Empiremaker
Human Fish
Norton, are you playing?
Emp. Players: Let's Try Deity!
- Thread starter Lkysam
- Start date
I am as long as tomorrow's not too late.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
tomorrow's fine. Some have gone a long time to play (including your's truly).
First off, the save: View attachment Osman_550_AD.SAV
This isn't really what I meant by "tomorrow", but I was really stuck on this one, and from the fact that I wasn't skipped, I think everyone else was, too. Either that or everyone was just busy. I finally played my set just now; as to whether I really accomplished anything, only time will tell:
Preflight:
get Sumerian world map for our WM+5 gold+6gpt
disband 3 warriors; move 2 swords each toward Antalya and Suez, will disband warriors when they arrive
1 sword from Istanbul to Uskudar for MP
change some city builds--no more units right now; high-commerce cities build markets, corrupt cities build courthouses, harbor in Iznik, lib in Denizli, wealth in Bursa and Mugla
drop lux to 30, raise sci to 20, change all but 3 taxmen to geeks
IBT: nothing
1: dinky and galley continue sailing; dinky headed for China (now visible thanks to Sumerian WM)
IBT: Istanbul market->wealth; Denizli lib->harbor (20); Sumeria building Magellan's
2:
gpt now +5, so change 2 more taxmen to geeks, rep in 16, +1 gpt; 1 geek becomes citizen in Uskudar whan sword arrives
IBT: Iznik harbor->courthouse
3: swords arrive at Antalya, so disband warriors; make 1 more geek; rep in 14, breaking even
IBT: Edrine market->wealth
4:
swords reach Suez, disband warriors
raise sci to 30, rep in 11, +1 gpt
IBT: nothing
5: China will give 1 gold for territory map--forget it
IBT: nada
6: zip
IBT: Uskudar harbor->market (17)
7: zilch
IBT: gpt drops to -1; caused by forest chop in Istanbul (which is producing wealth)?
8: change geek to taxman, rep in 5, +1 gpt
IBT: Sumeria demands TM and 5 gold; we cave--attitude now cautious (was annoyed); Sumeria and China are in the IA now--this is not good; Kafa riots, so make a geek (after slapping self in head for not checking CAII at end of last turn)
9: zero
IBT: bupkus (I think that's how you spell it)
10: change all specialists to geeks, drop sci to 20, rep in 3, +8 gpt
So basically I did some building and some research, but I don't know if it did any good. IMHO we should revolt to republic ASAP, but unit support costs will be a big problem when we do. A few ideas on how to reduce costs overall:
1. Sell all barracks in all but our 5 or 6 highest-shield cities. If we decide to build up our forces later, the other cities can build bombardment units.
2. After the revolt (or maybe before), see how much luxes will cost. If we can get one for </= 13 gpt, we should. In fact, it might be good to buy as many luxes as possible as long as we still have substantal gpt coming in afterward, enough to buy a tech or two every so often. It'll also let us drop the slider and get some folks back to work.
3. Alternatively (or maybe additionally), we should give some thought to building some temples. Given our total lack of luxes, they might actually be useful.
Those things can help us get stronger, but I still don't know how to win this. The suicide galley fleet idea (to capture the GLib) might work--there's a relatively safe passage through Chinese waters, though we'll need an embassy and a RoP for that. Of course, once we land, we'll be facing riflemen (or possibly worse by then), and it might require a RoP rape if we don't want the fleet to get destroyed--I don't know how everyone feels about that. I think we should avoid it if we can.
