Empathy may be bad for the health

Because if they were treated any worse than the native women they would have to be killed. As TF pointed out a primitive society doesn't have enough margins to support prisoners. We like to pretend that primitive humans were like modern humans without technology; full of class distinctions, social gaming strategies, and all the other BS ego games we play, but they wouldn't be able to afford such luxuries.

I dunno about that tim, bs ego games (specifically the ability to manipulate) seems like a pretty advantageous evolutionary trait...the whole "hunter gatherers were so egalitarian" stuff seems pretty suspect to me, especially when taking evolution into consideration....seems that the more egalitarian a population is, the greater the tendency for natural selection towards LESS sexual dimorphism, certainly not the case in homo sapiens...which brings another interesting question to the thread...is the empathy/selfishness "balance" let's say, on par with other factors that make males and females different?
 
What gives you that idea? I don't think women were treated badly, necessarily. You do?

There is a lot more wiggle room for social differentiation than being a prisoner or not. Status and respect are universal phenomena in human groups, would you agree? And from there to different defacto rights and defacto classes, the road is IMO not long.
Going by what TF said, I would expect captured women to be at the very end of the social order, in general. They do a lot of what others do, but they don't matter as much as others. Understand what I am saying? Their voice counts less and they will have to live with more harsh treatment, in general. Only because of where they came from. And that is what I would call a social class.
And you -, you expect captured women whose family and friends you just brutally murdered and you have probably raped more than once to just smoothly integrate and become equals with the other women and entirely normal group members?

In a primitive society there actually isn't a whole lot of this "wiggle room." Women get used for sex...and modern people think of that as rape. The native women get used the same way as the captured women, and none of them think of it as rape...it's just the way it is. Similarly, their previous tribe lost a battle over territory, resources, or possession of the women, which is more or less the same thing. Modern people see this as "brutal murder." Their previous tribe probably had done the same thing to others that their new tribe did to their old tribe. To them it's just the way things are done. Modern people see what happens to them as "enslavement" while the primitive recognizes that in the three choices; kill them, abandon them, or take them in, they got the best available deal.

The primitive society doesn't have the resources to provide a lot of stratification.
 
Now I feel like you are just saying stuff. What actually is so resource-intensive about treating people differently? You haven't actually spelled that out, at all. The argument against prisoners is: They can't work. Against slaves it goes: They can't work freely enough / would have to be constantly watched over etc. Okay, both are fair arguments. It is clear how they would be resource-demanding.
Not so with simply treating some better and some worse. With some having a lower social standing and others a higher social standing, which means different defacto rights. Those rights aren't institutionalized. There is no extra, costly, enforcement apparatus or whatever. They just emerge out of the balance of social standing. A basic social order is virtually free.
And I ask again: What gives you the idea that all women were subjugated like that? To fall in love is not a modern invention, you may care to notice, but basic biology. And TF himself has said a lot on this forum about how women were often more equal to men than they were later on when civilization hit. And I would add, native women probably a lot more so than captured women.
 
Brute force. The social constructs that offset brute force are a luxury. When a group operates close to the margins they can't afford those luxuries. Therefore primitive human groups, just like other primate groups, would most likely operate by brute force and not social stratification.
 
You made the same mistake you always make - thinking that women are objects, instead of granting them personhood.

Looking at modern apes and most other pack animals, females show about the same sex drive that men show, there's absolutely no reason to assume that normal prehistorical sex was a "Men force themselves onto women, and women let them to it because they have no choice"-scenario, other than your ideological bias.
 
Brute force. The social constructs that offset brute force are a luxury. When a group operates close to the margins they can't afford those luxuries. Therefore primitive human groups, just like other primate groups, would most likely operate by brute force and not social stratification.
Brute force is itself a luxury, in societies like this. You can't go clubbing everyone you disagree with when they represent a vital source of labour; start down that road, and soon half the tribe are dead from split skulls and the other half from starvation. Violence within the tribe is a last resort against extreme deviance, something when a member of the group becomes so problematic that his labour fails to offset his disruptiveness. It's more likely that, as Terx suggests, subtle distinctions in status were used to control newcomers, because these allow the group to hold a potentially disruptive newcomer at arm's length without either losing a significant amount of labour or introducing dynamics that would themselves prove disruptive.

