ask them if they have Pottery and would trade it with us as soon as that becomes an option, with the understanding that this is a requirement for us to tech tradeable techs towards Monarchy.

I do not much like that NAP though. Is it just me or does that look bad to others? If I understand that right, that is no attacking until 1AD, period. No cool-down period, or requisite turns of warning. And the second part I like even less. The first part says that the terms will be re-negotiated at 1AD. But the second part tells at least some of what the terms will be, so apparently they will only be partly negotiated at 1AD. If we accept this NAP and the part that says "An agreement that even after 1AD, either side give at least 10 turns warning prior to declaring war." we are accepting that term for the rest of the game. At the very least I think that this part should be negotiated too, not just decided now and will come into affect thousands of years from now. I'm not sure about 1AD. That might be fine. But I do not want to agree to something that will only come into affect in thousands of years when everything might have changed. I'd say that that is something we can negotiate at 1AD, when we are renegotiating the NAP, but since it is not going to be needed before that there's no reason to add it.

An absolute date like that, rather than a rolling NAP with a 15 turn warning required to declare war? How do we feel about that? In the early game we're going to want to utilize their tech help, so that makes fighting them much more questionable. But we also might meet someone else who's already in a 3-way tech alliance. If we are tied down too tightly we won't have the flexibility required to do creative things. I think we want the least rigidity that they will accept. The offer they've given us is very rigid. I am unquestionably in favor of making a counter offer and not accepting theirs.

 

[remake20]

This is going to work out great. We head towards monarchy through Mono while they get alphabet. I think just to be more honest we can mention that we never started to build Stonehenge, so we didn't get any money.

 

[SilentConfusion]

This is going to work out great. We head towards monarchy through Mono while they get alphabet. I think just to be more honest we can mention that we never started to build Stonehenge, so we didn't get any money.

I honestly don't think we need to mention anything like that.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Maybe you could use this paragraph in our reply:

We are heartened to know that our Sirian neighbors are learning more about mastering the waves. Soon our mighty navies shall rule the seas. Alas if only one of our nations had unlocked the secret of Alphabet, we would have been happy to share this knowledge with you. Our shipwrights have log been experimenting with stretching sheepskins across wooden frames to make larger sails.

We understand wholeheartedly your desire to build and test out larger boats, and although this represents a slight amount of the duplicate research we hoped to avoid, we ate still happy to cooperate with you. Towards these ends, we would like to take accept your offer to direct our research toward Monarchy while you pursue Alphabet... we will look forward to trading Alphabet with you on turn 51.

As to our Non-Aggression Pact, we are sure you agree that cooperative teching requires peaceful cooperation. We are therefore delighted with the spirit of your suggested NAP. We would like to humbly offer one minor adjustment, to better clarify the nature of our burgeoning friendship. Would the Sirians like to be the best of friends, while maintaining maximum flexibility to talk over potential developments and refine our relationship as the need arises? Or do the Sirians wish to cement our cooperative venture for a well defined period to our mutual benefit, and then part ways as friends without further obligation, of course still able to re-enter a new cooperative agreement. For simplicity, we can name these options Diana's plan (as it was our princess Diana who came up with it) and Hera's vision (as one of Hera's priestesses divined the plan in a dream).

Diana's plan- Immediate Permanent NAP, subject to cancellation at any time with 15 turns notice.

Hera's vision- Irrevocable NAP until 1AD

This gives them a choice which may give away their intentions.

 

[Norton I]

1) This is my first multiplayer game, and I hope someone can explain to me what the NAP thing is about. What is the difference between peace and a NAP? If I understand it correctly peace is something you can break at any moment, but you cannot break a NAP... is that right? Who prevents you from breaking a NAP? Are any game rules that force you to stick to such an agreement? Or is it just that your enemy will be even angrier with you when you break a NAP than when you attack them otherwise?

2) So far we have been assuming that the tech deal consists of sharing all techs. Maybe we should make sure this is also how Sirius sees it. Since they have a higher tech rate they might see things differently...

 

[damnrunner]

NAP is us giving our word. It has not enforcement mechanism other than breaking it would damage our reputation and would make other civs less willing to trust us. I have also seen people suggest that they would not break a treaty as it would hurt there reputation in other games.

Personally I think what keeps a treaty from being broken is that it serves the interests of both parties.

 

[Norton I]

NAP is us giving our word. It has not enforcement mechanism other than breaking it would damage our reputation and would make other civs less willing to trust us. I have also seen people suggest that they would not break a treaty as it would hurt there reputation in other games.

I see. So this means we will tell other teams about our NAP with Sirius then? Before agreeing to a NAP I would like to know how you all think about breaking a NAP. I wouldn't have any problem with that, this is a game, not real life, and we're not trying to win a nobel peace prize. Gaining a significant advantage by deceiving an ally is one of those things you won't do in real life, and makes games so much fun.

But that is my opinion, and I understand if people feel differently about it. Maybe because you feel that giving your word in a game is comparable with giving your word in real life or maybe because you fear repercussions in other games (I don't know how this works, and I wouldn't want to ruin anyone multiplayer career!).

So, basically, I would like to hear from you all how you feel about this type of things. It's probably good to know before we sign anything.