This isn't really what I meant by "tomorrow", but I was really stuck on this one, and from the fact that I wasn't skipped, I think everyone else was, too. Either that or everyone was just busy. I finally played my set just now; as to whether I really accomplished anything, only time will tell:
Preflight:
get Sumerian world map for our WM+5 gold+6gpt
disband 3 warriors; move 2 swords each toward Antalya and Suez, will disband warriors when they arrive
1 sword from Istanbul to Uskudar for MP
change some city builds--no more units right now; high-commerce cities build markets, corrupt cities build courthouses, harbor in Iznik, lib in Denizli, wealth in Bursa and Mugla
drop lux to 30, raise sci to 20, change all but 3 taxmen to geeks
IBT: nothing
1: dinky and galley continue sailing; dinky headed for China (now visible thanks to Sumerian WM)
IBT: Istanbul market->wealth; Denizli lib->harbor (20); Sumeria building Magellan's
2:
gpt now +5, so change 2 more taxmen to geeks, rep in 16, +1 gpt; 1 geek becomes citizen in Uskudar whan sword arrives
IBT: Iznik harbor->courthouse
3: swords arrive at Antalya, so disband warriors; make 1 more geek; rep in 14, breaking even
IBT: Edrine market->wealth
4:
swords reach Suez, disband warriors
raise sci to 30, rep in 11, +1 gpt
IBT: nothing
5: China will give 1 gold for territory map--forget it
IBT: nada
6: zip
IBT: Uskudar harbor->market (17)
7: zilch
IBT: gpt drops to -1; caused by forest chop in Istanbul (which is producing wealth)?
8: change geek to taxman, rep in 5, +1 gpt
IBT: Sumeria demands TM and 5 gold; we cave--attitude now cautious (was annoyed); Sumeria and China are in the IA now--this is not good; Kafa riots, so make a geek (after slapping self in head for not checking CAII at end of last turn)
9: zero
IBT: bupkus (I think that's how you spell it)
10: change all specialists to geeks, drop sci to 20, rep in 3, +8 gpt
So basically I did some building and some research, but I don't know if it did any good. IMHO we should revolt to republic ASAP, but unit support costs will be a big problem when we do. A few ideas on how to reduce costs overall:
1. Sell all barracks in all but our 5 or 6 highest-shield cities. If we decide to build up our forces later, the other cities can build bombardment units.
2. After the revolt (or maybe before), see how much luxes will cost. If we can get one for </= 13 gpt, we should. In fact, it might be good to buy as many luxes as possible as long as we still have substantal gpt coming in afterward, enough to buy a tech or two every so often. It'll also let us drop the slider and get some folks back to work.
3. Alternatively (or maybe additionally), we should give some thought to building some temples. Given our total lack of luxes, they might actually be useful.
Those things can help us get stronger, but I still don't know how to win this. The suicide galley fleet idea (to capture the GLib) might work--there's a relatively safe passage through Chinese waters, though we'll need an embassy and a RoP for that. Of course, once we land, we'll be facing riflemen (or possibly worse by then), and it might require a RoP rape if we don't want the fleet to get destroyed--I don't know how everyone feels about that. I think we should avoid it if we can.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
There are a lot of things to figure out here. Let's keep trying. We are facing long odds to win. If we can pull it off, it is a feather in our cap.
Don't worry; I'm not giving up yet, and I'm sure no one else is, either. But this is a very unfamiliar situation for me. On emperor, the AI civs reach the Industrial Age when I trade or gift them into it, or else let them survive long enough to reach it themselves. On demigod, they get there about the same time I do (or a little before) unless I do a lot of deck-stacking. Here, we have two civs an age and a half ahead of us and have to figure out how to catch up. Our course would be much clearer had the English or the Egyptians built the GLib (or better yet, had we). The problem is that the Sumerians, the likeliest candidate to be the runaway AI, have it. To get to it, we'd have to send a fleet of suicide galleys through the Chinese archipelago between the two continents. Once the galleys were built, they would take quite a few turns to get there, by which time the Sumerians might have infantry vs. our swords. The other problem, as I mentioned, is that the invasion might require a RoP rape to avoid our fleet getting attacked by whatever ships they have. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is for everyone else; as for me, I'd rather win without it.
The other way to catch up is to go zero science and start some tech trading after we switch to republic. Success there depends on how fast we can catch up and how far the Egyptians, English, and Russians are into the middle ages. That's the strategy I'm leaning toward at the moment.
As I see it the only way to win from here is capturing the Great Lib. That would recuire us to sail a very long way or lose about 75% of our fleet trying to take the short cut, and we don't have the units for that. The long way will need us to use rop rape, otherwise we will be booted all the time. Catching up due to trading seems impossible as we are to small to get cash and not strong enough to claim more land.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Do you guys want an outside opinion?