The reason that warriors in, say, the Norse sagas are constantly slaughtering each other isn't because they were primitive, but on the contrary, a sign of their social complexity, because it indicated a society with enough of a material surplus to support not only a social structure that could spare a healthy adult male over some matter of pride, honour or ambition, but could support an entire social strata with nothing better to do than build elaborate rituals around their own material disposability. Hunter-gather societies, which live maybe a week from starvation in the best of times, don't have that kind of luxury.

You made the same mistake you always make - thinking that women are objects, instead of granting them personhood.

Looking at modern apes and most other pack animals, females show about the same sex drive that men show, there's absolutely no reason to assume that normal prehistorical sex was a "Men force themselves onto women, and women let them to it because they have no choice"-scenario, other than your ideological bias.
Eh, the dynamic isn't so much active men and passive women as active captors and passive captives, it's just that women are far more likely to be captives than men: adult men are much harder to integrate into a community than women and children, so it was more likely that they'd just be killed, while children are relatively easy to integrate so require no special status. Adult women are tricky because they're already fully-grown people with an established identities, and that throws up a particularly tricky dynamic. Indeed, leadership in navigating that identity was often taken up by the older women of a group; among the Eastern Woodlands Indians, it fell to the clan matrons to decide which captives would be adopted into the group, among which families the captives would be distributed, and to oversee the rituals of adoption.

I do agree that the active captor/passive captive dynamic is itself an over-simplification, and captives could certainly come to control their own destiny to a considerable extent, but we're essentially talking about Day One of their captivity, about how a group deals with newcomers, rather than the longer-term prospects for those newcomers.
 
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Eh, the dynamic isn't so much active men and passive women as active captors and passive captives, it's just that women are far more likely to be captives than men: adult men are much harder to integrate into a community than women and children, so it was more likely that they'd just be killed, while children are relatively easy to integrate so require no special status. Adult women are tricky because they're already fully-grown people with an established identities, and that throws up a particularly tricky dynamic. Indeed, leadership in navigating that identity was often taken up by the older women of a group; among the Eastern Woodlands Indians, it fell to the clan matrons to decide which captives would be adopted into the group, among which families the captives would be distributed, and to oversee the rituals of adoption.

I do agree that the active captor/passive captive dynamic is itself an over-simplification, and captives could certainly come to control their own destiny to a considerable extent, but we're essentially talking about Day One of their captivity, about how a group deals with newcomers, rather than the longer-term prospects for those newcomers.
I agree with this, but his opinion was that:

Women get used for sex...and modern people think of that as rape. The native women get used the same way as the captured women, and none of them think of it as rape...it's just the way it is.

It's not about slaves, is that he thinks that _all_ women were "used for sex", and that it was in no way consensual, or something that the women were interested in it, too. It's complicated for slaves, but he's talking about ALL women. That's simply nowhere near what we can assume to be true.
 
It's not about slaves, is that he thinks that _all_ women were "used for sex", and that it was in no way consensual, or something that the women were interested in it, too. It's complicated for slaves, but he's talking about ALL women. That's simply nowhere near what we can assume to be true.

I don't have a horse in this race, but being used for something and consenting to it are not mutually exclusive circumstances.
 
In a primitive society there actually isn't a whole lot of this "wiggle room." Women get used for sex...and modern people think of that as rape.
 
I'm certain you're capable of acknowledging the nuance behind forced or circumstantial consent. To imply all sexual couplings in ancient human history were the story of sex-positive equality posters seems suspect, and it's important to also realize that being willing doesn't necessarily mean having the proper agency to dictate those terms if it came down to it.
 
You're switching the arguments. I did not claim that all sexual couplings in ancient human history were consensual, I claim that the default sexual encounter probably was.