 

[Calis]

There is the great advantage of a multi-team demogame. No single person is responsible for such a thing and usually the reputaion of no-one as a player will get hurt.

It's different in other MP player games, where each civ is represented by a single player.

I personally always prefer to play honorably. If we establish a non agression pact with Sirius, I would always reject an offensive move against them. It's just not my style of playing.

 

[nabaxo]

Shouldn't we respond soon?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes it has been a few days since they contacted us... please let's not forget that LP tends to become disgruntled about slow communications. If we are not ready to respond fully, we should at least send a short letter acknowledging theirs, mentioning we saw Voyager of our coast and waved hello... something like that and let them know we are discussing their proposal.

 

[remake20]

I don't have much experience with things such as NAPs, so I will leave this discussion to others.

 

[damnrunner]

They will now be realizing the small size of Jennyland and may be reassessing earlier plans of friendship.

A response back that is friendly would be good as we don't want to have to fight them for early land if we don't have to.

 

[Norton I]

An absolute date like that, rather than a rolling NAP with a 15 turn warning required to declare war? How do we feel about that? In the early game we're going to want to utilize their tech help, so that makes fighting them much more questionable. But we also might meet someone else who's already in a 3-way tech alliance.

This is a good point. I think we should just stall the NAP discussion. We can answer them that we are interested and simply offer some more alternatives. We can probably send a few mails back and forth before any final agreement. That will buy us some time to meet other neighbours. We don't need to sign anything until they have alpha.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I will write up something tonight. We should, in my opinion, tell them that we are going towards Monarchy, so they will tech Alphabet. We can offer some alternatives like Sommerswerd posted.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Ok. Here we go. I agree that sending out the communication quickly is imperative, although I was surprised how long it took them to send their reply (especially considering how LP is rumored to dislike tardy communications). Much of the language was adapted from Sommerswerd's suggestion.

Greetings to the Sirians,


We are heartened to know that our Sirian neighbors are learning more about mastering the waves. Soon our mighty navies shall rule the seas. Alas if only one of our nations had unlocked the secret of Alphabet, we would have been happy to share this knowledge with you. Our shipwrights have long been experimenting with stretching sheepskins across wooden frames to make larger sails.

We understand wholeheartedly your desire to build and test out larger boats, and although this represents a slight amount of the duplicate research we hoped to avoid, we are hopeful that more open communication can benefit both of our teams in the future. We are eager to start technology trading and to avoid any further duplicate teching. Towards this end, we would like to accept your suggestion that we direct our research toward Monarchy while you pursue Alphabet. We are yet without The Wheel or Pottery, but we have set our research path towards Monarchy in order to facilitate earlier tech trading and to avoid duplicate further duplicate research. We look forward to trading techs with you when Alphabet is discovered around turn 51. We have all of the first tier techs except for the Wheel, as well as Sailing, Animal Husbandry, and Bronze Working. We are currently teching the Monarchy prerequisites and are happy to trade any techs that you don't have with you as soon as an Alphabet has been discovered with which to more easily transfer them. We would ask for a similar willingness from you.

Regarding the information about trade routes and cultural bridges over ocean tiles, we feared this might be the case. We will therefore not get to share the resources of our own island with you for some time. For the time being our Open Borders agreement can stand as a symbol of our close relations and desire to work together.

About a Non-Aggression Pact, we are sure you agree that cooperative teching requires peaceful cooperation. We are therefore delighted with the spirit of your suggested NAP. We would like to ask one question of the Sirians, to better clarify the nature of our burgeoning friendship. Would the Sirians like to be the best of friends, while maintaining maximum flexibility to talk over potential developments and refine our relationship as the need arises? Or do the Sirians wish to cement our cooperative venture for a well defined period to our mutual benefit, and then part ways as friends without further obligation, of course still able to re-enter a new cooperative agreement. For simplicity, we can name these options Diana's plan (as it was our princess Diana who came up with it) and Hera's vision (as one of Hera's priestesses divined the plan in a dream).

Our suggestion is that the Sirians choose whichever of the following best suits them.

Diana's plan- Immediate Permanent NAP, subject to cancellation at any time with 15 turns notice.

Hera's vision- Irrevocable NAP until 1AD, at which time we may negotiate a new NAP with new terms to fit the changed situation or we may part ways.

Let us know as soon as possible if you are delaying Alphabet, so that we can change our tech path if necessary.

Hopefully things are well with our Sirian friends since we last heard from them. May our relationship shine ever more brightly as we go forward and raise our civilizations from obscurity.

Sincerely yours,

SilentConfusion, AMAZON diplomat.

I'm not sure about the part about the NAP plan's names (Hera and Diana). I think it is good to give them a name so they can be distinguished, but I feel a little weird saying stuff like the priestess divined the plan in a dream. Just think it sounds like we didn't put much thought into it but just had a vision. I left it in though, because I don't think it's that bad. Does anyone have an opinion either way. We could just call them Plan 1 and Plan 2, or we could just call them Diana's Plan and Hera's Plan without giving an exact explanation of why we call them these things.

 

[nabaxo]

Or we could say that our council of elders chose to name the two options after our deities. Either way, it should be sent ASAP.