Can't speak for anyone else, but I do.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
so, I'm not any sort of expert on deity play... but it seems to me that you guys have a large army that isn't doing anything - it's not intimidating anyone, and it's going to start costing you guys money as soon as you go to republic.
The GLib plan seems like a longshot - it's a long way to go to get to it, you'll have swords and cats and galleys vs, at the best, muskets and frigates, more likely rifles and ironclads and cavs. I suspect it will be a slaughter.
I think you have 3 choices:
1) Switch to republic, run minimum research, disband most of the army to cut down on upkeep and buy techs and luxuries (it should be fairly easy to buy techs for GPT from everyone, since you are the trailer) and get to mil tradition as soon as you can. With Sipahi, you can take over your continent fairly easily - Sipahi and cannon can take down infantry, though its a bit of a slog.
2) Disband the army and research your way out of the hole - in republic, even running high luxury, you should be able to get out of the AA fairly fast self-researching. You will have to disband much of the army to do that and perhaps sell some barrachs, but you can convert the shields to colloseum builds for happiness.
3) Don't disband the army - buy tech from egypt and use that army to beat up england. Lizzie has a large army and is probably itching to beat you up, so it will be a defensive battle, but you can probably bait the AI to try to take izmit by leaving it empty and constructing barricades along the route and heavily fortifying your forward cities, so the hordes of swords, pike and MI will be hurt, at least. If Lizzie has muskets, that will be harder, but what the heck.
A lot of your swords will die, but you are going to have to disband them anyway if you don't go to war, and, hopefully, one or two will give you leaders. a Sword army or 3 is nothing to sneeze at - if you can get 3 and build the pentagon, an army of 4 vet swords or even MI will be the best thing on the continent.
I think you have 35-40 swords and some 15 cats, plus some spears. My guess is that lizzie has about 100 military units or so, 60-70% of which are spears and pikes. I think she has some 77 or so free ones (16 per civ + 4 per city (52) deity bonus, +3 per city support under republic (25) - I would guess she has 1 worker per city, plus probably 5-10 settlers doing nothing, plus she is supporting a bunch more, so it's going to be tough. Cleo is twice as big as lizzie, plus has harder terrain. Of course, 3-4 of those will stay home in each city, so you will *only* be facing an army about 1.5 your size in units that is tecnically superior
My first thought was the military route - it's risky and I think you *have* to be buying techs from egypt to make it work, or lizze may bring cleo in, and then you are hosed - i don't think you can fight a 2 front war against two deity opponents who are more advanced technically.
If you *do* decide to go the non-military route, starting buying techs with gtp from everyone, and establish an embassy with Cleo. It's a hole you are in, yes - but you are only (I think) 9 techs from mil tradition and sipahi are a great equalizer for you guys. (poly, construction?, feudalism, engineering, invention, gunpowder, chemistry, mettalurgy, mil tradition.
Those are just thoughts, of course. I think the biggest worry for you is that you have saltpeter and lizze doesn't and wants it, so thinks that it is easier to just attack - and if lizzie attacks while you aren't ready, you will probably lose 3-4 cities.
The GLib plan seems like a longshot - it's a long way to go to get to it, you'll have swords and cats and galleys vs, at the best, muskets and frigates, more likely rifles and ironclads and cavs. I suspect it will be a slaughter.
I think you have 3 choices:
1) Switch to republic, run minimum research, disband most of the army to cut down on upkeep and buy techs and luxuries (it should be fairly easy to buy techs for GPT from everyone, since you are the trailer) and get to mil tradition as soon as you can. With Sipahi, you can take over your continent fairly easily - Sipahi and cannon can take down infantry, though its a bit of a slog.
2) Disband the army and research your way out of the hole - in republic, even running high luxury, you should be able to get out of the AA fairly fast self-researching. You will have to disband much of the army to do that and perhaps sell some barrachs, but you can convert the shields to colloseum builds for happiness.
3) Don't disband the army - buy tech from egypt and use that army to beat up england. Lizzie has a large army and is probably itching to beat you up, so it will be a defensive battle, but you can probably bait the AI to try to take izmit by leaving it empty and constructing barricades along the route and heavily fortifying your forward cities, so the hordes of swords, pike and MI will be hurt, at least. If Lizzie has muskets, that will be harder, but what the heck.