Timsup2nothin is the one making the claim that women were used to sex (as a generalized statement, there is no "sometimes" in there), instead of acknowledging that women are sexual beings who also like sex and probably didn't need to be "used for sex", because they too wanted it as the default situation.
 
You're switching the arguments. I did not claim that all sexual couplings in ancient human history were consensual, I claim that the default sexual encounter probably was.

Timsup2nothin is the one making the claim that women were used to sex (as a generalized statement, there is no "sometimes" in there), instead of acknowledging that women are sexual beings who also like sex and probably didn't need to be "used for sex", because they too wanted it as the default situation.

Your clarification does not change my previous post.

Specifically: "... and it's important to also realize that being willing doesn't necessarily mean having the proper agency to dictate those terms if it came down to it."
 
So what's your argument then? That clearly doesn't apply to prehistorical women.
 
You made the same mistake you always make - thinking that women are objects, instead of granting them personhood.

Looking at modern apes and most other pack animals, females show about the same sex drive that men show, there's absolutely no reason to assume that normal prehistorical sex was a "Men force themselves onto women, and women let them to it because they have no choice"-scenario, other than your ideological bias.

I agree. Without a bunch of social mores making a mess of things sex generally isn't forced on either side.
 
.....Eh, the dynamic isn't so much active men and passive women as active captors and passive captives, it's just that women are far more likely to be captives than men: adult men are much harder to integrate into a community than women and children, so it was more likely that they'd just be killed, while children are relatively easy to integrate so require no special status. Adult women are tricky because they're already fully-grown people with an established identities, and that throws up a particularly tricky dynamic. Indeed, leadership in navigating that identity was often taken up by the older women of a group; among the Eastern Woodlands Indians, it fell to the clan matrons to decide which captives would be adopted into the group, among which families the captives would be distributed, and to oversee the rituals of adoption.

I do agree that the active captor/passive captive dynamic is itself an over-simplification, and captives could certainly come to control their own destiny to a considerable extent, but we're essentially talking about Day One of their captivity, about how a group deals with newcomers, rather than the longer-term prospects for those newcomers.

Why?...why are women more likely to be captives and men harder to integrate??
 
Brute force is itself a luxury, in societies like this. You can't go clubbing everyone you disagree with when they represent a vital source of labour; start down that road, and soon half the tribe are dead from split skulls and the other half from starvation. Violence within the tribe is a last resort against extreme deviance, something when a member of the group becomes so problematic that his labour fails to offset his disruptiveness.

Agreed, in a way. Thing is that the range of behavior that isn't problematic is extremely narrow. Primitive people would do what was expected of them, and not much else, because there wasn't time for much else. The "brute force" that would keep them in line doesn't involve 'clubbing them,' it's the simple weight of 'cooperate or go hungry' that is everpresent in the situation. Maybe a newcomer would get the second bowl where a long term member of the tribe would get the first bowl, but it isn't like anyone could get an extra bowl. Maybe the old hand would get a friendlier grunt in passing than the newcomer would. There just isn't room for a vast difference in quality of life between "most respected root gatherer," "lowest member of the tribe," and everyone in between.
 
Tim, what is your assessment of tribal society is based on? Sounds like some kind of stone age fantasy.
 
Tim, what is your assessment of tribal society is based on? Sounds like some kind of stone age fantasy.

I think there is a lot more fantasy involved in thinking that primitive tribes are made up of little modern family units living in huts instead of houses and sharing a sweet kiss as they set off to foot commute to their respective hunting and gathering jobs.

Tim's assessment may be speculations without him having serious empirical data but it seems highly plausible to me.

This is accurate. Add that there is no empirical data.
 
I think there is a lot more fantasy involved in thinking that primitive tribes are made up of little modern family units living in huts instead of houses and sharing a sweet kiss as they set off to foot commute to their respective hunting and gathering jobs.

So this is not a documentary:dunno:


Seriously now, i dont think most anthopologists today believe that hunter gathers were constantly working lest they starve....in fact, many if not most think they worked far fewer hours than modern humans.
 
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