A lot of your swords will die, but you are going to have to disband them anyway if you don't go to war, and, hopefully, one or two will give you leaders. a Sword army or 3 is nothing to sneeze at - if you can get 3 and build the pentagon, an army of 4 vet swords or even MI will be the best thing on the continent.
I think you have 35-40 swords and some 15 cats, plus some spears. My guess is that lizzie has about 100 military units or so, 60-70% of which are spears and pikes. I think she has some 77 or so free ones (16 per civ + 4 per city (52) deity bonus, +3 per city support under republic (25) - I would guess she has 1 worker per city, plus probably 5-10 settlers doing nothing, plus she is supporting a bunch more, so it's going to be tough. Cleo is twice as big as lizzie, plus has harder terrain. Of course, 3-4 of those will stay home in each city, so you will *only* be facing an army about 1.5 your size in units that is tecnically superior
My first thought was the military route - it's risky and I think you *have* to be buying techs from egypt to make it work, or lizze may bring cleo in, and then you are hosed - i don't think you can fight a 2 front war against two deity opponents who are more advanced technically.
If you *do* decide to go the non-military route, starting buying techs with gtp from everyone, and establish an embassy with Cleo. It's a hole you are in, yes - but you are only (I think) 9 techs from mil tradition and sipahi are a great equalizer for you guys. (poly, construction?, feudalism, engineering, invention, gunpowder, chemistry, mettalurgy, mil tradition.
Those are just thoughts, of course. I think the biggest worry for you is that you have saltpeter and lizze doesn't and wants it, so thinks that it is easier to just attack - and if lizzie attacks while you aren't ready, you will probably lose 3-4 cities.
Thanks for the ideas, AT. I think the third plan may be the best (researching to MT will do us little good if we lack saltpeter), but it will take some preparation. We need invention for barricades, right? Anyway, we'll need to trade at least to invention before the war (hopefully, we'll get feudalism or engineering as our free tech), and buying a couple of luxes wouldn't hurt, either--I'd rather have those specialists working tiles, and I don't want to have to put all our money into the lux slider. We should also disband our three spears, along with the curragh and the galley--no need for further exploration (I just checked--China will sell us their territory map for 4 gpt). The first tech to trade for is construction; there are two cities that need aqueducts right now, and all our cities that won't need them are past size 7 already. For those that aren't, we should irrigate a grassland tile or two to let them grow faster once we're in republic. So once we trade to invention, or maybe to gunpowder to see if we or the English have saltpeter, we can get ready for war with England. Either that or we can wait a little while and trade to MT for Sipahis, assuming we have saltpeter.
I have a few more thoughts on the matter, but they'll have to wait; I need to get ready for work. This might be winnable after all.
I have a few more thoughts on the matter, but they'll have to wait; I need to get ready for work. This might be winnable after all.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
You get both fortresses and barricades with construction. Fortresses, btw, come with ZOC.
You're right, of course; I don't know why I thought they came later. I did know about the ZOC, though--that's the whole point of building them in the strategy you outlined, right? So we'll be ready for war before I thought. Still, we should trade for both construction and polytheism if possible and hope for either feudalism or engineering; some trebs or maces will be helpful.
I looked at CAII, and once we switch to republic (but without any cities building wealth), we'll be making 56 gpt with both sliders at zero. After disbanding the five units I mentioned earlier, that brings it to 66. Egypt will sell us construction for 27 gpt and a lux for 11 gpt and 2 gold--a bargain, considering that we get 13 happy faces for less than 13 gpt. 2 luxes from Egypt would cost us 23 gpt--again, a pretty good deal. But it gets better: Sumeria will sell us gems for 9 gpt and 3 gold, and they'll sell us construction for 26 gpt. I'd recommend getting gems and construction from Sumeria and another lux from Egypt for a total of 46 gpt and 5 gold once we're in republic. We should be able to buy one lux before we switch once we disband the spearmen and naval units, but maybe we should wait. With 2 luxes, we shouldn't have to raise the slider too high (probably no higher than 20). Some of these numbers could change, though: the next player, or possibly the player after that, depending on how long anarchy lasts, will have to decide what to do based on the situation then. But we should not hold off any longer on switching to republic, and we must buy construction afterward.
Sorry I seem to keep forgetting I'm up after Norton, which way do we go, science like AT suggest or build a fleet. Research will probably still take long, letting the ai running even further away, but maybe 30 swords won't even be enough to capture GL.
Was gona play now, but don't want to make decission on my own in what path to take. Norton seems to go for science (with or without war?). What do the others think. Do we build a fleet, or do we sell army. Iv we do the latter I fear England or Egypt might attack as we become even weakers then we are right now, stronger we will loose if they attack after we sold out troops. Maybe get Egypt in MA against England? MT is still a very long way. Well I just can't make up my mind on this one. Either way is a long shot, so let me hear your mind.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
for what it's worth: it may make sense to buy construction from egypt, even though it's a tad bit more expensive. Why? Well, while it's not a guarantee, i think that the AI is less likely to break a tech for GPT deal by declaring war... and the worst thing that can happen is for you guys to be fighting a two front war.
A lux for GPT deal would have the same effect, right? That's why I wanted to buy a lux from Egypt and get construction from Sumeria. It's ony a 1 gpt difference, though, so maybe we should buy it from Egypt after all.
nerovats said:
I wanted to follow the third course of action AT suggested: trade with Egypt and go to war against England, using barricades to set up a Funnel of Doom leading to Izmit, which would be left empty to bait English forces. We'd still need to prepare a little bit. We need to buy construction, both for barricades and for aqueducts (get as many cities as we can to size 7 for the extra unit support), and it might not hurt to buy polytheism as well if we can afford it since it and construction are the only AA techs left. The war against England will be much easier if we at least have maces or trebs.
If you don't hear from anyone else in the next day or so, do what you think best, but I'd advise against any action before the switch to republic.
Pre-turn
Lower science to 0% to get gold, republic now in 6
buy construction form Egypt for 27gpt
560AD
Suez court->market
send workers north to build fortresses
570AD
Ankara harbor->market
580AD
stop the galley which is on automove will disband it next turn
IBT
Egypt starts on Magellan
590AD
disband galley
first fortres complete start upgrade to barricade
600AD
republic in start revolt, get 4 turn anarchy
some cities shrink because of entertainers. Change them back better to riot 1 turn then to loose pop.
IBT
England moves lots of workers trough our territory
610AD
Keep building fortresses
620AD
move swords noth as they won't give happiness anymore, just keep some around to cope with eventual landings and some in south to guard against egypt
630AD
Building goes slow in anarchy
640AD
Will be back in control in 1 turn
IBT
Sumeria completes Magellan
650AD
We're a republic, but incense and spices for 18gpt and WM from Egypt
lux to 10% still need lot's of entertainers but can't raise lux higher am now even losing gold
Have to sell rax of Antalya to prevent auto selling something
660AD
buy gems from sumeria for 12gpt
at 100% tax we only make 9gpt now but some markets are almost complete.
Building fortresses goes slowly but steadily.
View attachment Osman_660_AD.SAV
Lkysam is up
Lower science to 0% to get gold, republic now in 6
buy construction form Egypt for 27gpt
560AD
Suez court->market
send workers north to build fortresses
570AD
Ankara harbor->market
580AD
stop the galley which is on automove will disband it next turn
IBT
Egypt starts on Magellan
590AD
disband galley
first fortres complete start upgrade to barricade
600AD
republic in start revolt, get 4 turn anarchy
some cities shrink because of entertainers. Change them back better to riot 1 turn then to loose pop.
IBT
England moves lots of workers trough our territory
610AD
Keep building fortresses
620AD
move swords noth as they won't give happiness anymore, just keep some around to cope with eventual landings and some in south to guard against egypt
630AD
Building goes slow in anarchy
640AD
Will be back in control in 1 turn
IBT
Sumeria completes Magellan
650AD
We're a republic, but incense and spices for 18gpt and WM from Egypt
lux to 10% still need lot's of entertainers but can't raise lux higher am now even losing gold
Have to sell rax of Antalya to prevent auto selling something
660AD
buy gems from sumeria for 12gpt
at 100% tax we only make 9gpt now but some markets are almost complete.
Building fortresses goes slowly but steadily.
View attachment Osman_660_AD.SAV
Lkysam is up
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